Yaocho by mobile scandal-

[Kintamayama 44,181]

Am a fatalist who really wonders about the future of Pro-Sumo now.

Who's making fun of my poll now?

I am- you feel good counting the maybes as yesses? Enjoy.

[Flohru 176]

Where are people getting this "beyond a reasonable doubt" stuff from? That's for a criminal conviction, not a bout-fixing investigation.

Guess what the coming law-cases will make of it? We already have a fat calumny-case possibility and "beyond a reasonable doubt" is the key here.

Don't worry, until now there are no lawsuits and some (ex-) rikishi are just threatening. IMHO they would be well advised to take all the money they can get and not go to court against a mighty opponent with lots of money and lawyers unless they can prove without a reasonable doubt that they didn't do anything wrong. Besides, we don't know exactly what kind of evidence does exist, do we? Maybe there are some more text messages or bank account abstracts the public wasn't informed of, maybe not only Kasuganishiki talked but others confirmed his story/names anonymously.

Let's face it: regardless of the known amount and quality of evidence against them, all the rikishi advised to retire are actually guilty without a doubt and the fact that there are many other rikishi past and present that are guilty as well but not punished at all, doesn't help the expelled in front of any court of the world: no equality in injustice.

Edited April 4, 2011 by Flohru

[Hakuyobaku 33]

What's the current status now? Who retired?

Anyway it's naive to think yaocho will be abolished in this investigation. I think fans either have to take up with whateer there is or let go, there is no other.

Edited April 4, 2011 by Hakuyobaku

[shumitto 418]

Even if none is proven guilty beyond any reasonable doubt or whatever (which is indeed a very hard principle to adhere to, not only with yaocho), rikishi have nothing to complain about. They are being punished for something they have done and the fact others (more famous, personable, influential, or simply luckier) are off the hook doesn't mean they are not to blame. Unlucky for sure they are, for no cell phone caught there would be catch out. The best they can do is to take the mo$t out of it and move on quietly.

Edited April 4, 2011 by shumitto

[Asashosakari 18,650]

Anyway it's naive to think yaocho will be abolished in this investigation. I think fans either have to take up with whateer there is or let go, there is no other.

Well, going forward there's a third possibility: Continued public discussion of the role yaocho should or shouldn't play in Ozumo, instead of both insiders and fans being complicit in the time-honoured "it's always been a part of sumo / what can you do? / it's not really that bad anyway" charade in which everybody knows but nobody talks about anything, as though there's no other way for it to be. (German readers may be reminded of last year's "unword" of the year right now...)

The genie is out of the bottle now, and in my admittedly biased impression, even in Japan most fans would desire a "clean" Ozumo over the "traditional" one, if they actually had the choice. I hope they make use of the opportunity the scandal is giving them.

[Kintamayama 44,181]

The hyogiin-kai consisting of Oyakata and gyoji met today for more than four hours and debated the results of the investigations loudly and proudly, amid a lot of disagreements. Many demanded a reduction of the punishments and questioned the seriousness of the investigations.

More information from this hyogiin-kai is now emerging. Some Oyakata, led by Hanakago, Onoe and Kasugayama (all with "guilty " deshi) loudly demanded the rijikai withdraw the punishments immediately. "The rijikai will do no such thing. You don't like it? Move for our dismissal now !!" shouted a usually quiet Hanaregoma rijicho. The hyoogiiin-kai has the power to depose riji and yakuin officers with a 75% vote. Three other riji who were present- Nishonoseki, Dewanoumi, and Musashigawa immediately backed their rijicho and put their jobs at stake as well. Sensing things were moving quickly towards a coup d'etat, newly chosen hyogiinkai chairman Izutsu asked the riji to leave so the members could discuss this amongst themselves. (Reminder-the hyogiinkai is made up of all non-riji Oyakata, some gyoji and some active rikishi, 110 members in all). A fiery debate ensued which at some point looked to be moving towards a coup, but then Kiriyama Oyakata gave a tearful, moving speech. "My deshi Tokusegawa is one of those being dismissed. I truly believe he is innocent. I am not happy, to say the least. But for the Kyokai's sake, we must all move forward!!" This managed to calm everyone down, and in the end, the riji were called back in and told of the decision to abide by the rijikai decisions. After the meeting, Hanaregoma, who yorikiried the coup d'etat on the dohyo (as the reporter put it oh so colorfully..) said nonchalantly: "I was told that they accept the rijicho's decisions.."

Edited April 4, 2011 by Kintamayama

[Jonosuke 28]

They are being punished for something they have done and the fact others (more famous, personable, influential, or simply luckier) are off the hook doesn't mean they are not to blame.

But the point is what if they have not done it. The committee came up with the verdict by proceeding with a rather unscientific rule of :"two out of three" whereby if the same name came up from the two of three admitted rikishi, the named rikishi was deemed to be guilty. They had to entirely rely on the testimony of the three who were in the end promised for a lighter sentence by dribbling on the name of other rikishi. Other than that the committee had no solid evidence as they could not positively identify the offense from call logs or any other evidence (if they had any).

Obviously the call logs were between two people and unless the two were saying something like "I slap you and you fall" and proven subsequently by an actual bout between the two, they could not prove the two have committed a yaocho for certain. If the two callers were simply speaking about a third rikishi then unless that rikishi had admitted committing yaocho, then it is nothing more than a talk betweenthe two callers. It's rather slim vidence to snub out the lifetime work of individual.

It's clear from the beginning that the committee's tactics to leak out the name of "suspected" rikishi to the press and made them appear guilty long before they formally announced their list as their announcement only reinforced the guilt of the rikishi. The committee members and Kyokai executives knew so well that unless they came up with such sacrificial lambs to give the public and bureaucrats an appearance of aggressively cleaning up yaocho from Ozumo, they had no chance at all with Ministry of EduSci to agree to hold a hon-basho and by having this thing drags on only meant an eventual demise of Ozumo and their livelihood.

[Hakuyobaku 33]

Anyway it's naive to think yaocho will be abolished in this investigation. I think fans either have to take up with whateer there is or let go, there is no other.

Well, going forward there's a third possibility: Continued public discussion of the role yaocho should or shouldn't play in Ozumo, instead of both insiders and fans being complicit in the time-honoured "it's always been a part of sumo / what can you do? / it's not really that bad anyway" charade in which everybody knows but nobody talks about anything, as though there's no other way for it to be. (German readers may be reminded of last year's "unword" of the year right now...)

The genie is out of the bottle now, and in my admittedly biased impression, even in Japan most fans would desire a "clean" Ozumo over the "traditional" one, if they actually had the choice. I hope they make use of the opportunity the scandal is giving them.

Possibly, but that's a long-term "project." I was thinking more of an ad-hoc fan perspective. And the forum post suggest that is indeed how they are dissected

[shumitto 418]

But the point is what if they have not done it.

I've taken the rather risky premise that no one is really that innocent. Either by actively doing yaocho or by simply closing an eye to it, they (the implied and the others) are all somewhat involved and know what has been happening being part of this association(Kyokai). It seems harsh, though, to be put out without a shed of evidence as a scapegoat, but past experience has shown some kyokai decisions to be much more political than anything else, so by being in the same boat and having the kyokai as your boss rikishi are liable to their employee's poor criteria with which their quite familiar so don't have much to complain about when turned into victims.

The "If you cannot take the heat, get out of the kitchen" applies here...

Edited April 4, 2011 by shumitto

[Peterao 3]

Asahi is saying that the Kyokai has decided on the free Natsu basho in Tokyo route, with lots of "self-restraint" (ie no Emperor's Cup, etc.), though nothing will be officially determined until the riji meeting on the 6th.

Bad move, IMHO. If they have to hold a basho, they should do it in Osaka, partly to apologize to those people, and partly because Tokyo is still in no condition to be hosting such an event.

Edited April 4, 2011 by Peterao

[Asashosakari 18,650]

Bad move, IMHO. If they have to hold a basho, they should do it in Osaka, partly to apologize to those people, and partly because Tokyo is still in no condition to be hosting such an event.

Doubt it's feasible at all to use the usual Osaka heya lodgings on such short notice.

Not to mention the gymnasium. I looked at this a while ago when somebody made the same suggestion on Sumotalk and my impression was that the arena is booked solid for months in advance.

Edited April 4, 2011 by Asashosakari

[Peterao 3]

Bad move, IMHO. If they have to hold a basho, they should do it in Osaka, partly to apologize to those people, and partly because Tokyo is still in no condition to be hosting such an event.

Doubt it's feasible at all to use the usual Osaka heya lodgings on such short notice.

Not to mention the gymnasium. I looked at this a while ago when somebody made the same suggestion on Sumotalk and my impression was that the arena is booked solid for months in advance.

They don't have to hold it in the gymnasium. Hold it anywhere you can; a public park, the Ritz-Carlton Osaka Grand Ballroom, wherever. It's a free basho anyway, so it's not like the profit is going to change depending on where the sumo is held.

[Asashosakari 18,650]

They don't have to hold it in the gymnasium. Hold it anywhere you can; a public park, the Ritz-Carlton Osaka Grand Ballroom, wherever. It's a free basho anyway, so it's not like the profit is going to change depending on where the sumo is held.

I guess you're trolling again. This is Ozumo, not the Mid-Maryland Pro Wrestling Federation.

[Peterao 3]

They don't have to hold it in the gymnasium. Hold it anywhere you can; a public park, the Ritz-Carlton Osaka Grand Ballroom, wherever. It's a free basho anyway, so it's not like the profit is going to change depending on where the sumo is held.

I guess you're trolling again. This is Ozumo, not the Mid-Maryland Pro Wrestling Federation.

Am I trolling if I ask what that has to do with anything I said?

If stating an opinion is trolling, then guilty as charged. But I still don't see why they couldn't hold a jungyo like affair in Osaka with more than a month to plan.

(Of course my preferred option is still no Basho at all until the full accounting promised by Hanaregoma rijicho is completed.)

[Peterao 3]

So far today, three rikishi are known to have turned in their intai paperwork: Kotokasuga, Kasugao, and Mokonami, all Makunouchi rikishi. Who else will get theirs in by the deadline?

I say everyone except Asoufuji and Masatsukasa.

Ah sou? Fuji has also turned in his paperwork. "I cannot cause trouble for my shisho any longer." sayeth he.

Guess this will end quietly, just how the Japanese like it...

[Kuroyama 715]

Where are people getting this "beyond a reasonable doubt" stuff from? That's for a criminal conviction, not a bout-fixing investigation.

Guess what the coming law-cases will make of it? We already have a fat calumny-case possibility and "beyond a reasonable doubt" is the key here.

I have not heard that Continental/Japanese law is much different from UK/US law in this regard. For civil matters, one side or the other need not prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt, but only show by a preponderance of the evidence that their position is the more likely. That's a very different standard of proof.

On a tangent, while I doubt the Ozeki will be directly punished -- after all, they had no need for the kind of explicit arrangements that leave a trail of hard evidence -- they must be aware that the "back-scratchers' club" must now be a thing of the past, and "unmotivated sumo" will no longer be treated lightly. And fans clamoring for the end of yaocho must realize that without it, Kaio's career will not last much longer. He showed us a little while ago that he can still pull off surprising results once in a while, and no doubt the enforced break will have given him more time than usual to heal up, so I think we can look forward to at least another year from him. But next time he's kadoban, I don't think he can expect any favors.

Edited April 4, 2011 by Kuroyama

[Kintamayama 44,181]

Asahi is saying that the Kyokai has decided on the free Natsu basho in Tokyo route, with lots of "self-restraint" (ie no Emperor's Cup, etc.), though nothing will be officially determined until the riji meeting on the 6th.

With collection boxes where fans can donate money for the stricken areas. All records will count.

[Peterao 3]

On a tangent, while I doubt the Ozeki will be directly punished -- after all, they had no need for the kind of explicit arrangements that leave a trail of hard evidence -- they must be aware that the "back-scratchers' club" must now be a thing of the past, and "unmotivated sumo" will no longer be treated lightly. And fans clamoring for the end of yaocho must realize that without it, Kaio's career will not last much longer. He showed us a little while ago that he can still pull off surprising results once in a while, and no doubt the enforced break will have given him more time than usual to heal up, so I think we can look forward to at least another year from him. But next time he's kadoban, I don't think he can expect any favors.

Although if he's forced into all out sumo all of the time, maybe he won't hesitate to use the dreaded Kaionage every chance he gets?

[Peterao 3]

The Ministry's comment on holding Natsu Basho: "The investigation isn't finished. After all suspects are vetted, punishments are handed out, and preventative measures are put in place, only then will we be able to judge."

[Kuroyama 715]

On a tangent, while I doubt the Ozeki will be directly punished -- after all, they had no need for the kind of explicit arrangements that leave a trail of hard evidence -- they must be aware that the "back-scratchers' club" must now be a thing of the past, and "unmotivated sumo" will no longer be treated lightly. And fans clamoring for the end of yaocho must realize that without it, Kaio's career will not last much longer. He showed us a little while ago that he can still pull off surprising results once in a while, and no doubt the enforced break will have given him more time than usual to heal up, so I think we can look forward to at least another year from him. But next time he's kadoban, I don't think he can expect any favors.

Although if he's forced into all out sumo all of the time, maybe he won't hesitate to use the dreaded Kaionage every chance he gets?

I see no sign that he hesitates to use it now. A smart aite does everything he reasonably can to not give him that opportunity.

[Peterao 3]

Just came from the Kokugikan underground parking lot. Yamamotoyama, Sakaizawa and Shironoami have retired. All were in tears. None had any idea what they would do from now on, though Sakaizawa said he may work (or open) a restaurant.

On my way back I met Wakatenro. He has also decided to retire. Like the Onoe guys he has no idea what the future holds.

Accepting the offer to go intai is basically an admission of guilt, so it's hard for me to feel sympathy for any of these guys. Though I do hope that they learn from this life lesson, and go on to have good lives.

And I hope that Yamamotoyama will start losing weight, now that he has no reason to be so huge...

[Peterao 3]

I haven't heard that Kyokai has threatened to kill anybody yet, and their yakuza connections aren't as strong as they once were...

[Peterao 3]

The ex-Kaiho is not a wuss. He is a MAN who is NOT submitting intai paperwork.

[ilovesumo 12]

Can anyone give an update on newly opened gaijin-slots?

Hanakago and Hakkaku still have foreign deshi left, but I think Michinoku has some free space now?

[Kintamayama 44,181]

The Ministry's comment on holding Natsu Basho: "The investigation isn't finished. After all suspects are vetted, punishments are handed out, and preventative measures are put in place, only then will we be able to judge."

The minister's comment: "The Kyokai has shown that they are serious in their efforts to eradicate yaocho and it has been noted." Asked about the other criteria (reform etc..): "I ask them to continue making their best efforts."