Yaocho by mobile scandal-

[Asashosakari 18,786]

Polygraph tests, seriously? If there's one approach that might well yield even more false positives and false negatives than the way the investigation committee has gone about it (testimony by a single insider), that's probably it.

[Jonosuke 28]

Some here may have been misled in thinking that the committee had some solid evidence but it should have been clear to everyone that these guys have nothing except those call logs that started the whole thing and "admission" they got by using pressurized tactics from some rikishi.

Now the Board is further threatening to the oyakata and rikishi that if all these guys won't go away quietly there would be no hon-basho. The whole thing is a total mess and farce that would not resolve anything and not get them move forward. The committee members themselves admit there are "grey" rikishi so no one has been treated fairly and equally.

The Kyokai can force them all to leave by threatening them one way or another by withholding retirement money or applying them outright expulsion if they don't go quietly but the stink will linger on and on and it will not help their image one iota.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Jonosuke

[Treblemaker 254]

I personally will never believe that any yaocho investigation is complete until at least one ozeki, past or present, is implicated.

And I completely agree. Frankly, there's almost NO way someone reaches that level without SOME kind of slight-of-hand going on somewhere. This is perhaps absolutely a case of "Don't ask, Don't tell". With any REAL investigation, all kinds of skeletons would fall out of numerous closets. The fact that the Kyokai is choosing anally drastic measures with what appears to be incomplete testimony only speaks to the point that they want this over as soon as possible, for obvious reasons.

I said in the other forum, and I say here: Give everyone in the organization, from the top down, a polygraph test. Everyone. From Hakuho to the lowest Sandame. Test ALL Oyakatas (without exception), x-Yokozunas, everyone. You want a complete investigation? That's the way to do it. The technology today makes it almost impossible to escape reality. I think you'll find that at least 80% if not more of Makuuchi, including the sanyaku, have at one time or another dipped into the pool.

The findings, I think, will indicate that almost everyone in sumo has pulled this stunt, (and for many years) and with that, the reality will be that it was/is so commonplace that it is part and parcel of what sumo is.

If the Kyokai is going to hand out such harsh punishment, so be it, but put everyone on the same playing field. And I mean EVERYONE. From the guys in white cotton to the MIB.

do you actually want another tournament?

Of course.

But if you're going to do something, do it right. Or not at all. Don't boot some people (especially those who don't upset the applecart) without really going deep into the scandal. Either do a complete (and I MEAN complete) investigation, or chose to "warn" those who come up positive, whoever they are. Don't do something half-a$$ed. My Dad used to say, "$h!t, or get off the pot."

My point is, that this yaocho didn't just appear within the last 3 years. It's been around for decades, maybe longer. It's a part of sumo. Accept the fact that what was, was, warn people that this will not continue without harsh measures, apologize to the fans and supporters for some of the "play-acting", and move on.

If you're going to boot people out, good. Boot people out. But boot out the ones who fit the criteria. All of them, regardless of who it is.

Or not. Don't "make an example". Make a statement. An organization like the Kyokai owes it to itself and its fans.

[ryafuji 807]

Can anyone clarify what suspending an oyakata actually means?

They are not suspended, they are relegated in class, each of them two classes. It means that an oyakata who was a riji like Kokonoe may find himself talking to old ladies at the KKan, or worse yet, guarding an emergency exit door. It's mostly a job thing, and maybe a salary cut, although I could not find anything regarding that.

I think Naganoyama was referring to ex-Kasuganishiki, who was given a two-year suspension. If he had not chosen to quit anyway, how would that have worked?

[Kintamayama 44,354]

I think Naganoyama was referring to ex-Kasuganishiki, who was given a two-year suspension. If he had not chosen to quit anyway, how would that have worked?

Good question. I would guess he would remain in the heya in the capacity of a "civilian"- many heyas have this, and after two years resume his duties as an Oyakata. Something in the pay would change obviously as well. I guess they all knew he would leave so it's actually a non-whatever-that word is that I can't remember now.

[Jonosuke 28]

I think Naganoyama was referring to ex-Kasuganishiki, who was given a two-year suspension. If he had not chosen to quit anyway, how would that have worked?

Good question. I would guess he would remain in the heya in the capacity of a "civilian"- many heyas have this, and after two years resume his duties as an Oyakata. Something in the pay would change obviously as well. I guess they all knew he would leave so it's actually a non-whatever-that word is that I can't remember now.

Once one acquired a Toshoyori Myoseki, he will always have it unless it is stripped away like ex-Kanechika so with a suspension which is one lesser degree below a demotion, he will sill have the oyakata-ship without pay. During the two year he will not participate in any Kyokai related activities and assume their function but we all know the the two year suspension is equivalent to "retirement advisory".

By retiring, he is still eligible for retirement pay and pension and also will be able to transfer the Myoseki to another rikishi.

Besides if he stays, he should have known his life will be a pure hell after blurting out to reporters shortly after his name was bandied around, he would never become one scapegoat and intended to take several dozen others with him.

[Kintamayama 44,354]

Besides if he stays, he should have known his life will be a pure hell after blurting out to reporters shortly after his name was bandied around, he would never become one scapegoat and intended to take several dozen others with him.

And he certainly lived up to his promise in a big way.

[Kintamayama 44,354]

My point is, that this yaocho didn't just appear within the last 3 years. It's been around for decades, maybe longer. It's a part of sumo. Accept the fact that what was, was, warn people that this will not continue without harsh measures, apologize to the fans and supporters for some of the "play-acting", and move on. If you're going to boot people out, good. Boot people out. But boot out the ones who fit the criteria. All of them, regardless of who it is.

This just about sums up the whole story.

[Asashosakari 18,786]

Once one acquired a Toshoyori Myoseki, he will always have it unless it is stripped away like ex-Kanechika so with a suspension which is one lesser degree below a demotion, he will sill have the oyakata-ship without pay.

Kasuganishiki's kabu is only on loan. I'm sure they could've figured out some way to get Tochinonada to revoke his right to use it.

[Kintamayama 44,354]

I wrote this at the beginning of this thread on February 6th, a month before the quake:

More fallout-the Fukushima jungyo slated for the summer is now canceled. "The contract wasn't finalized yet, but we feel it is not the time and have said so to the Kyokai," said someone.

Eerie.

[Peterao 3]

My point is, that this yaocho didn't just appear within the last 3 years. It's been around for decades, maybe longer. It's a part of sumo. Accept the fact that what was, was, warn people that this will not continue without harsh measures, apologize to the fans and supporters for some of the "play-acting", and move on. If you're going to boot people out, good. Boot people out. But boot out the ones who fit the criteria. All of them, regardless of who it is.

This just about sums up the whole story.

Going forward, I think that the story will be not that the Kyokai can prove the guilt of the implicated rikishi, but that the Kyokai believes it has the right to terminate these people regardless of their guilt or innocence.

[Peterao 3]

I wrote this at the beginning of this thread on February 6th, a month before the quake:

More fallout-the Fukushima jungyo slated for the summer is now canceled. "The contract wasn't finalized yet, but we feel it is not the time and have said so to the Kyokai," said someone.

Eerie.

I guess we should stop using the word "fallout" so flippantly?

On another note, my cell phone won't let me read Sports Hochi articles, so I'm only going by the headline in Google News, but apparently one oyakata tried to defend those implicated by saying "borrowing and lending wins is not yaocho!" If people in power still believe that there are justifiable reasons for throwing a bout, then I don't see any hope for true reform.

[Asashosakari 18,786]

Going forward, I think that the story will be not that the Kyokai can prove the guilt of the implicated rikishi, but that the Kyokai believes it has the right to terminate these people regardless of their guilt or innocence.

It's not like there's anything in their history that would make them not believe so. The Boradzov brothers tried and failed, and if we knew how many "voluntary retirements" in the last 60 years were actually coerced by the leadership or by an individual shisho, I think we'd all be surprised at how large the number is. Let's face it, if the phones hadn't been found, this likely would have ended with Kasuganishiki quietly leaving the Kyokai in a few years when he's unable to secure another kabu loan because everyone on the inside has more worthy choices in mind for the limited number of spots, a coerced retirement of a different sort.

People tend to act like there's never been any internal policing in the Kyokai against bad apples (whether they're socially stunted jerks, useless fools or simply guys with a bad reputation), when it's actually just the application of a different ethos than what outside observers want to see implemented. I hesitate to call it "the Japanese way of doing business", because IMHO it's a specific approach that isn't quite comparable to how Japanese corporations are run, even if there are some similarities. As Jonosuke points out, it's difficult to permanently remove an oyakata because he's a stakeholder and not just an employee, but I think it's pretty clear that they've at least been trying to minimize the influence that said bad apples have. (Arguably it's more noticeable at the other end of the spectrum, when fairly non-descript oyakata like ex-Dairyu or ex-Kobo are being kept on board for their skills through difficult circumstances even if it requires lots of people to jump through lots of hoops.)

It doesn't always work, and for major issues like yaocho it might well be doomed to failure*, but anyone who's read my posts knows that I'm highly skeptical of the current trend towards "forced policing by press coverage", too, because instead of having a few bad apples left inside rikishi and other Kyokai members are getting fired left and right at the first opportunity since there's no other way to calm down the public hysteria. The notion of "guilty beyond reasonable doubt" is an inevitable victim of that. And I'm including the pot brothers in all that - I wasn't too sad to see them gone, but the whole thing was still a media-driven circus that didn't have to end with a summary firing.

* Before somebody brings it up: the Tokitaizan incident was obviously a major and tragic failure of the Kyokai's internal policing.

Maybe the next leadership generation will be more successful at marrying today's changing societal demands with the requirements for governing the Kyokai effectively. The current generation has clearly been steamrolled by something they either didn't see coming or feel powerless to deal with.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Asashosakari

[Treblemaker 254]

......The current generation has clearly been steamrolled by something they either didn't see coming or feel powerless to deal with.

Wow.. just reading that brought to mind the TEPCO people and their struggle to deal with the reactors.....

[Jonosuke 28]

Once one acquired a Toshoyori Myoseki, he will always have it unless it is stripped away like ex-Kanechika so with a suspension which is one lesser degree below a demotion, he will sill have the oyakata-ship without pay.

Kasuganishiki's kabu is only on loan. I'm sure they could've figured out some way to get Tochinonada to revoke his right to use it.

Yeah actually I was thinking it may not have his while I wrote it (didn't even bother to check for such a wretched soul, far worse than ex-Wakanoho who kept recanting his testimony, at the end no one could figure what he was talking about).

I still think Kuzu-nishiki would have pretty much accomplished what he did after all these yaocho even if he had not, basically I consider it was totally fruitless exercise. He may have gained a few basho here and there but he was only an accidental Sanyaku material.

He didn't want to leave known as the only "bad apple" obviously but he is still a small fly at the end of the day. Although I was never a part of your Ozeki Backscratching Club but if the Kyokai is serious enough and they mean business why haven't they go after someone like Kotooshu and ex-Chiyotaikai where we heard so many rumors about in the past?

Edited April 4, 2011 by Jonosuke

[Peterao 3]

On another note, my cell phone won't let me read Sports Hochi articles, so I'm only going by the headline in Google News, but apparently one oyakata tried to defend those implicated by saying "borrowing and lending wins is not yaocho!"

In addition to this being true, when a reporter questioned a riji (presumably one of those not about to resign) about this, the riji himself flat out stated "I'm also of the opinion that lending and borrowing wins is not yaocho." While there may be semantical differences, I find it amazingly KY for a person in power to say this so plainly. Surely it's obvious that the borrowing and lending of wins is a gateway drug to outright selling them!?

[Hananotaka 8]

Unfortunately, the nature of yaocho makes any kind of investigation and subsequent punishment messy and ultimately unsatisfying.

The Kyokai is caught between a rock (MEXT demanding a full investigation, with results) and a hard place (protecting civil rights, investigating beyond a reasonable doubt, as argued by Jonosuke and many of the punished rikishi and oyakata). The Kyokai is not set up to do full investigations that can find guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, especially with something like yaocho which leaves virtually no hard evidence.

In this situation, we do have hard evidence of yaocho, rare as hen's teeth, and even then you have Kiyoseumi utterly denying everything. Clear evidence of yaocho requires one or more involved rikishi to confess; but all the involved rikishi have to do is deny. They don't need an alibi, they don't need to get their stories straight, they just need to deny. The Kyokai is hardly trained to handle interrogations. What paper trail that exists is basically in bank records and cell phones -- which the Kyokai has no legal right to demand, and which they cannot subpoena. If a rikishi says, "I lost/threw away/broke my phone," or refuses to provide his bank records, the Kyokai is out of luck. The only reason the Kyokai has this cell phone evidence is because the police found it in the course of an investigation that actually involved a crime.

If the Kyokai must stick with hard evidence, basically you have Kasuganishiki, Enatsukasa, Chiyohakuho, and Kiyoseumi. Not surprisingly, three of these four confessed. If you loosen restrictions to circumstantial evidence, then you get Koryu, Yamamtoyama, Kaiho, Toyozakura, Wakatenrou, Shirononami, and Kyokunankai. Then you have to judge whether the evidence against them is beyond a reasonable doubt, depending on their defenses. Against Shimotori and Shotenro, the evidence is even less, and if anything points to them being not involved in yaocho. Beyond that, you're stuck with whomever any of the above are willing to name, but that's likely to be the extent of your evidence. Maybe bank records to confirm certain deals, but the Kyokai can't subpoena them. You're not going to get beyond a reasonable doubt.

So, Peterao's hoped-for involved Ozeki is not likely to surface. If the Kyokai plays it conservative and just fires Kasuganishiki, Enatsukasa, Chiyohakuho and Kiyoseumi, MEXT and other anti-yaocho voices are not going to be satisfied, and I doubt anyone would think that this has cleaned the sumo world of yaocho. Go broader than that, and many will protest the capricious natures of the punishments without hard evidence, and of course it's unlikely people will think this has cleared the sumo world of yaocho. In this case, tradition has dealt the Kyokai a bad hand, and I wonder if this wasn't the best they could do.

[Peterao 3]

So far today, three rikishi are known to have turned in their intai paperwork: Kotokasuga, Kasugao, and Mokonami, all Makunouchi rikishi. Who else will get theirs in by the deadline?

[Kintamayama 44,354]

So far today, three rikishi are known to have turned in their intai paperwork: Kotokasuga, Kasugao, and Mokonami, all Makunouchi rikishi. Who else will get theirs in by the deadline?

I say everyone except Asoufuji and Masatsukasa.

[Peterao 3]

So far today, three rikishi are known to have turned in their intai paperwork: Kotokasuga, Kasugao, and Mokonami, all Makunouchi rikishi. Who else will get theirs in by the deadline?

I say everyone except Asoufuji and Masatsukasa.

So there will be only two rikishi left in all of Ozumo? That would make Natsu Basho a breeze!

[Kintamayama 44,354]

So far today, three rikishi are known to have turned in their intai paperwork: Kotokasuga, Kasugao, and Mokonami, all Makunouchi rikishi. Who else will get theirs in by the deadline?

I say everyone except Asoufuji and Masatsukasa.

So there will be only two rikishi left in all of Ozumo? That would make Natsu Basho a breeze!

Yes.

[Kuroyama 715]

Where are people getting this "beyond a reasonable doubt" stuff from? That's for a criminal conviction, not a bout-fixing investigation.

[ilovesumo 12]

My point is, that this yaocho didn't just appear within the last 3 years. It's been around for decades, maybe longer. It's a part of sumo. Accept the fact that what was, was, warn people that this will not continue without harsh measures, apologize to the fans and supporters for some of the "play-acting", and move on. If you're going to boot people out, good. Boot people out. But boot out the ones who fit the criteria. All of them, regardless of who it is.

This just about sums up the whole story.

And any law-case will play it all out. If no such cases happen the hush-money to prevent such cases will prove the real size of the BS.

No "tainted Rikishi" will "die alone" - especially if the yaocho-masters from the past talk about moral now...(that is the real big farce)

And - don't forget all the other problems of the Sumo-world plus the quake-related problems etc.etc.

Am a fatalist who really wonders about the future of Pro-Sumo now.

[ilovesumo 12]

Where are people getting this "beyond a reasonable doubt" stuff from? That's for a criminal conviction, not a bout-fixing investigation.

Guess what the coming law-cases will make of it? We already have a fat calumny-case possibility and "beyond a reasonable doubt" is the key here.

[Peterao 3]

Am a fatalist who really wonders about the future of Pro-Sumo now.

Who's making fun of my poll now?