July 2011 Retirees

[Kintamayama 40,611]

Some of the best funny shikona now retired..

KaioU

Tokitsukasa

Tokio

Tochinokuni

Yamato

Kinpouzan

Matsugahama

Byakko

Takaryuu(Banzuke guy)

Komori

Tsurunofuji-just got here in May.

Azumaiwa-also from May- he was enthusiastic. and this..

Tatsunishiki

Sakaida-also from May

Edited July 27, 2011 by Kintamayama

[aderechelsea 107]

any ideas why Byakko retired? Didn't he win the Sandanme yusho some time recently?

pity ....

[Asashosakari 16,827]

any ideas why Byakko retired? Didn't he win the Sandanme yusho some time recently?

pity ....

Not that Byakko, the other one. (Can't believe Kinta neglected to post the proper long vowel...)

KaioU

Tochinokuni

Oh no, two Ozeki retirements in one basho!

Sakaida-also from May

Yup, the last missing shindeshi from that basho.

[shumitto 416]

Oh no, two Ozeki retirements in one basho!

(Holiday feeling...)

A pity Tokio decided to leave. Makushita at 21 and highest rank of makushita 22 at 23 didn't make him a really good prospect but it wasn't a completely wasted career either. Maybe he has found something better to do. He was one the active rikishi with facebook account for what is worth.

[Achiyama 1,086]

any ideas why Byakko retired? Didn't he win the Sandanme yusho some time recently?

pity ....

Not that Byakko, the other one. (Can't believe Kinta neglected to post the proper long vowel...)

By the way I was gonna ask this question long ago. Is it o.k. 2 rikishi to have the same shikona? As I know a rikishi has to retire and than the same shikona could be given to somebody else. Am I right or not? I had in mind Byakko. They might be pronounced differently but the written names look the same. Are there other rikishi (active in the present) who share the same shikona? Just curious if somebody can answer this question.

Regards,

Achiyama

[yorikiried by fate 1,768]

The answer is easy. The written names might look similar in transcription, but in fact they don't have the same shikona. One is called 白虎 and the other 白光.

[Asashosakari 16,827]

More specifically, the names need to be unique in both kanji characters and pronunciation. The "ko" kanji is clearly different as YBF's post shows, and the pronunciation is as well - long vowel for the retired Byakko, short vowel for the one in makushita.

They don't have to, but the Kyokai takes care of the issue on their English side anyway by manually fixing up one of the names in defiance of their usual transcription rules, see Byakko(u). Normally long vowels aren't reflected in the official shikona transcriptions. (Although that's just a style choice; e.g. writing them the way Kinta does is just as valid.)

Edited July 27, 2011 by Asashosakari

[Doitsuyama 1,150]

They might be pronounced differently but the written names look the same. Are there other rikishi (active in the present) who share the same shikona? Just curious if somebody can answer this question.

To add to the other replies, I must say that the first cited sentence sounds quite naive to me. It should be common knowledge that Japanese script is very different from ours.

That said, in the past there were regularly rikishi with the same pronounciation as well - at first I thought there probably were clever differences in pronounciation (which is perfectly possible in Japanese), but then there were regular surnames like Watanabe in two different kanji versions so I am convinced that the earlier rule must have been just different kanji for all shikona (on the same banzuke), regardless of pronounciation. In fact, for older banzuke many readings are unknown even to the Kyokai by now as Nishinoshima found out for me (with regard to improving the shikona readings in my database of former lower division rikishi).

[Asashosakari 16,827]

In fact, for older banzuke many readings are unknown even to the Kyokai by now as Nishinoshima found out for me (with regard to improving the shikona readings in my database of former lower division rikishi).

That's interesting. Any idea how far back they definitely have pronunciation data? I'm always surprised when I read something about attendance or kensho data and it comes with the qualifier that they only have data back to the 1980s or 1990s, but I guess in their history they weren't quite baseball-like in their stats-collecting after all.

It seems to me the whole "names must be unique" thing is handled even more strictly now. AFAICT it wasn't unusual for maezumo rikishi to share a name with a rikishi on the banzuke in the past (sure enough, the maezumo guys aren't on the banzuke after all), and the renaming would only happen for the first jonokuchi basho, while today the (re)naming happens prior to the maezumo bouts already. Or is it just a case of your source material not listing 'proper' shikona for maezumo rikishi?

[Doitsuyama 1,150]

It seems to me the whole "names must be unique" thing is handled even more strictly now. AFAICT it wasn't unusual for maezumo rikishi to share a name with a rikishi on the banzuke in the past (sure enough, the maezumo guys aren't on the banzuke after all), and the renaming would only happen for the first jonokuchi basho, while today the (re)naming happens prior to the maezumo bouts already. Or is it just a case of your source material not listing 'proper' shikona for maezumo rikishi?

When I don't have sources for mae-zumo I assume the first known shikona for mae-zumo too which probably often is wrong, but since I don't know either way it's easier to have one shikona change fewer.

Or to put it the other way around, if I have a shikona change from mae-zumo to jonokuchi it is from a reliable source, usually the Sumo magazine which does list the shikona in mae-zumo (or more correctly for the shusse as mae-zumo results are a rather recent thing for Sumo magazine).

[Tamanaogijima 616]

That said, in the past there were regularly rikishi with the same pronounciation as well - at first I thought there probably were clever differences in pronounciation (which is perfectly possible in Japanese) [snip]

Even today. Well, they are no rikishi but tokoyama (2rd class and 3rd class, who do not appear on the banzuke). Both 床岳 from Kokonoe-beya and 床武 from Fujishima-beya are pronounced とこたけ Tokotake. Luckily for the power-that-be they are too far away apart from each other in the tokoyama list to ever see them both as special class tokoyama on one banzuke.

[Asashosakari 16,827]

Or to put it the other way around, if I have a shikona change from mae-zumo to jonokuchi it is from a reliable source, usually the Sumo magazine which does list the shikona in mae-zumo (or more correctly for the shusse as mae-zumo results are a rather recent thing for Sumo magazine).

Thanks. I'm guessing there's been a change in policy then. The 1990s are full of basho where e.g. up to three Sato's were in Ozumo (same kanji - one on the banzuke, one banzuke-gai, one in maezumo), and I'm pretty sure that kind of thing just doesn't happen anymore, it's all done with preemptive shikona announcements now as with Sasa(no)yama and Sakuma(yama) this past basho.

BTW, I assume that means the maezumo bout results we have (since Kyushu 2005) are all we're ever going to see, at least from Sumo magazine editions?

Edited July 28, 2011 by Asashosakari

[Naganoyama 5,366]

That said, in the past there were regularly rikishi with the same pronounciation as well - at first I thought there probably were clever differences in pronounciation (which is perfectly possible in Japanese) [snip]

Even today. Well, they are no rikishi but tokoyama (2rd class and 3rd class, who do not appear on the banzuke). Both 床岳 from Kokonoe-beya and 床武 from Fujishima-beya are pronounced とこたけ Tokotake. Luckily for the power-that-be they are too far away apart from each other in the tokoyama list to ever see them both as special class tokoyama on one banzuke.

The Kokonoe tokoyama is pronounced とこだけ Tokodake.

[Orion 431]

That said, in the past there were regularly rikishi with the same pronounciation as well - at first I thought there probably were clever differences in pronounciation (which is perfectly possible in Japanese), but then there were regular surnames like Watanabe in two different kanji versions so I am convinced that the earlier rule must have been just different kanji for all shikona (on the same banzuke), regardless of pronounciation.

As long as I have been following sumo the only rule is that the same name (as it is written in kanji, of course, pronunciation doesn't count) cannot appear twice on the banzuke written in exactly the same way. Maezumo names are, by definition, not on the banzuke, and very often a shikona is not given to a maezumo boy till after he has got through maezumo and his name will therefore appear on the next banzuke. Some stablemasters, however, assign a shikona right away, before maezumo. Those who are banzuke-gai are also, by definition, not on the banzuke.

I recall one occasion when the banzuke-makers admitted red-faced that they had overlooked two identical shikona -- which means that somewhere in my collection I have that particular banzuke specially marked. But until I've finished post-quake tidying up, it will remain safe but unfindable.

Orion

[Doitsuyama 1,150]

As long as I have been following sumo the only rule is that the same name (as it is written in kanji, of course, pronunciation doesn't count) cannot appear twice on the banzuke written in exactly the same way.

Well, this obviously isn't the only rule since a looong time anymore since there are clear efforts to avoid same readings. Not that long ago there was a new Kokonoe kid whose surname already existed as a shikona (but with different kanji) and you know the Kokonoe rule of getting an own shikona only in sandanme. What to do? No problem, he still got his surname as shikona, but with a different reading. This effort (among others) show that same readings also aren't allowed.

I recall one occasion when the banzuke-makers admitted red-faced that they had overlooked two identical shikona -- which means that somewhere in my collection I have that particular banzuke specially marked. But until I've finished post-quake tidying up, it will remain safe but unfindable.

Well, then you must be collecting banzuke for a very long time now. I have transcribed all full banzuke from 1934 to 1988 for Sumo Reference and there are only two cases of identical kanji. The first is in the 1945 basho which had less than ideal circumstances to say the least when there were two Ito (same kanji) on the banzuke, but both were absent. The second might be your example, but even for you the Kyushu 1960 basho may be too far in the past. In that basho shin-deshi Okada had the same shikona as the long established Okada in sandanme. The reason the new Okada didn't get an own shikona might have been that he was absent (maybe AWOL straight after mae-zumo) and practically already retired.

If you indeed have a later example I would like to hear about it. Of course my full banzuke don't come from the original banzuke, but from the content in Sumo Magazine which might differ.

[Kotoviki 16]

Oh no, two Ozeki retirements in one basho!

(Laughing...)

A pity Tokio decided to leave. Makushita at 21 and highest rank of makushita 22 at 23 didn't make him a really good prospect but it wasn't a completely wasted career either. Maybe he has found something better to do. He was one the active rikishi with facebook account for what is worth.

Tokio decided to retire because after his second eye surgery (first time injured in keiko with Otake beya's Kihakuriki) the doctor said a third time will leave him blind. At this point he knows he's not making sekitori.. and it is time to move on before losing his eyesight! He's lost almost all the weight he needs to by dieting and training since April. (His 2nd eye surgery was in March) He wants to own his own coffee shop or cafe in the future and has been studying about all that! :-) His danpatsu (Welcome...) is this Saturday at the ex-Kise beya! Will be there with a towel wrapped around my neck I guess to catch all the tears as I cut his hair! (Sad goodbyes...) (Sad goodbyes...) (Sad goodbyes...) (Sad goodbyes...) (Sad goodbyes...) (Sad goodbyes...) (Sad goodbyes...)

It was sad that he had to go make-koshi in his last basho but that is how it is sometimes! I was happy to be with his mom for his last match in Nagoya!!