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Kintamayama

Yaocho by mobile scandal-

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Here's the gist. It's not one long continuous conversation, but a bunch of fragments, often vague in terms of what's being referred to. The vague one's I've tried to keep as vague as possible.

-Josh

March 17, 2010 Kasuganishiki to Enatsukasa: etc..

Thanks so much-totally riveting. (Shaking head...)

When I was watching the Fuji TV news tonight it was more than annoying to hear the voice over of the reporters pretending to be Kasuganishiki, et all... The news was disgusting enough but to hear these guys saying the voice overs with some serious gangster tones was more annoying!

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New bad news again...we had to wait for so long... :-/

(not that I would be surprised)

We can expect some new books by people who left the Kyokai already...

Same with new law cases - Gendai strikes back, hum?

Not that I am pessimistic, but the carpet already touches the ceilin and the views by members, seeing the whole big thing in danger, aren't unrealistic at all.

Now you all can have a nice burst of laughter - just booked the flight to Osaka.

(Shaking head...) Went there before but never had time to visit the castle...

hopefully I won't have time now...

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Seconding the thanks, Hananotaka. (Annoyed...) Is it just me, or do those messages make Kasuganishiki sound like he was very likely a sort of ring-leader among the juryo guys? Even accounting for the fact that it's coming from his phone, there's an awful lot of discussion between him and Enatsukasa about how to settle scores that really don't have anything to do with him (e.g. the vague Shimotori/Koryu stuff) or settlements whose complexity goes way beyond what one would expect to see from a rikishi who's mainly concerned with his own position within the network.

Edited by Asashosakari

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External members of a special committee set up by the Kyokai to investigate this yaocho matter will need to act quickly and decisively if the Kyokai wants to save the Haru Basho. The committee chairman is saying they would interview each of alleged participants individually and at length as well as sending out a survey to all of over 900 members of the Kyokai. Even if they work overtime, they won't likely finish the whole thing by the end of month and by then everyone has to get busy and needs to get prepared for Haru Basho if they want to have the basho open.

Haru Basho is especially important to the Kyokai as that's the basho most of their recruits join. Now if the recruits are really keen on joining, they may join the following basho but that one month or two they wait for can be trying for them as their family members and friends all will be advising against and convincing them not to join such a listing ship. Who knows what the future holds for this organization, they will say.

Already Min of EduSci officials are stating publicly, the Kyokai even shouldn't be thinking of holding another basho until they can come clean on all this. Ticket sale in Osaka has been dismal up to now so this bit of news won't encourage folks to rush to the ticket windows either.

As I mentioned the Kyokai's needs to have their non-profit organization status approved by the Min of EduSci in two years but now not only the minister but the cabinet secretary stated that the Kyokai is in real danger of losing the status right now. Many think it's not a big deal as they just need to form a business corporation to start out but the law says before a non-profit organization can do so, they will need to clear out all their assets and in case of the Kyokai, it includes the Kokugikan which they will have to "donate" to another charitable organization.

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In case anyone was wondering, while Kasuganishiki, Chiyohakuho and Enatsukasa admitted their involvement, Kiyoseumi continues to deny he participated in yaocho even with his text messages being found on Kasuganishiki's phone.

This denial won't be feasible for much longer. Police are saying that, on June 24th, Kiyoseumi sent a mail saying "please delete all of our mail correspondence."

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As I mentioned the Kyokai's needs to have their non-profit organization status approved by the Min of EduSci in two years but now not only the minister but the cabinet secretary stated that the Kyokai is in real danger of losing the status right now. Many think it's not a big deal as they just need to form a business corporation to start out but the law says before a non-profit organization can do so, they will need to clear out all their assets and in case of the Kyokai, it includes the Kokugikan which they will have to "donate" to another charitable organization.

Thank you for bringing this up. It's a very interesting topic. I never understood how the Kyoukai could fit into the category - from what we know is really going on -

Here the law (English translation) for those interested in it. (popping up PDF)

Read Section 4

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And here comes the re-opening of old wounds, namely the big expose (Asashoryu and otherwise) by Shukan Gendai back in 2007. In response, Gendai publisher Kodansha was sued in the names of the Kyokai and several dozen rikishi named in the reports - among them Kasuganishiki and Toyozakura who apparently both testified to the non-existence of yaocho during the trial, each eventually receiving 220,000 yen as their part of the court-ordered damage payout against Kodansha. I probably don't need to explain where this might be going.

Meanwhile it's being said that the three who have admitted their culpability may be the first Kyokai members ever to suffer expulsion (除名) from the sumo world, the most severe punishment available under the Kyokai's charter, possibly as early as the Feb 6 board meeting. Expulsion will require a 75% vote by the assembly of oyakata, tate-gyoji and whoever else is entitled to vote (Kaio as a Japanese citizenship ozeki, I think). Kiyoseumi may escape that particular fate as long as he sticks to his complete denial, but will likely be punished severely as well if they do go ahead with everything on the 6th. The shisho of the involved rikishi are likely set to be dealt their own penalties for failing to uphold their supervisory responsibilities.

Incidentally, Kirinowaka was told on by Chiyohakuho during his confession.

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With all this mess I think there are not many words about real victims of such club approach of Juryo.

What about makushita rikishi denied promotion recently because of yaocho in Juryo, in spite of their promotable records?

Is it possible to identify anybody with such bad luck?

Is there any possibility (however improbable) they could claim any damages from club members?

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"A now infamous whistle-blowing book by veteran wrestler Onaruto and commentator Seiichiro Hashimoto in 1996 made similar match-rigging claims. Most damaging of all in a sport that is steeped in pseudo-religious tradition, Hashimoto said it was

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Seconding the thanks, Hananotaka. (Annoyed...) Is it just me, or do those messages make Kasuganishiki sound like he was very likely a sort of ring-leader among the juryo guys? Even accounting for the fact that it's coming from his phone, there's an awful lot of discussion between him and Enatsukasa about how to settle scores that really don't have anything to do with him (e.g. the vague Shimotori/Koryu stuff) or settlements whose complexity goes way beyond what one would expect to see from a rikishi who's mainly concerned with his own position within the network.

I don't get that impression. The Shimotori reference is vague in the extreme. The Japanese is 霜は厳しいみたいです~。Shimo wa kibishii mitai desuu. That could mean Enatsukasa inquired about taking a fall for Kasuganishiki, but Shimotori was not willing, either because he was gachinko or because the offer wasn't good enough. It could be Enatsukasa commenting that a match with Shimotori looked difficult, so they needed to arrange a win against someone else. Everything else revolves around who Kasuganishiki owes and who owes him, and how he can use that to his best advantage. The first mail establishes that Kasuganishiki is owed by Koryu and YMY, and that he owes Toyozakura, Shirononami, Wakatenro, and possibly Kaiho. One thing he seems to be trying to do is clear his debts by calling in the favors owed to him for past losses. Just speculating, but I suspect that his debt to Kaiho was not cleared (he owed Kaiho a loss), so he suggests clearing it by having Koryu (who owes Kasuganishiki a loss) lose to Kaiho, clearing all debts. I tried finding a March 2010 torikumi or hoshitori to confirm, but it was late when I did the translation, so I gave up relatively quickly. (Sumo Reference wasn't loading.) We see him later offer to sell his win vs. Koryu to Kiyoseumi for 200,000 yen, so perhaps he didn't owe Kaiho after all, or Kaiho was confident enough about beating Koryu that he didn't want to buy the win, or perhaps Kasuganishiki paid him off in money (thus leading to some of his later money troubles). Or indeed, if someone could check the records, it could be that Koryu owed Kasuganishiki, paid it back by losing to Kaiho, and then Kasuganishiki bought another loss from Koryu that he (Kasuganishiki) then tried to sell to Kiyoseumi, perhaps at a profit.

We see the same thing when he asks about the Toyozakura-Kiyoseumi bout. Kiyoseumi owes him a win, and he owes Toyozakura. He says if the two don't have their own plans, then he can clear his account vs. Toyozakura by a loss from Kiyoseumi.

From what I can tell, it's all about Kasuganishiki.

Edited by Hananotaka

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I had a dream this night ...

Sadogatake Oyakata was head of a jungyo somewhere overseas. I wanted to go there together with my friend and went to the ticket box to get tickets for 2 days. The lady showed me the seats available: 11 seats and none of them was sold yet - 1 hour before it should start. Well, I bought 2 of them and went into the arena which happened to be smaller than my living room at home. The dohyo was so small that only 2 rikishi could have performed a dohyo iri, but nothing happened anyway. Three more peole came in, but not to watch sumo but to talk about some business. After a while I went out to look if I could find some rikishi outside. I went around the tent , no one there, until I suddenly met Sadogatake Oyakata who was bitter weeping that he couldn't find any rikishi ...

what a nightmare ...

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With all this mess I think there are not many words about real victims of such club approach of Juryo.

What about makushita rikishi denied promotion recently because of yaocho in Juryo, in spite of their promotable records?

Is it possible to identify anybody with such bad luck?

Is there any possibility (however improbable) they could claim any damages from club members?

A very difficult question but I was thinking the same, looking at all those poor guys being near the top of Makushita for many years without ever making it to the sekitori ranks.

If all now mentioned names are verified I would say that now-retired Surugatsukasa got robbed of a Juryo promotion in Kyushu 2009. Just look at the results that basho:

8-7 Kirinowaka J10 Daishoumi 4-11 ↓

9-6 Tosanoumi J11 Kiyoseumi 8-7

9-6 Chiyohakuho J12 Shirononami 9-6

9-6 Kasuganishiki J13 Hoshikaze 9-6

8-7 Gagamaru J14 Kotoyutaka 4-11 ↓

5-2 ↑ Sokokurai Ms1 Miyamoto 5-2 ↑

4-3 Surugatsukasa Ms2 Tokushinho 5-2

Surugatsukasa was fourth in the promotion line and I think that Kasuganishiki wasn't good enough for Juryo already at that time, but he had wins against Gagamaru, Chiyohakuho, Kiyoseumi, Wakatenro and Kyokunankai. Gagamaru was 4-7 but finished the basho with four wins (Kaiho among the losers) and even Kirinowaka was in danger of demotion after a 1-5 start but afterwards had wins against Shirononami, Kaiho, Kasuganishiki, Kiyoseumi and Sakaizawa...

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Pre-basho sale of tickets for Haru Basho, scheduled to begin on Sunday, has been postponed. The new arrangements have yet to be determined.

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I can understand why the Freakonomics guys or the Japanese media would gloat. For years the NSK has bashed and sued the media for reporting on what is an open secret, and then collecting damages. The come uppance has been a long time in coming. I think there'd be far less gloating if the NSK as an organization had just issued a denial when allegations came, and refused to discuss it further. Instead, they made a big fuss when the issue arose, and rubbed the media's nose in it every chance they got.

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Thanks for posting that. As many people have an idea on how the typical yaocho bout might look like, I was very curious to see whether the bout appeared to be fishy. But even knowing that it was fishy, it looked legit to me.

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Thanks for posting that. As many people have an idea on how the typical yaocho bout might look like, I was very curious to see whether the bout appeared to be fishy. But even knowing that it was fishy, it looked legit to me.

Totally lost the interest in Sekitori-Sumo because of all this. :(

I must admit that I smell the fish for a few years and see far too many bouts that I am wondering about.

This resistance shortly before stepping out, or being thrown -it does look like an act (not as dramatic as in Hanazumo) - there is no real power in the resistance and sometimes you see the aite moving his body into the right position to fall.

You see that all the time... especially gaburiyori がぶり寄り is perfect to pretend resistance.

Edited by ilovesumo

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Thanks for posting that. As many people have an idea on how the typical yaocho bout might look like, I was very curious to see whether the bout appeared to be fishy. But even knowing that it was fishy, it looked legit to me.

The problem is that 99% of it was legit. This was hardly choreographed -- Kiyoseumi said, "I'll hit hard at tachiai and we'll go with the flow." Kasuganishiki said, "I'll hold my ground in the flow of things." At their level, it's easy for them to really go at it, sense when the loser is weak, and have the loser just not try hard to survive.

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I don't get that impression. The Shimotori reference is vague in the extreme. The Japanese is 霜は厳しいみたいです~。Shimo wa kibishii mitai desuu. That could mean Enatsukasa inquired about taking a fall for Kasuganishiki, but Shimotori was not willing, either because he was gachinko or because the offer wasn't good enough. It could be Enatsukasa commenting that a match with Shimotori looked difficult, so they needed to arrange a win against someone else.

Shimotori was ranked M15 in that upcoming basho, while Kasuganishiki was J9 - there's no way a match between them was going to happen, so at most they could be talking about a debt by Shimotori to some other rikishi. (The last time Shimo and Kasuga had faced was more than a year earlier, as Shimo was in makuuchi straight through 2009 and 2010, while Kasuganishiki was in juryo the entire time.) That's why I grouped him with Koryu, because he seems to be in a similar position ("We'll have to have Koryu take a fall if he goes up against one of the Juryo joi.") - it's not clear that it's even about the win he owes Kasuganishiki (Koryu was also out-of-range at M16 that basho), just that the only way to get that win back "into circulation" will be to hope for a makuuchi-juryo bout. Incidentally, Koryu faced Chiyohakuho on Day 6 - and won. Huh.

And if it's not about Shimotori owing anybody anything, but simply Enatsukasa's frustration with him in some other yaocho-based context, why is he talking with Kasuganishiki about it?

We see the same thing when he asks about the Toyozakura-Kiyoseumi bout. Kiyoseumi owes him a win, and he owes Toyozakura. He says if the two don't have their own plans, then he can clear his account vs. Toyozakura by a loss from Kiyoseumi.

Hmm, my impression was that Toyozakura-Kiyoseumi was meant to clear Kasuganishiki's debt to Kyokunankai:

May 12, Enatsukasa to Kasuganishiki: No reason for a mono-ii with today's sumo! Nankai-san (Kyokunankai) wants to give one of his savings to Toyo-zeki (Toyozakura). If you go up against Toyo-zeki, he'd like you to take a fall. ...

May 14, Kasuganishiki to Enatsukasa: What's it look like for Kiyo (Kiyoseumi) and Toyo (Toyozakura) today? If nothing's going on, we can clear what Kiyo owes me.

Edited by Asashosakari

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Shimotori was ranked M15 in that upcoming basho, while Kasuganishiki was J9 - there's no way a match between them was going to happen, so at most they could be talking about a debt by Shimotori to some other rikishi. (The last time Shimo and Kasuga had faced was more than a year earlier, as Shimo was in makuuchi straight through 2009 and 2010, while Kasuganishiki was in juryo the entire time.) That's why I grouped him with Koryu, because he seems to be in a similar position ("We'll have to have Koryu take a fall if he goes up against one of the Juryo joi.") - it's not clear that it's even about the win he owes Kasuganishiki (Koryu was also out-of-range at M16 that basho), just that the only way to get that win back "into circulation" will be to hope for a makuuchi-juryo bout. Incidentally, Koryu faced Chiyohakuho on Day 6 - and won. Huh.

A match wouldn't have to be directly between Kasuganishiki and Shimotori. If Kasuganishiki owed someone a win, who was going up against Shimotori, K&E may have been attempting to clear that debt by incurring one to Shimotori. Of course, Shimotori wanting to stay in Makuuchi and not likely to face Kasuganishiki may have been the reason the situation was "difficult" (kibishii). Another thing to consider is that Kasuganishiki has two concersn: hoshi and money. It could be that Shimotori owed Kasuganishiki money for something, perhaps he offered to buy a shiroboshi that someone owed Kasuganishiki, but paying for it at this time would be difficult. May is the month Kasuganishiki seems most worried about money. Thus, one possible consideration is that unable to get their promised money from Shimotori, they considered selling a kuroboshi from Koryu to someone in the joi. OR, it could even mean the opposite: they were thinking of selling a win from someone else to Koryu! The Japanese is actually rather difficult: 誰か十両上位と当たったら光龍にこけさせて移行させないといけないですね~. I gave it my best go given the Japanese available, but I would caution about speculating too much based on the translation.

光龍にこけさせて could mean either "have Koryu fall" or "have [someone] fall to Koryu". 移動させる suggests a transfer of hoshi, and to my mind, a relay. 誰か十両上位と当たったら is basically "If somebody goes up against the Juryo joi", but it's still a statement divorced of needed context. Perhaps Joe or one of the other native speakers on the list could give their take.

And if it's not about Shimotori owing anybody anything, but simply Enatsukasa's frustration with him in some other yaocho-based context, why is he talking with Kasuganishiki about it?

Frustration cannot be surmised, I'm afraid. The sentence is simply, "Shimotori (marked as topic), difficult/severe." It could really mean anything. It could be frustration, but it could also be regret, or even sympathy. But, even if we assume frustration, or whatever, in some other yaocho context, Enatsukasa could be talking to Kasuganishiki about it simply because Kasuganishiki is a fellow yaocho rikishi. Maybe he just wanted to vent, and the people he could vent to are essentially his yaocho nakama. The problem is that Japanese is a high context language, and we have far too little context to make much of many of the messages. I sometimes used "We" as a subject, but the subjects are all too often obscured, and the actual subject could just as easily be "I" or "You". The sentences concerning Shimotori and Koryu may not even be connected! Remember that we don't have the message from Kasuganishiki that Enatsukasa was responding to. Kasuganishiki may have mentioned some Shimotori related episode (to which Enatsukasa commented that Shimotori was "kibishii") and followed it with some yaocho talk (to which Enatsukasa addressed his juryo joi and Koryu comment.) Personally, I don't think that's very likely, but we can't discount the possibility, based on the mere fragment we have.

Did you mean another rikishi when you wrote "Koryu faced Chiyohakuho"? Because based on this email exchange, at least, there's no evidence that Koryu and Chiyohakuho planned yaocho. Chiyohakuho appears to have yaocho arranged with some unnamed rikishi (Enatsukasa's messages on March 17th and 22nd; there's a mistake in my translation where I attribute the one on the 17th to Kasuganishiki), money talk on Apr 9th, and a message on May 27th saying the Shotenro match was gachinko (it's prefaced by "Otsukaresama deshita", which could refer to anything),

We see the same thing when he asks about the Toyozakura-Kiyoseumi bout. Kiyoseumi owes him a win, and he owes Toyozakura. He says if the two don't have their own plans, then he can clear his account vs. Toyozakura by a loss from Kiyoseumi.

Hmm, my impression was that Toyozakura-Kiyoseumi was meant to clear Kasuganishiki's debt to Kyokunankai:

May 12, Enatsukasa to Kasuganishiki: No reason for a mono-ii with today's sumo! Nankai-san (Kyokunankai) wants to give one of his savings to Toyo-zeki (Toyozakura). If you go up against Toyo-zeki, he'd like you to take a fall. ...

May 14, Kasuganishiki to Enatsukasa: What's it look like for Kiyo (Kiyoseumi) and Toyo (Toyozakura) today? If nothing's going on, we can clear what Kiyo owes me.

Yep, that works, too. But it's still about how Kasuganishiki can best utilize his yaocho credit. All the non-Kasuganishiki matches seem to affect, or have the ability to affect, his balance. The only possible exception is the Shimotori reference, which IMO is too vague to draw any kind of conclusions.

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Thanks for the clarifactions. (Holiday feeling...)

Did you mean another rikishi when you wrote "Koryu faced Chiyohakuho"? Because based on this email exchange, at least, there's no evidence that Koryu and Chiyohakuho planned yaocho.

No, I did mean Chiyohakuho - he was a high-ranking juryo rikishi of the type Enatsukasa and Kasuganishiki discussed having Koryu lose against. Just a bit of surprise on my part that it didn't happen that way, irrespective of the availibility of corresponding phone messages (of which we don't know how complete they are).

Edit: Hmm, but now that I look again...Koryu faced Shimotori on Day 1, two days after the message (which was sent the same day the torikumi was published, hmm). I did assume the Shimotori and Koryu parts of that message were unconnected, but perhaps that's wrong. Perhaps Koryu didn't want to lose that bout (initially anyway; he did lose) so Enatsukasa was pondering alternative ways to take a win off him. Bah, this stuff makes my head hurt.

Edit again: Or indeed, if that passage is actually about Koryu being owed a win, it neatly ties together both his loss against Shimotori (the "difficult" part where they couldn't work things out) and his subsequent win over Chiyohakuho... But then I'd be back to my puzzlement about why Enatsukasa was "talking strategy" with Kasuganishiki.

Weirdly, the more I think about these more complicated fixes, the less I feel bothered by the simple 7-7 stuff. If only they'd kept it limited to that.

Edited by Asashosakari

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Bah, this stuff makes my head hurt.

Me too!!! and we are not the only ones. I spent an hour with a juryo (non implicated) rikishi tonight. As with the previous scandals he says the media are parked outside the heya all day... and every other heya too.... He said he can't understand how the media multiplies..

They just want a quote from anyone they can get so everyone says it is easier to stay inside than to even go out to the convenience store for a drink!

Keiko going on as usual at every place he knows.

Monday no keiko there will be a rikishi kai?? I wasn't sure he said that or not...

I mentioned Gagamaru's name that I had read in the forum here, he was shocked, as far as what they are hearing his name has not come up yet...

He sympathized with me about Yamamotoyama.... he said "I know you are good friends, it must hurt!"

Talking with others by telephone the general consensus is "those who did it are baka!"

Gee I couldn't agree more!

General consensus at three schools where I worked today...

nobody cares.. the ones who know nothing about sumo as well as the ones who like it could care less...

unfortunately more than one person said to me "I don't care because it is just entertainment, it is not a sport, it is like WWF or Pro Wrestling, it doesn't matter if it is fixed or not, just entertainment.."

That broke my heart. I didn't say anything to my sempai at work but if he watched them train and knew anything about how they train and live would he still think it is just entertainment??? He is not interested in sumo but I wish I could take him to practice to show him how they "train for entertainment.." (Holiday feeling...)

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I mentioned Gagamaru's name that I had read in the forum here, he was shocked, as far as what they are hearing his name has not come up yet...

Hopefully not much should be read into it. To clarify: There was a blurb in a Mainichi article that pointed out that the March 22 phone message (Enatsukasa to Chiyohakuho: "Today he'll charge strong at the tachiai.") seemed to make reference to a bout where the (unspecified in this article) opponent did not come up by name in that message nor any other, and speculated that something like this could lead to more rikishi being questioned than just the known 14, which so far were just the guys named outright + Kirinowaka. Around the same time another Mainichi article was posted with a timeline of the phone records and some annotations, and the message highlighted in the first article was annotated "the result of this day's bout was a win by Gagamaru" - but that timeline article did not make any comment about Gagamaru being in hot water because of it. I'm assuming the Mainichi was careful to split the veiled accusation on purpose.

Edited by Asashosakari

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