I'm new and I have a few questions already!

[Ozekifan 0]

Hi there everyone, I just joined the forum and am bitterly disappointed I could not post a new topic under the Sumo discussion, so here goes.

Is there a another Sumo league for people that are 18 years of age. For example, like junior league, one not as lavish as the pro bashos we are seeing where the top rikishis are battling? If so, what are the ranks within the junior sumo for rikishis under age 18?

Is there a promotion system in the amateur league? How does it work?

When do they usually have their amateur bashos?

Do they still have 15 days in a tournament?

Side question: did Akebono jump straight to the pro league in his first basho? Facing of Yokozunas and Ozekis?

Thank you so much, your answers would prove invaluable for my research.

Be well, all.

[Doyobi 0]

Akebono: http://sumodb.sumogames.com/Rikishi.aspx?r=1

[Ozekifan 0]

Thanks, I was just looking at that from a link my friend sent me. However, I still need more details within the amateur sumo, their ranking system, etc, time of tournaments.

But nonetheless, thank you Doyobi :)!

[Kintamayama 47,316]

There is only one "professional" league and that's Ozumo in Japan.

Amateur is nice, but has nothing to do with the pros. There are no leagues, just tournaments that have no bearing on "real" sumo, other than the occasional amateur usually from a college who decides to join. There is no junior league in the "pros". you can join if you are between 15-23. but if you are not Japanese, that's a whole different ballgame there.

Akebono climbed the ladder just like anyone else in the pros. Whoever joins Ozumo "jumps straight into the pros" but in the lowest division, from where he must make his way diligently to the top or not.

[Ozekifan 0]

Thank you for your response, so to get this straight, would it be completed unrealistic for a young foreigner to compete at a Jonokuchi division?

And the basho shown on NHK with the Yokozunas and Ozekis, that is a Makuuchi division? When are the Jonokuchi matches shown?

Would jonokuchi rikishis ever face Makucchi rikishis? Or must they get promoted to the highest division of Makucchi in order to fight the top rikishis?

Thank you again :)!

[Manekineko 200]

Thank you for your response, so to get this straight, would it be completed unrealistic for a young foreigner to compete at a Jonokuchi division?

It would not, but the said foreigner would first have to be recruited by a sumo stable (heya) and spend some time in Japan, then complete a so-called mae-zumo basho to qualify. The perfect illustration is the new Egyptian wrestler, Oosunaarashi, who qualified this basho and will compete in jonokuchi in May. In the linked topic you can follow his path to professional sumo.

And the basho shown on NHK with the Yokozunas and Ozekis, that is a Makuuchi division? When are the Jonokuchi matches shown?

Yes, that's makuuchi. Jonokuchi is not shown on TV, but is shown on stream, and you can find many or all bouts on youtube. I think that the excellent Sumo Reference site also now links videos to all bouts.

Would jonokuchi rikishis ever face Makucchi rikishis? Or must they get promoted to the highest division of Makucchi in order to fight the top rikishis?

They would have to get promoted to makuuchi first. In some cases juryo rikishi (one division below makuuchi) fight the lower-ranked makuuchi rikishi.

Thank you again :)!

You're welcome. Feel free to ask more!

Edited March 21, 2012 by Manekineko
additional links

[Ozekifan 0]

Thank you so much Manekineko! Those really helped me!

A few more questions:

Could a new rikishi choose their own Shikona? Do they have to choose it before their mae-zumo?

Would it be unnatural to see a slim built rikishi in the jonokuchi suddenly gaining weight in a period of 6 months?

Are there heyas out there with only Jonokuchi, Sandanme, and Makushita division rikishis?

What are the promotion criteria from Jonokuchi to Sandanme?

When and where does the mae-zumo usually take place?

Could a Jonokuchi or a Sandanme rikishi ever wear a keshō-mawashi during a charity exhibition event?

Are rikishis from foreign countries allowed to perform their own cultural dance in a dohyo?

Thank you again for answering my questions! Be well, all!

[Kintamayama 47,316]

Could a new rikishi choose their own Shikona? Do they have to choose it before their mae-zumo?

Sometimes he may bring an idea with him, but usually his Oyakata or stablemaster decides for him. Other times, he sticks with his real name. We've had yokozunae using their real name.

Would it be unnatural to see a slim built rikishi in the jonokuchi suddenly gaining weight in a period of 6 months?

It happens. Also depends on what you mean by "gaining weight" of course. They all do. Except Takanoyama,

Are there heyas out there with only Jonokuchi, Sandanme, and Makushita division rikishis?

Yes there are. Quite a few.

What are the promotion criteria from Jonokuchi to Sandanme?

You have to win more than you lose during a tournament. They have 7 day tournaments down there as opposed to 15 day tournaments ib the top two division. They have to win 4 of 7 to get promoted in the ranks. Google "Banzuke". Familiarize yourself with the ranking system. It's simple. Win 4-promotion. win 5-bigger promotiob. win 6 even bigger promotion. Win 7-you automatically get promoted to the next division regardless of your position.

When and where does the mae-zumo usually take place?

Early days of the tournament-very early in the morning, around 8:40 am before the day starts.

Could a Jonokuchi or a Sandanme rikishi ever wear a keshō-mawashi during a charity exhibition event?

He probably could, but does it have to be charity, or any exhibition? Odd question..

Are rikishis from foreign countries allowed to perform their own cultural dance in a dohyo?

There is no cultural dancing on the dohyo of any type. Foreign rikishi are not allowed to do anything that is not part of the sumo tradition. That goes for the Japanese rikishi as well.

Thank you again for answering my questions! Be well, all!

[Randomitsuki 2,907]

What are the promotion criteria from Jonokuchi to Sandanme?

You have to win more than you lose during a tournament. They have 7 day tournaments down there as opposed to 15 day tournaments ib the top two division. They have to win 4 of 7 to get promoted in the ranks. Google "Banzuke". Familiarize yourself with the ranking system. It's simple. Win 4-promotion. win 5-bigger promotiob. win 6 even bigger promotion. Win 7-you automatically get promoted to the next division regardless of your position.

Small correction: In Jonokuchi, Jonidan, and Sandanme you are automatically promoted to the next highest divisions after winning 7 bouts. In Makushita, it depends. If you are ranked from Makushita 16 to Makushita 60, a 7-0 will promote you to the top of Makushita, but not into Juryo.

Another thing of interest: in nearly all cases, rikishi with the same record are paired against each other. Therefore, winning seven out of seven is quite an accomplishment because you must have defeated others whose records were 0-0, 1-0, 2-0, 3-0, 4-0, 5-0, and 6-0 before meeting you.

[Manekineko 200]

Are there heyas out there with only Jonokuchi, Sandanme, and Makushita division rikishis?

What are the promotion criteria from Jonokuchi to Sandanme?

Because nobody else said it directly - there is a jonidan division between jonokuchi and sandanme. Jonokuchi is really tiny these days. Banzuke.

[Ozekifan 0]

Thank you again for all your invaluable answers! Kintamayama, Randomitsuki and Manekineko. :)

In terms of mae-zumo, aside from the time of the day it starts, what time of the month does it occur? Is it always a fixed date or just before any tournament?

Do Jonokuchi rikishis have a tokoyama that does their top knot already? And are tokoyama like free agents that do top knots door to door for different heyas?

What is the gyoji saying when two rikishis wrestle, it sounds like 'Taga Taga, Tagata'.

If Sumo heyas went beyond the reaches of just the greater Tokyo area, how would they designate prefectures from West to East? Eg, where would Osaka be designated to? Or Toyama?

When Kintamayama mentioned the Jonokuchi to Makushita division having their own basho, does it take place prior to the Makuuchi's basho, early afternoon? Or on a completely different venue and date? If so what are their basho months?

Is it unrealistic for a rikishi to go from Jonokuchi to Juryo within a year? Baruto did in in 8 tournaments, but I wonder if it was 6 bashos per year even from the Jonokuchi up to Juryo, if so that would have taken him a year and a half?

Is it a better probability that a really good rikishi rise from Jonokuchi to Makushita within 9 months from March to December? Assuming the mae-zumo could take place in March and they head straight for their first basho in Jonokuchi during March?

Again, thank you for answering my listless questions! You are all very knowledgeable.

Be well, all.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Ozekifan

[Randomitsuki 2,907]

In terms of mae-zumo, aside from the time of the day it starts, what time of the month does it occur? Is it always a fixed date or just before any tournament?

All of ozumo ("profressional sumo", if you will) is organized around the six tournaments (hon-basho or in short: basho) a year. Each basho runs for 15 days and starts with bouts from the lowest division up to Makuuchi: Because the number of mae-zumo bouts is relatively small, they only take place on selected days of a basho (usually between day 3 and day 6, if I am not mistaken).

Do Jonokuchi rikishis have a tokoyama that does their top knot already? And are tokoyama like free agents that do top knots door to door for different heyas?

Tokoyama are members of a heya, and they are responsible for dressing the hair of all rikishi in that heya. Many smaller heya do not have a tokoyama, and as far as I know they borrow a tokoyama from a larger one.

What is the gyoji saying when two rikishis wrestle, it sounds like 'Taga Taga, Tagata'.

The expression you are referring to is "nokotta nokotta", and is announced while a bout is in full swing, Once the action stalls, the gyoji shouts "hakke yoi". There are numerous other expressions that can be found by browsing through the Forum's glossary.

When Kintamayama mentioned the Jonokuchi to Makushita division having their own basho, does it take place prior to the Makuuchi's basho, early afternoon? Or on a completely different venue and date? If so what are their basho months?

See above. Every ozumo action takes places during those 15 days on odd months. The daily action starts with Jonokuchi early in the morning (about 9 AM), and then it goes on until 6 PM with the last Makuuchi bout.

[Randomitsuki 2,907]

Is it unrealistic for a rikishi to go from Jonokuchi to Juryo within a year? Baruto did in in 8 tournaments, but I wonder if it was 6 bashos per year even from the Jonokuchi up to Juryo, if so that would have taken him a year and a half?

Is it a better probability that a really good rikishi rise from Jonokuchi to Makushita within 9 months from March to December? Assuming the mae-zumo could take place in March and they head straight for their first basho in Jonokuchi during March?

At the moment, the fastest possible rise would be something like this:

March (Haru Basho, Osaka): mae-zumo

May (Natsu Basho, Tokyo): Jonokuchi

July (Nagoya Basho, Nagoya). around Jonidan 10

September (Aki Basho, Tokyo): around Sandanme 15

November (Kyushu Basho, Fukuoka): around Makushita 12

January (Hatsu Basho, Tokyo): lowest Juryo

So yes, in principle you could make it within a year. In fact, just last basho Sakumayama was on the verge of getting the Juryo promotion in record time and would have almost achieved something that nobody ever has managed before. In his sixth basho, he was in the so-called promotion zone at Makushita 15, and if he had gone 7-0 he would have been promoted to Juryo in his seventh basho. Alas, he lost his last bout after going 6-0.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Randomitsuki

[Ozekifan 0]

Thank you very much Randomituski! That is exactly what I wanted, a possible rise list! And I really liked how my questions were answered, thank you again!

A few more questions :)

What are the usual techniques rikishis apply in the lower divisions? Which are the 'master level' techniques? Could a Yokozuna apply a basic technique from his Jonokuchi days but perfect it in such a way it becomes vastly more effective? Of course that is the definition of improvement, right?

So basically, Jonokuchi rikishis would perform jonokuchi level techniques?

Just in case you missed it: If Sumo heyas went beyond the reaches of just the greater Tokyo area, how would they designate prefectures from West to East? Eg, where would Osaka be designated to? Or Toyama? I know they are used nowadays merely for organizational purposes.

Another question, I read from Akebono's book, though not very clear in a few facts, when he first started he rose at 5am, sometimes earlier, cleaned up, practiced, helped cook food, serve other rikishis to eat then ate and then finally cleaned up, and showered by that time it would have been around 8? Then they sleep and train again. My question is what are their daily routines and schedules for the day? What time do they rise,train,eat,shower, rest, etc, a rough estimate.

As rikishis move up the division, would they do less and less choirs, and not have to rise up so early? Eg, Jonokuchi rikishi rises and works at 5 and cleans toilets, and a lot more, but a Jonidan rikishi does a little less, e.g., rise at 5:30. and so on.

Thank you again!

Be well, all.

[Ozekifan 0]

One more time, to get my theory right:

March (Haru Basho, Osaka): mae-zumo

Rikishi wins 4-3, gets promoted to Jonokuchi.

May (Natsu Basho, Tokyo): Jonokuchi

Rikishi wins 4-3, gets promoted to Jonidan

July (Nagoya Basho, Nagoya). around Jonidan 10

Rikishi wins 5-2, gets promoted to Sandanme

September (Aki Basho, Tokyo): around Sandanme 15

Rikishi wins 6-1, gets promoted to Makushita

November (Kyushu Basho, Fukuoka): around Makushita 12

And a rikishi in Makushita must have a perfect 7-0 to the next promotion of Juryo?

Thank you again!

Be well, all.

[Yubinhaad 11,975]

One more time, to get my theory right:

March (Haru Basho, Osaka): mae-zumo

Rikishi wins 4-3, gets promoted to Jonokuchi.

May (Natsu Basho, Tokyo): Jonokuchi

Rikishi wins 4-3, gets promoted to Jonidan

July (Nagoya Basho, Nagoya). around Jonidan 10

Rikishi wins 5-2, gets promoted to Sandanme

September (Aki Basho, Tokyo): around Sandanme 15

Rikishi wins 6-1, gets promoted to Makushita

November (Kyushu Basho, Fukuoka): around Makushita 12

And a rikishi in Makushita must have a perfect 7-0 to the next promotion of Juryo?

It's not quite as straightforward as that. Compare these two examples:

Chiyoo / Sakumayama

Notice how Chiyoo started his career with four consecutive 5-2 records? They took him to Sandanme. Now compare to Sakumayama, who started his career with three consecutive 7-0 records, which took him to Makushita.

Chiyoo is now also in Makushita, but it took him more tournaments to get there because his results weren't quite as spectacular as those of Sakumayama.

As for promotion to Juryo, it depends what your rank is to start with. If you're ranked below Makushita 15 it can't be done, while a 7-0 from Mk12-15 is supposed to be automatic promotion. If you're ranked at Makushita 1, on the other hand, a simple 4-3 would be enough.

[Asashosakari 20,276]

Just in case you missed it: If Sumo heyas went beyond the reaches of just the greater Tokyo area, how would they designate prefectures from West to East? Eg, where would Osaka be designated to? Or Toyama? I know they are used nowadays merely for organizational purposes.

I'm not sure I understand the question, but I'll give it a try: While the heyas may all be located in the Tokyo area, professional rikishi come from all over Japan. In any case, the East/West sides on the banzuke aren't connected to either the rikishis' origins nor the stables' locations (not nowadays anyway), so "designating prefectures" makes no sense in this context.

[Ozekifan 0]

One more time, to get my theory right:

March (Haru Basho, Osaka): mae-zumo

Rikishi wins 4-3, gets promoted to Jonokuchi.

May (Natsu Basho, Tokyo): Jonokuchi

Rikishi wins 4-3, gets promoted to Jonidan

July (Nagoya Basho, Nagoya). around Jonidan 10

Rikishi wins 5-2, gets promoted to Sandanme

September (Aki Basho, Tokyo): around Sandanme 15

Rikishi wins 6-1, gets promoted to Makushita

November (Kyushu Basho, Fukuoka): around Makushita 12

And a rikishi in Makushita must have a perfect 7-0 to the next promotion of Juryo?

It's not quite as straightforward as that. Compare these two examples:

Chiyoo / Sakumayama

Notice how Chiyoo started his career with four consecutive 5-2 records? They took him to Sandanme. Now compare to Sakumayama, who started his career with three consecutive 7-0 records, which took him to Makushita.

Chiyoo is now also in Makushita, but it took him more tournaments to get there because his results weren't quite as spectacular as those of Sakumayama.

As for promotion to Juryo, it depends what your rank is to start with. If you're ranked below Makushita 15 it can't be done, while a 7-0 from Mk12-15 is supposed to be automatic promotion. If you're ranked at Makushita 1, on the other hand, a simple 4-3 would be enough.

I've read through a few sumo glossary and ranking systems, so in essence, a Makushita 1 is higher ranking than a Makushita 15? Or have I got that wrong?

Another question: Are there celebrations held by your Oyakata when you get promoted, from Jonokuchi to Jonidan, etc. If so what does the celebrations entail? Sake or some small festival? And do you do less and less choirs?

Again thank you for all your answers, appreciate it humbly.

Be well, all.

[Andonishiki 171]

looks like u are writing a PhD thesis about the sports ?

or a ' extensive'guide for young foreigners to become a sekitori' ?

pls post it here, once it's done :-)))

all celebrations always include beer, loads of beer !

and after that sake !

..... I still do remember my hangover after the kitanoumi-beya senshuuraku party in Jan 2011.....

jonokuchi to jonidan is not a big step though, look at the small number of people in jonidan

and dont forget that many wrestlers spend all their active time in lower divisions with promotions, then demotions...

so you wont celebrate every promotion... there's just too many

and if you climb to sandanme the 6th time, you probably don't need one, do you ?

makushita 1 east is the highest makushita rank (and not a very lucky one, because as lowest juryo which is 14 west, you get a salary !)

[Andonishiki 171]

one suggestion - if you want to learn more, you should start your career as a cyber-sumotori !

go to www.strongoak.net/sb and start with reading the rules of the 19 games on that page.

and then just start playing !

on top of those games, there are more in this forum....and elsewhere.

and dont forget to tell all sumo-friends !

start with your own shikona in jonokuchi ( not enough players for more divisions, so you can pass-by mae-zumo ;-)

then fight your way up towards makushita

get promoted !

celebrate with your oyakata (wife works as well ;-)

have a few beers (most Locals prefer Japanese brand Yebisu as their favorite !)

http://www.sunnypages.jp/travel_guide/tokyo_leisure/museums/Beer+Museum+Yebisu/1805

kanpai

[Doitsuyama 1,260]

If Sumo heyas went beyond the reaches of just the greater Tokyo area, how would they designate prefectures from West to East? Eg, where would Osaka be designated to? Or Toyama?

What for would they do that? The regional East-West system for the banzuke is long outdated. Anyway, I'm sure Osaka counts as West. Since Toyama belongs to the Hokuriku region I think it's counted to the East. Actually, there are anually Eastern and Western amateur sumo tournaments and maybe Asashosakari (who transcribes results from them) can say more.

Is it unrealistic for a rikishi to go from Jonokuchi to Juryo within a year? Baruto did in in 8 tournaments, but I wonder if it was 6 bashos per year even from the Jonokuchi up to Juryo, if so that would have taken him a year and a half?

Is it a better probability that a really good rikishi rise from Jonokuchi to Makushita within 9 months from March to December? Assuming the mae-zumo could take place in March and they head straight for their first basho in Jonokuchi during March?

Since the first basho is reserved for mae-zumo (and for foreigners it's reserved for other stuff with mae-zumo only in the second basho), a really, really good rikishi would usually need 6 basho until juryo: mae-zumo, jonokuchi, jonidan, sandanme, makushita and another in makushita. Even this is very rare since even very good rikishi tend to suffer the occasional loss, but we seem to have one prime example right now: Sakumayama.

[Randomitsuki 2,907]

One more time, to get my theory right:

March (Haru Basho, Osaka): mae-zumo

Rikishi wins 4-3, gets promoted to Jonokuchi.

May (Natsu Basho, Tokyo): Jonokuchi

Rikishi wins 4-3, gets promoted to Jonidan

July (Nagoya Basho, Nagoya). around Jonidan 10

Rikishi wins 5-2, gets promoted to Sandanme

September (Aki Basho, Tokyo): around Sandanme 15

Rikishi wins 6-1, gets promoted to Makushita

November (Kyushu Basho, Fukuoka): around Makushita 12

And a rikishi in Makushita must have a perfect 7-0 to the next promotion of Juryo?

Just to make that clear: the example of fastest rise would involve winning every tournament with 7-0 (Jonokuchi, Jonidan, Sandanme, Makushita). A 4-3 does not get you that far at all. The general rules of thumb for promotion are: the more you win, the more you rise. And the lower you are on the banzuke, the more you rise with a given record.

In Jonokuchi, a 4-3 will rise you about 40 full ranks (between Jonidan 70 and 80 right now); a 7-0 will rise you more than 100 ranks.

In mid-Jonidan, a 4-3 will move you up 25 full ranks, a 7-0 will rise you exact 100 ranks.

in mid-Sandanme, a 4-3 will improve you by about 15 full ranks, a 7-0 about 80 ranks.

In mid-Makushita, 4-3 is worth for only about 6 ranks, and a 7-0 for about 25 ranks.

And at the top of Makushita, a 4-3 sometimes improves you by only one or two ranks, and a 7-0 by about 7 ranks.

[Ozekifan 0]

Andonishiki, thank you for you reply! Really helpful to have known the celebration process, but do the promoted rikishis immediately get less choirs to do?

I can't afford to play that sumo game hover interesting it is, I have a lot of study to do but I find Sumo a good way to de-stress!

Doitsuyama, thank you also for your helpful insight on the promotion pace. I think I remember seeing your posts before I was a member here, you update people with regards to basho results and fixtures? Very nice!

Randomitsuki, thank you again for your response! When you say they rise in ranks within their division, how many ranks are there inside Jonokuchi, Jonidan, Sandanme, and Makushita? Does it depend on how many rikishis are in that division?

If I had the honor of being a rikishi, at Jonokuchi I do 4-3 n my first basho, then 6-1 in basho 2, would that be enough for a promotion to Jonidan? Just a little confused about how the ranking points work. But nonetheless very interesting!

Thank you again for answering my bombardment of questions, sometimes you could stare so hard at Wiki or other Sumo info sites and still won't get the answers out, you literally need to ask in order to absorb, like a lecture! But rest assured I am also reading a lot of Sumo books and websites at the same time.

Be well, all.

[Manekineko 200]

What are the usual techniques rikishis apply in the lower divisions? Which are the 'master level' techniques? Could a Yokozuna apply a basic technique from his Jonokuchi days but perfect it in such a way it becomes vastly more effective? Of course that is the definition of improvement, right?

I'm not really qualified to reply to this one, but here's a try:

Some rikishi stick to their favorite winning techniques all their careers, simply getting better at them. Some learn new and more effective ones as they develop. Some are forced to switch their wrestling style because of an injury that made their current style too weak to continue winning with. Some techniques show great disparity of strength/skill between the victor and the defeated... but I wouldn't call any of the techniques "master level". Some are considered more "proper", such as belt-holding ones. Classics are yorikiri and the throws such as uwatenage and shitatenage. But lately pushing techniques (various oshi-somethings) are more prevalent.

As rikishis move up the division, would they do less and less choirs, and not have to rise up so early? Eg, Jonokuchi rikishi rises and works at 5 and cleans toilets, and a lot more, but a Jonidan rikishi does a little less, e.g., rise at 5:30. and so on.

Certainly, since their chores decrease. But some rikishi remain "specialists" (cooks, for example), and the schedule and practice varies from heya to heya, since they vary in number of rikishi and shisho's (stable master's) approach to running the heya. You can probably find several threads describing heya life here and in other sumo sources.

Doitsuyama, thank you also for your helpful insight on the promotion pace. I think I remember seeing your posts before I was a member here, you update people with regards to basho results and fixtures? Very nice!

Nice isn't enough to describe him. Sumo reference site is his work...

Randomitsuki, thank you again for your response! When you say they rise in ranks within their division, how many ranks are there inside Jonokuchi, Jonidan, Sandanme, and Makushita? Does it depend on how many rikishis are in that division?

Short answer: yes. Long answer - check the banzuke at aforementioned Sumo Reference, and you can see how the size of divisions fluctuates. Makushita and Sandanme change size less often than Jonidan and Jonokuchi. Each division has as many ranks as number of rikishi divided by 2 (each rank has one rikishi on "east" and another on "west" side).

Edited March 22, 2012 by Manekineko

[Ozekifan 0]

Manekineko, that was a marvelous response! Thank you for your answers and continuing help.

Just one more question for tonight:

I have looked at the heya section and I haven't been able to come up with an accurate timetable for a new rikishi's lifestyle, e.g.. 5:00 wake up, clean, 6:00 training, what time they eat, clean again, sleep and when do they wake up in the afternoon again? How much free time are they allowed, how many hours specifically? And when must they go to sleep?

I also read from wiki, that when they get promoted from Jonokuchi to Jonidan, they get better kimono garments? And possibly a higher allowance in money?

I shall do some deeper research with the banzuke. Just a tiny bit confused how the points/ rank work but I'm sure in time I will understand more, I have already learnt a lot from you guys today!

Be well, all.