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Fukurou

Aki 2011 - Absent/Withdraw/Return

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So this is what happened: Three bouts were fusen because one of the rikishi was late. Irie was late. "The neighborhood bus was 30 minutes late, I heard, and then the bouts themselves progressed rather quickly, "said his shisho Tamanoi. "Usually, arriving 40 minutes before my bout is enough, but the bouts progressed much faster," said Kiryuu from Sandanme who missed his bout as well.

It has happened before that if a rikishi who is running late and realises that he will not be in time phones the Kokugikan, the bout is moved on and he does not forfeit, provided that he is there for the later time. Since we are well aware that transport is still quite likely to be running a bit late in post-earthquake Tokyo, this seems extraordinarily sloppy behaviour.

Orion

The problem here is... that the rikishi can't call the kokugikan if their bus/train is late sometimes. With the new rule that they must leave their phones at the gate when they enter and can't take them inside the kokugikan. Many do this but many leave them at the heya because it is troublesome and/or some boys said they don't like that the kyokai staff could go through their phones and read their emails, etc.. so they just leave them at the heya now.

Because of the kyokai rule they were not able to call ahead so I blame the kyokai! In the past they easily could have rearranged the bouts as I saw many times.

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Kotooshu is kyujo from Day 7.

Edited by Asojima

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Talked with Azumazeki oyakata (though I still prefer to call him Ushiomaru :-) ) and he said Kaonishi is not 100% but wants to come back to get kachikoshi!! So wishing him luck and hope he is ok!!

Sotairyu who was injured and pulled the ligaments/muscles/? what do you call this in English now I forget... he fell with his legs spread like doing a split at the edge of the dohyo today. pulled the muscles or whatever that would be on the inside of the upper leg to his crotch.. went to the hospital and had an X-ray and nothing is torn, just strained. He is hurting like hell but the oyakata said tonight he will take it one day at a time, maybe he can come back in two days. Unless a miracle happens tonight Takarafuji will get a fusensho on Sunday!

It was so sad that this happened to Sotairyu today when his parents made the trip from Fukushima to see him with two other friends. And now his father said "we seem to be bad luck... " (Sign of approval...)

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Talked with Azumazeki oyakata (though I still prefer to call him Ushiomaru :-) ) and he said Kaonishi is not 100% but wants to come back to get kachikoshi!! So wishing him luck and hope he is ok!!

Sotairyu who was injured and pulled the ligaments/muscles/? what do you call this in English now I forget... he fell with his legs spread like doing a split at the edge of the dohyo today. pulled the muscles or whatever that would be on the inside of the upper leg to his crotch..

Maybe it is the Groin?

Thank you for the information and I hope they both are not rushing back too soon. It would be a shame if they injure themselves further. (In jonokuchi...)

could be..I feel stupid that I can't explain it in English! LOL anyway I guess everyone understands where he is hurt.. and I wish him a speedy recovery. He is such a sweet guy and has been over the moon since getting back to juryo! I watch all the Tokitsukaze boys matches with the wife of the president of the Tokitsukaze koenkai. She's a down to earth koenkai lady just like the Italian wife of the Isegahama koenkai president. Neither are stuffy no matter how rich they are.. In the case of the Isegahama couple they have three houses.. and the wife is staying in the mountain home in Karuizawa because it is too hot in Tokyo! She comes for the basho for 4 days. Tomorrow she is taking us to have chanko with the oyakata at the heya after sumo! :-)

Anyway the Kame-chan was sitting with Sotairyu's parents during his match and came to find me later with his parents looking devastated...

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Day 9

Returning:

East Jonidan 46 TERUNOSATO (0-1, absent from day 3)

Withdrawing:

East Jonidan 56 HOKUTONAMI (1-3)

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Soutairyuu is out as expected.

Unsurprising official diagnosis: a pulled muscle in his left thigh. One week of rest, so I suspect he'll be back in a couple of days. (Tokitsukaze confirms that possibility outright.)

Edited by Asashosakari

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Talked with Azumazeki oyakata (though I still prefer to call him Ushiomaru (Whatever above, it is funny...) ) and he said Kaonishi is not 100% but wants to come back to get kachikoshi!! So wishing him luck and hope he is ok!!

This is really cruel and pathetic and just plain dumb. He can hardly stand, and it looked like he just aggravated his injury in his "bout" against Bushuuyama as he hobbled up Flower Street. These decisions should be taken out of the hands of the Oyakata/rikishi and given solely to a doctor. In their quest for kachikoshi these guys just seem to lose all logic. Yes, he'll drop to Makushita with all that it entails, but he can end his career going on like this. Tell Ushiomary I said he is irresponsible.

Edited by Kintamayama

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Totally agree with Moti here. It is mystifying stuff.

Tell Ushiomaru I said he is not a medical doctor.

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Talked with Azumazeki oyakata (though I still prefer to call him Ushiomaru :-) ) and he said Kaonishi is not 100% but wants to come back to get kachikoshi!! So wishing him luck and hope he is ok!!

This is really cruel and pathetic and just plain dumb. He can hardly stand, and it looked like he just aggravated his injury in his "bout" against Bushuuyama as he hobbled up Flower Street. These decisions should be taken out of the hands of the Oyakata/rikishi and given solely to a doctor. In their quest for kachikoshi these guys just seem to lose all logic. Yes, he'll drop to Makushita with all that it entails, but he can end his career going on like this. Tell Ushiomary I said he is irresponsible.

Ultimately though the decision is the rikishi's. No-one is forcing Kaonishiki to get up on the dohyo. He's a 33 year old who's been in the game for over ten years; he should know better.

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Ultimately though the decision is the rikishi's. No-one is forcing Kaonishiki to get up on the dohyo. He's a 33 year old who's been in the game for over ten years; he should know better.

I disagree-it is ultimately the shisho who has to take care of his rikishi, regardless of his age, and Kaounishiki DOESN'T know better. In this specific case we have a guy who has finally reached the big time after years of toiling in the back alleys, and his sense of judgement is not totally there. Many a shisho in the past have said 'xxx wants to stay in the basho but I persuaded him not to". When they say "it's up to him" they usually mean retirement.

And if it's not that way, it should be.

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Ultimately though the decision is the rikishi's. No-one is forcing Kaonishiki to get up on the dohyo. He's a 33 year old who's been in the game for over ten years; he should know better.

Kaonishiki knows perfectly well what he is doing. As mentioned, he is a 33-year-old college grad who has been in Ozumo for 10 years. Prior to returning, he consulted a doctor, who gave him the "go-ahead" as long as he promised to keep the knee wrapped tightly and go for a thorough check-up after the basho. He is taking pain-killers everyday so he could continue to appear on the dohyo.

When Kaonishiki was promoted to juryo for Nagoya Basho, he set a record for collegiate wrestlers by requiring 60 basho to achieve that rank. So he is not an upcoming prospect with a bright future. In fact, without the recent scandals, he would not even be a sekitori. In 2005, he injured the ACL in his right knee and missed a couple of basho. He knows that if he goes kyujo, he will most likely never be a sekitori again.

So, he is "going to give it the old college try." He told the press, "Look, everyone is hurting somewhere. I wanted to [go on the dohyo] even if I were to lose."

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Kaonishiki knows perfectly well what he is doing. As mentioned, he is a 33-year-old college grad who has been in Ozumo for 10 years. Prior to returning, he consulted a doctor, who gave him the "go-ahead" as long as he promised to keep the knee wrapped tightly and go for a thorough check-up after the basho. He is taking pain-killers everyday so he could continue to appear on the dohyo.

When Kaonishiki was promoted to juryo for Nagoya Basho, he set a record for collegiate wrestlers by requiring 60 basho to achieve that rank. So he is not an upcoming prospect with a bright future. In fact, without the recent scandals, he would not even be a sekitori. In 2005, he injured the ACL in his right knee and missed a couple of basho. He knows that if he goes kyujo, he will most likely never be a sekitori again.

So, he is "going to give it the old college try." He told the press, "Look, everyone is hurting somewhere. I wanted to [go on the dohyo] even if I were to lose."

The last thing that will persuade me is relying on a doctor's go-ahead. We have been watching sumo for a long time and we know how easily you can get what you want off the doctors who sign those certificates. Is that the same doctor that diagnosed him three days ago with an injured meniscus and said he has to be out for one month of total rest and recuperation? So they suddenly found a miracle cure, or he suddenly woke up and got all better? No, it's the second part of what you wrote- he's at the end of his career and has nothing to lose career-wise, but everything to lose health-wise. It's a dumb move-if you saw the way he "fought" today, it was pathetic and sad and he couldn't make it back to the shitakubeya on his own. As for his final sentence-" I wanted to [go on the dohyo] even if I were to lose" - it's surely against some Kyokai rule or provision...

I'll really be surprised if he shows up for his bout tomorrow.

Edited by Kintamayama

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As for his final sentence-" I wanted to [go on the dohyo] even if I were to lose" - it's surely against some Kyokai rule or provision...

Why should that be against a Kyokai rule? He is not "intentionally" losing. On the contrary, he is showing "fighting spirit." Even in other sports, "playing hurt" is an admirable quality.

I'll really be surprised if he shows up for his bout tomorrow.

That's not the point, is it? Even if he goes kyujo, he would have tried his best. He appeared on the dohyo--savoring his hard-earned sekitorihood--as many times as he possibly could. It may appear "dumb" to you, but that's how he wants to finish his career--if it comes to that.

I would be more concerned/upset about Aoiyama's "herniated disc." How can a guy possibly return from that kind of injury in matter of a few days? Here we have a young prospect with a bright future, not some old stiff who is having his "Last Hurrah."

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No, it's the second part of what you wrote- he's at the end of his career and has nothing to lose career-wise, but everything to lose health-wise.

At the risk of coming across as callous - a wrecked knee isn't the end of the world (or one's life), and I think that goes even moreso for athletes who've had to "arrange" themselves with injuries small and large as a regular part of their life anyway.

I think his rejoining the basho is pointless from a results perspective as he's clearly too injured to even pull a Tosayutaka (no power at all, but at least mobile enough for evasive moves), but overall I'm on board with the view relayed by madorosumaru.

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As for his final sentence-" I wanted to [go on the dohyo] even if I were to lose" - it's surely against some Kyokai rule or provision...

Why should that be against a Kyokai rule? He is not "intentionally" losing. On the contrary, he is showing "fighting spirit." Even in other sports, "playing hurt" is an admirable quality.

I'll really be surprised if he shows up for his bout tomorrow.

That's not the point, is it? Even if he goes kyujo, he would have tried his best. He appeared on the dohyo--savoring his hard-earned sekitorihood--as many times as he possibly could. It may appear "dumb" to you, but that's how he wants to finish his career--if it comes to that.

I would be more concerned/upset about Aoiyama's "herniated disc." How can a guy possibly return from that kind of injury in matter of a few days? Here we have a young prospect with a bright future, not some old stiff who is having his "Last Hurrah."

I'm not concerned about Aoiyama, young or not-he came back, won some, lost some, but does not look disabled. I'm not upset either. I'm more constantly dumbfounded every time something like this comes up in sumo-in no other individual sport (non-team -Kirk Gibson, yeah..) can this happen, I understand Kaounishiki wanting to do his last hurrah. My concern is that there doesn't seem to be a a "responsible adult" who can explain to Kaounishiki that regardless of his commendable spirit, it's his future he needs to think about- he can cause himself serious, irreparable damage. That's my only concern. And if he says "to hell with that, I want to be a sekitori as long as I can regardless of consequences", I think that "responsible adult", his Oyakata, should do all he can to stop him. Maybe "dumb" is a harsh word- "mistaken" maybe? "Misguided"?

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No, it's the second part of what you wrote- he's at the end of his career and has nothing to lose career-wise, but everything to lose health-wise.

At the risk of coming across as callous - a wrecked knee isn't the end of the world (or one's life), and I think that goes even moreso for athletes who've had to "arrange" themselves with injuries small and large as a regular part of their life anyway.

You never know what further damage he can do to himself and none of us know the real extent of his injury, but it looks bad. And if an injury is serious enough with complications, it can certainly ruin a person's life. Don't underestimate a shattered knee. And of course, there's the results perspective, like you said.

Edited by Kintamayama

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As for his final sentence-" I wanted to [go on the dohyo] even if I were to lose" - it's surely against some Kyokai rule or provision...

Why should that be against a Kyokai rule? He is not "intentionally" losing. On the contrary, he is showing "fighting spirit." Even in other sports, "playing hurt" is an admirable quality.

Because it's unsportsmanlike. The Kyokai does not allow you to announce your intent to retire before you do (see Konishiki and immediate punishment). It may seem to be unrelated, but it is related. A guy mounting the dohyo with no chance in advance makes the Kyokai look bad.

Edited by Kintamayama

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I'm more constantly dumbfounded every time something like this comes up in sumo-in no other individual sport (non-team -Kirk Gibson, yeah..) can this happen ...

But isn't the reason it can't happen elsewhere that it's (nearly) impossible to achieve a winning outcome in 2 seconds there even when fully healthy?

There's also the little matter of the incentives being a wee bit higher for a juryo rikishi than for most other "regular-season" athletic competitors. Find somebody who was injured in a winning semifinal of a World Championship or the Olympics, and I doubt s/he's skipping the gold medal match either if it's at all possible to appear, even if there's little to no chance of prevailing.

Edited by Asashosakari

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I'm more constantly dumbfounded every time something like this comes up in sumo-in no other individual sport (non-team -Kirk Gibson, yeah..) can this happen ...

But isn't the reason it can't happen elsewhere that it's (nearly) impossible to achieve a winning outcome in 2 seconds there even when fully healthy?

I meant that I don't know of any sport where a guy is pretty badly injured in parts of the body essential to his sport and yet doctors/managers/trainers around him give him a clean bill of health and say "if he wants to , let him do it".

There's also the little matter of the incentives being a wee bit higher for a juryo rikishi than for most other "regular-season" athletic competitors. Find somebody who was injured in a winning semifinal of a World Championship or the Olympics, and I doubt s/he's skipping the gold medal match either if it's at all possible to appear, even if there's little to no chance of prevailing.

I can't answer that since I don't have the facts. I'd like to see actual facts-I mean where this actually happened in the Olympics. Or, maybe someone can provide facts where someone didn't show up for a gold medal match because of injury. It certainly isn't a given, although it sounds very "Last Hurrah" and Hollywoody. As for the incentives, of course you are right. That's the whole point of this conversation-incentive as opposed to permanent damage.

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I meant that I don't know of any sport where a guy is pretty badly injured in parts of the body essential to his sport and yet doctors/managers/trainers around him give him a clean bill of health and say "if he wants to , let him do it".

Kaonishiki didn't exactly receive a clean bill though... FWIW, Andrea Petkovic was playing in the recent US Open with a partially torn meniscus after doctors assured her (and we may all take that with a grain of salt...) that playing wouldn't make it worse, she'd just need to have it checked thoroughly afterwards.

In any case, for individual sports outside of sumo and on the same level of sumo (i.e. not massively popular sports like tennis and golf where millions can be at stake) we really don't hear that much about athlete's medical issues, do we? I just find it hard to draw comparisons because, say, shot putters are rarely written up enough in the press that we would even know if they were competing with injuries or illnesses. Heck, boxing is a much bigger sport than sumo in financial terms, and there are frequently fighters (especially challengers for obvious reasons) who admit after the fight that they were injured in practice before, but gave it a try anyway. (Not quite the Olympics scenario I had in mind, but close enough.) Press coverage of such before the fight? Nada, unless it actually gets the event cancelled. I think you're holding sumo to a standard that isn't present elsewhere either.

Team sports are a completely different matter, of course, what with the athletes not calling the shots.

As for the incentives, of course you are right. That's the whole point of this conversation-incentive as opposed to permanent damage.

I'm on record as saying that the juryo/makushita incentive difference is completely effed up in a modern sporting environment (i.e. with monthly salaries), but as long as it's there, I think it's a bit facile to just say, "somebody needs to protect these guys from themselves". That's always easy to demand when it's not your own livelihood that's at stake. As soon as kosho is back and it includes some type of financial (or even ranking) compensation for time missed as well, only then we can approach the issue from that angle IMHO.

Edited by Asashosakari

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Day 10

The discussion about Kaonishiki (should he stay or should he go) has been rendered moot.

West Juryo 9 KAONISHIKI (2-6-1) has re-withdrawn as of Day 10.

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