Haru basho IS canceled!

[Asameshimae 220]

The news said nothing is official until the 6th. It might be a rubber stamp, but I see no point in speculating, we'll know soon enough.

[Asashosakari 18,660]

The reasons for a behind closed doors basho were different than they are now.

Depends on how you look at it. At the most basic level, the rationale for past closed-door tournaments has been: "If there's a banzuke, there must be a basho". (Of course, the Shunjuen incident demonstrated that there are never absolutes.) Beyond that, I don't think there's that much of a difference between "the Kokugikan was deemed unsafe for the public" (1945) and "the competition was deemed unpresentable to the public" (2011?). There are still sumo wrestlers hoping to advance their careers in what I will presume is an honest approach. So as long as we're operating under the assumption that at some point, things will proceed in an orderly fashion again, why rob them of two (or more) months of their career? (Then again, perhaps many would welcome the chance to rest their bodies for an additional two months...)

I was actually surprised to read about the cancelled Summer 1946 tournament - I mean, it was always obvious that there's a "missing" basho there, but they didn't even put out a banzuke in that case, so I'd figured it was always clear they would have to go a year between basho that time. Yet another Mainichi articles stated they had an informal competition in Osaka instead, but that one doesn't seem to have left any historical marks, including on the next banzuke (for all intents and purposes November 1946 looks like it was based on the November 1945 results and nothing else).

[Kintamayama 44,220]

Yes, let's all take it easy for now, shall we? Nothing will happen till Monday, if at all. Maybe try to water down the blinding subject for now?

Nitpick: The upcoming board meeting is on Sunday.

February 6th is a Monday here.

OK, I screwed up.. Who meets on a Sunday??

[Peterao 3]

And I saw that even Natsu is shaking...

You MUST be joking.Talk about penalising all for the misdeeds of some.Show me a sport that doesn't have devious activity.

None of the currently alleged yaocho activities are new. They all happened before the Baseball Gambling scandal broke. The people in charge of overhauling Ozumo after that scandal had over a half year to get to the bottom of issue s such as this and come forward themselves. It would still have been a big scandal, but if Ozumo came forward with an acknowledgment of yaocho themselves, at least people could have been convinced that they were really trying to clean up their act.

The way this went down proves to me that they can't handle the responsibility of being a public fund supported organization. If they wish to continue receiving special treatment, I say that they should either be shut down indefinitely until a full and complete independent investigation leaves as few stones uncovered as possible, or else admit that they deserve to be classified more like Kabuki or Noh.

[Kintamayama 44,220]

Well, Ross Mihara stated just a little while ago "The JSA has just cancelled next month's sumo basho in Osaka. The first time that's happened since 1946." I would think he should know...........It's on his Facebook status. :-(

Maybe he has some inside info, but nothing is official yet.

[Peterao 3]

Yes, let's all take it easy for now, shall we? Nothing will happen till Monday, if at all. Maybe try to water down the blinding subject for now?

Nitpick: The upcoming board meeting is on Sunday.

February 6th is a Monday here.

OK, I screwed up.. Who meets on a Sunday??

Weren't the punishments for Kotomitsuki and other gamblers handed out on a Sunday? Seems to be the decided day for bad things to go down.

[Asameshimae 220]

The reasons for a behind closed doors basho were different than they are now.

Depends on how you look at it. At the most basic level, the rationale for past closed-door tournaments has been: "If there's a banzuke, there must be a basho". (Of course, the Shunjuen incident demonstrated that there are never absolutes.) Beyond that, I don't think there's that much of a difference between "the Kokugikan was deemed unsafe for the public" (1945) and "the competition was deemed unpresentable to the public" (2011?). There are still sumo wrestlers hoping to advance their careers in what I will presume is an honest approach. So as long as we're operating under the assumption that at some point, things will proceed in an orderly fashion again, why rob them of two (or more) months of their career? (Then again, perhaps many would welcome the chance to rest their bodies for an additional two months...)

Yes, I see your argument, of course, who knows, it might (emphasis on might) be better than a way underattended basho which may very likely not be shown on TV.

[Asashosakari 18,660]

None of the currently alleged yaocho activities are new. They all happened before the Baseball Gambling scandal broke. The people in charge of overhauling Ozumo after that scandal had over a half year to get to the bottom of issue s such as this and come forward themselves. It would still have been a big scandal, but if Ozumo came forward with an acknowledgment of yaocho themselves, at least people could have been convinced that they were really trying to clean up their act.

The question is: How do you admit to shady behaviour that has always been happening to differing degrees, and where do you even start telling the "story"? At least you have a definite starting point from which to untangle things when a scandal is uncovered by outsiders. I don't think their decades-long behaviour is intentional inactivity as much as it is sheer paralysis caused by too much history.

Yaku Mitsuru the ever-present, incidentally, has called for the current board to come completely clean on yaocho happenings past and present. I think he's the only prominent voice to go that far at the moment.

Edited February 5, 2011 by Asashosakari

[Peterao 3]

None of the currently alleged yaocho activities are new. They all happened before the Baseball Gambling scandal broke. The people in charge of overhauling Ozumo after that scandal had over a half year to get to the bottom of issue s such as this and come forward themselves. It would still have been a big scandal, but if Ozumo came forward with an acknowledgment of yaocho themselves, at least people could have been convinced that they were really trying to clean up their act.

The question is: How do you admit to shady behaviour that has always been happening to differing degrees, and where do you even start telling the "story"? At least you have a definite starting point from which to untangle things when a scandal is uncovered by outsiders. I don't think their decades-long behaviour is intentional inactivity as much as it is sheer paralysis caused by too much history.

Yaku Mitsuru the ever-present, incidentally, has called for the current board to come completely clean on yaocho happenings past and present. I think he's the only prominent voice to go that far at the moment.

In my dream world, someone from the Kyokai would come out and say something like this:

"Sumo is a tradition dating back to ancient times. It is more than just a sport; it is a way of life. Over the centuries, a unique and special culture has evolved around it; and yes, part of that culture involves rikishi cooperating with each other when it serves their best interests. It has been tolerated and hidden by our organization because the side benefit is that such cooperation has helped to present a more beautiful entertainment experience for our fans. Much as when the entire country was enthralled by Rikidozan's conquests in the world of professional wrestling, so too has Ozumo been enhanced by the illusion of 100% legitimate competition.

But times have changed. Japan has changed. And indeed, the whole world, throughout which a great many fans of Ozumo exist, has changed. And it is not possible for us to deny the illusion any longer. Completely competitive sumo exists in the amateur ranks, and I highly suggest you take the opportunity to watch these future stars in action when the chance presents itself. As for us, we will continue to preserve our unique tradition. We will no longer deny that match fixing exists, but, after this speech, we will make no additional attempt to acknowledge or to explain it. The vast majority of our contests are completely legitimate; the ones that are pre-decided are done for the benefit of all.

We hope that our fans will continue to love and support sumo. We will continue to support the communities that support us, and to train and work our hardest to preserve this unique culture that Japan has to offer."

[Maguroyama 27]

And I saw that even Natsu is shaking...

You MUST be joking.Talk about penalising all for the misdeeds of some.Show me a sport that doesn't have devious activity.

Oh, come on! Nobody in their right mind can believe that Chiyohakuho and Kasuganishiki and their friends in juryo are the only ones to do this? If this is proof of anything, it's that this is commonplace in sumo and that it might go all the way to the top. Remember that it was just recently that the former Miyagino oyakata was punished for babbling about fixed matches between Hakuho and Asashoryu. I'm not saying that is necessarily true, I'm totally hoping it's not. But I think we should all be prepared for this thing to spread like wildfire and in a worst case scenario it might afflict rikishi at the very top as well.

[Asashosakari 18,660]

But times have changed. Japan has changed. And indeed, the whole world, throughout which a great many fans of Ozumo exist, has changed. And it is not possible for us to deny the illusion any longer. Completely competitive sumo exists in the amateur ranks, and I highly suggest you take the opportunity to watch these future stars in action when the chance presents itself. As for us, we will continue to preserve our unique tradition. We will no longer deny that match fixing exists, but, after this speech, we will make no additional attempt to acknowledge or to explain it. The vast majority of our contests are completely legitimate; the ones that are pre-decided are done for the benefit of all.

Does that still "sell" today? I'm clearly biased by my own preferences, but I just find it hard to believe that more of today's Japanese people would prefer "guided and pretty" over "on the level and messy" if actually given the choice.

But that's an issue I've (in a way) complained about before - everything has become so standardized over the last 30 years, and in many cases simply to give plausible deniability to those in charge. Every future yokozuna has to win two in a row, every future ozeki has to go at least 33-12 with all double-digit records*, all just because the current leadership is scared shitless of actually having a promoted rikishi turn out to be substandard (or worse, Futahaguro-like unfit altogether). Well, it didn't stop them from getting Kotomitsuki. If I recall you reading correctly, I depart from you in thinking that this has resulted in major promotions being partially engineered top-down (IMO it's probably more a case of being driven bottom-up by fellow rikishi), but whatever the situation, I just don't feel that the "pretty" approach has really served a purpose, or at least doesn't do so anymore.

I even get annoyed by lazy banzuke makers in the games (fixed promotion targets in daily games, blergh), and I downright deplore the same laziness in the real thing. Just to name one example: Who the hell cares that Baruto's potential (initial) ozeki run was an unpretty 12-3 / 9-6 / 12-3? Watch his sumo and you know he deserves the promotion, irrespective of whether he has hit the prescribed milestones or not. It just feels that earlier generations were much more willing to make tough decisions (Chiyonoyama's early non-promotion to yokozuna comes to mind), and I'd like to see a return to that, even though it (probably) would require giving up on "guided and pretty" for good as well. Let the chips fall where they may through fully honest competition (inasmuch as human nature will allow for it), and as the guys in charge, try to make sensible ranking decisions based on where they've fallen, no hiding behind lazy rules. But perhaps there's just too much money circulating through the sumo world for that nowadays. Well, at the current rate that problem may shortly be solved...

* The modern insistences on certain juryo records being completely undemotable (Ms1w 5-2!) or 7-8 sekiwake never dropping beyond komusubi (M9w 14-1!) go into that pile of crap, as well.

[Haruibono 11]

And I saw that even Natsu is shaking...

You MUST be joking.Talk about penalising all for the misdeeds of some.Show me a sport that doesn't have devious activity.

Oh, come on! Nobody in their right mind can believe that Chiyohakuho and Kasuganishiki and their friends in juryo are the only ones to do this? If this is proof of anything, it's that this is commonplace in sumo and that it might go all the way to the top. Remember that it was just recently that the former Miyagino oyakata was punished for babbling about fixed matches between Hakuho and Asashoryu. I'm not saying that is necessarily true, I'm totally hoping it's not. But I think we should all be prepared for this thing to spread like wildfire and in a worst case scenario it might afflict rikishi at the very top as well.

That's what I'm saying!!!I do NOT think the basho should be canceled, though. It's over the top. It's obviously going on to a greater or lesser extent, and will probably never be wiped out. Doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to enjoy some entertaining sumo, though.

[Asameshimae 220]

And I saw that even Natsu is shaking...

You MUST be joking.Talk about penalising all for the misdeeds of some.Show me a sport that doesn't have devious activity.

Oh, come on! Nobody in their right mind can believe that Chiyohakuho and Kasuganishiki and their friends in juryo are the only ones to do this? If this is proof of anything, it's that this is commonplace in sumo and that it might go all the way to the top. Remember that it was just recently that the former Miyagino oyakata was punished for babbling about fixed matches between Hakuho and Asashoryu. I'm not saying that is necessarily true, I'm totally hoping it's not. But I think we should all be prepared for this thing to spread like wildfire and in a worst case scenario it might afflict rikishi at the very top as well.

There's the rub. They didn't confiscate every cell phone... Guys in juryo got caught, by chance, and it's probably because juryo has the most prevalent bout fixing for all the stated reasons. Why would a guy who got sucked into it in juryo miss a chance to get ahead a little by paying for or getting paid for a win or loss that doesn't hurt him that much? A couple of friends of mind have pointed out you are probably better off as a wrestler if you keep getting 8-7s (and 4-3s) b/c if you do too well too fast you are very quickly out of your league. Better to rise slowly through the ranks and know what you are getting into. So, why not sell an unneeded bout here and there? Again, every thing about the way sumo works makes it a ripe environment for all of this.

[Peterao 3]

But times have changed. Japan has changed. And indeed, the whole world, throughout which a great many fans of Ozumo exist, has changed. And it is not possible for us to deny the illusion any longer. Completely competitive sumo exists in the amateur ranks, and I highly suggest you take the opportunity to watch these future stars in action when the chance presents itself. As for us, we will continue to preserve our unique tradition. We will no longer deny that match fixing exists, but, after this speech, we will make no additional attempt to acknowledge or to explain it. The vast majority of our contests are completely legitimate; the ones that are pre-decided are done for the benefit of all.

Does that still "sell" today? I'm clearly biased by my own preferences, but I just find it hard to believe that more of today's Japanese people would prefer "guided and pretty" over "on the level and messy" if actually given the choice.

It wouldn't sell as much as before. But the genie is out of the bottle now, so I think that there only two choices left: acknowledge the entertainment aspect of sumo and lose the hardline gachinko sumo fans, or go all out to ensure legitimate sumo, and lose fans as a result of the inevitable lower quality of sumo performances.

As Japan already has plenty of options for legitimate fighting, and the time on the dohyo is already over 90% posing and posturing, I think it's probably in their best interest to just keep putting out the same product that they always have.

[Asameshimae 220]

"and the time on the dohyo is already over 90% posing and posturing"

Are you suggesting the posing and posturing is fixed? :-(

[Asameshimae 220]

Here is the first English link I have seen about the chairman talking about a possible cancellation for anyone who want to read about it in English. Only the opening paragraph offers much of anything new.

Edited February 5, 2011 by Asanomeshi

[Asashosakari 18,660]

It wouldn't sell as much as before. But the genie is out of the bottle now, so I think that there only two choices left: acknowledge the entertainment aspect of sumo and lose the hardline gachinko sumo fans, or go all out to ensure legitimate sumo, and lose fans as a result of the inevitable lower quality of sumo performances.

I don't agree at all that the performance quality would inevitably be lower. It's no great shakes even now, and if that Kiyoseumi-Kasuganishiki bout is any indication, the typical yaocho bout (even below ozeki...) is not exactly a marvel of technical brilliance on the way to the predetermined conclusion, either. (Which makes sense, of course...you have to keep things basic or you risk accidentally ending up with the wrong winner. I should really post the allegedly iffy Chiyohakuho-Gagamaru bout tomorrow...) Add in a return of a kosho system, or a cutback to 4 annual tournaments, and you could gain even more of an improvement.

Besides, isn't one of the main effects of yaocho that it keeps inferior rikishi at too high a rank? Flush out the Kasuganishikis when it's time for them to go and not when they run out of money or favours a few years later, and the sumo quality might well rise just from replacing crippled 35-year-olds with less crippled 25-year-olds. The one thing that might happen is that rikishis' basho-to-basho variance in performance might go much higher than it is now, but I don't see that as a problem from the fan point-of-view, just one for the rikishi and (possibly) for the banzuke makers.

To put it bluntly: Besides Kaio, is there any current rikishi in Ozumo for whom more than a handful of fans would answer with an emphatic "yes" to the question: "Do you approve of questionable bout results if they are the only way to prolong [insert rikishi]'s career?" I doubt it. Going back to your hoped-for statement - I strongly disagree that "such cooperation has helped to present a more beautiful entertainment experience for our fans." Perhaps it was once true (those Chiyonofuji yusho-race schemes Itai detailed actually sounded pretty cool in spots), but the current brand of yaocho has done quite the opposite, in my opinion. Getting rid of it as much as possible would be no loss.

Edited February 5, 2011 by Asashosakari

[Peterao 3]

It wouldn't sell as much as before. But the genie is out of the bottle now, so I think that there only two choices left: acknowledge the entertainment aspect of sumo and lose the hardline gachinko sumo fans, or go all out to ensure legitimate sumo, and lose fans as a result of the inevitable lower quality of sumo performances.

I don't agree at all that the performance quality would inevitably be lower.

This seems to be at odds with:

Edit: And I'm just dying to see the festival of henka and slapdowns that will ensue once a rikishi's entire livelihood depends on winning his bouts. Thrilling!

Without yaocho, wouldn't the above scenario (that I assume you sarcastically said that you were dying to see) come about, as more rikishi are forced to try and win by any means necessary?

[Asashosakari 18,660]

Edit: And I'm just dying to see the festival of henka and slapdowns that will ensue once a rikishi's entire livelihood depends on winning his bouts. Thrilling!

Without yaocho, wouldn't the above scenario (that I assume you sarcastically said that you were dying to see) come about, as more rikishi are forced to try and win by any means necessary?

My statement was dependent on your idea of making rikishi earn their entire livelihood through won bouts, which would mean "win by any means necessary" a) comes to apply to every bout, and b) always applies to both opponents. I don't see why "outlawing" yaocho would have nearly the same effect. Rikishi who do need to approach every single bout as "win by any means necessary" will soon drop to a division more appropriate to their skill level.

So I don't agree with the prognosis to begin with, but even if you're right, more henka attempts on the final days is a price I'd be willing to pay for the assurance that the tournament is otherwise on the level. Heck, earlier today I posted on Sumotalk that continued giving of "favours" on the last few days would be acceptable to me as long as the first 12 or so days are on the level... I'm not wide-eyed enough to believe that it's ever going to go away completely. But a good-faith effort at curtailing it severely is needed at this point. People already aren't watching the stuff that's currently on offer.

Edit: I was hoping for a slightly stronger attempt at refuting my response to your "quality be going down!" claim than merely quoting back one of my comments from elsewhere out of context...

Edited February 5, 2011 by Asashosakari

[Peterao 3]

Edit: And I'm just dying to see the festival of henka and slapdowns that will ensue once a rikishi's entire livelihood depends on winning his bouts. Thrilling!

Without yaocho, wouldn't the above scenario (that I assume you sarcastically said that you were dying to see) come about, as more rikishi are forced to try and win by any means necessary?

My statement was dependent on your idea of making rikishi earn their entire livelihood through won bouts, which would mean "win by any means necessary" a) comes to apply to every bout, and b) always applies to both opponents. I don't see why "outlawing" yaocho would have nearly the same effect. Rikishi who do need to approach every single bout as "win by any means necessary" will soon drop to a division more appropriate to their skill level.

I don't believe that, with a severe crackdown on yaocho in effect, rikishi who know that their grip on sekitori status is slipping will wait until they are 4-7 before resorting to desperation tactics. I think that we'll see a lot more henka, a lot more intentional matta to throw an opponent off balance, and any other tricks available to avoid a straight up match right from shonichi.

I have nothing stronger to back that up than my own feeling, nor do I think that you have any stronger evidence to back up your claim. If we do enter such an era, I'll be very interested in watching how it ends up playing out.

[Asashosakari 18,660]

I don't believe that, with a severe crackdown on yaocho in effect, rikishi who know that their grip on sekitori status is slipping will wait until they are 4-7 before resorting to desperation tactics. I think that we'll see a lot more henka, a lot more intentional matta to throw an opponent off balance, and any other tricks available to avoid a straight up match right from shonichi.

And their non-desperate opponents will (come to) know to expect it. This stuff doesn't work if it's applied in every bout, unless your opponents are in the same boat and trying to implement their own shenanigans at the same time. (In the latter case the real losers are the fans, of course.)

In any case, I'd rather put up with the occasional desperate Kasuganishiki-type for a few basho until his lack of skill finally catches up to him, than have to endure him for a few years because he keeps rigging himself into a continued presence. Frankly, you make it sound like half the makuuchi (or juryo) division would constantly be on the brink of demotion if they aren't allowed to fix half their bouts... Sumo will still be a zero-sum game after yaocho is removed - somebody is going to score a win for every loss suffered by somebody else, they're not suddenly all going to finish 5-10.

Edited February 5, 2011 by Asashosakari

[Fay 1,677]

Call me naive, but I don't like it to be cheated. I don't like the idea that I cheer for someone who already sold his bout and I feel betrayed - thanks Kasuganishiki :-(

I have no problem if they are KK at the end of a basho and give away a win to a friend who needs it desperately. I guess there is no way for a completely clean sport. But I don't want to accept that they take money for a favour like this.

Cancelling the Haru Basho seems to me the only possibility to force the Sumo Kyokai to think calmly about reforms and clear decisions. Going on with business as usual would be fatal.

[Peterao 3]

Call me naive, but I don't like it to be cheated. I don't like the idea that I cheer for someone who already sold his bout and I feel betrayed - thanks Kasuganishiki :-(

I have no problem if they are KK at the end of a basho and give away a win to a friend who needs it desperately. I guess there is no way for a completely clean sport. But I don't want to accept that they take money for a favour like this.

Then they should go gachinko all the way; voluntarily withdraw their favored tax status, become a regular corporation, and attempt to survive and be profitable at the same level that other sports organizations must. They've already taken untold billions of yen from Japan's coffers when this country's annual budget is the most debt-laden in the world; in effect, stealing from me and every other long term resident of Japan.

[Jokkamura 4]

Call me naive, but I don't like it to be cheated. I don't like the idea that I cheer for someone who already sold his bout and I feel betrayed - thanks Kasuganishiki :-(

I have no problem if they are KK at the end of a basho and give away a win to a friend who needs it desperately. I guess there is no way for a completely clean sport. But I don't want to accept that they take money for a favour like this.

Then they should go gachinko all the way; voluntarily withdraw their favored tax status, become a regular corporation, and attempt to survive and be profitable at the same level that other sports organizations must. They've already taken untold billions of yen from Japan's coffers when this country's annual budget is the most debt-laden in the world; in effect, stealing from me and every other long term resident of Japan.

I don't know why Japanese people are watching Sumo. I've been watching it for that many years because of the slight hope that there still exists a sport with tradition and values (and I think I'm not the only one). Without that illusion it's only another heartless comercial show and I feel cheated.

[kame 0]

Gachinko rikishi are much more prone to suffer injuries. As we've seen, yaocho lends itself beautifully to a safe flow and safe falls. It's not just the fact that a good chunk of the audience is getting cheated but it's awfully unfair to top makushita guys and gachinko sekitori. I bet yaocho suffered a transformation for the worse after the number of basho per year was changed to 6.