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Sashohitowa

Tochinoshin

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I don't know about "and yokozuna". Kotooshu's record against either yokozuna isn't good. Frankly, I have a hard time detecting that pattern at all with him. If anything, he tends to do well to start with and then has a losing streak against joi-jin and sanyaku. Or am I missing something in his record?

I was talking about his early ozeki career. Take a look at his first three years or so - while "always 5-5 or 6-4" was a bit of an exaggeration, his numbers sure weren't good. He did comparatively well against ozeki (yeah, nevermind the yokozuna part, I oversimplified).

Nowadays he's posting W>2*L against lower-ranked opponents pretty regularly.

His numbers weren't good -- but they weren't really bad either. It'd be unremarkable if he weren't an ozeki. As it is, given his overall record in those years, it's more or less what you'd expect, and I don't see that his performance is all that different between the two groups. Which may have been your point, and if so then OK.

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He is still at least a year from doing a serious Ozeki run. (In a state of confusion...)

I agree. Plus I don't consider a loss to Toyonoshima as a WTF bout. Now, if he starts losing regularly to the Hakubas and Hokutorikis, I will doubt his chances at greater success...

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Apropos today's match: Anybody else noticed the eerie parallel flight that Tochinoshin and Miyabiyama have engaged in this past year?

So, does that mean Miyabiyama is soon on a new Ozeki run? ;-)

Btw, having followed sumo scarcely the last few years I just now noticed that Kasugano really is turning into a powerhouse in sumo. Suits me fine since I liked old Tochinowaka. Musashigawa though seems to be on the brink of the generational shift from hell... (Ok, no news to those more active around here of late, but things you notice when trying to get back on track...).

Edited by Yubiquitoyama

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I think he deserves a Sanyaku rank next basho.

Well he could still finish makekoshi...

So, with Aminishiki MK 5-10, Tochiozan MK 7-8, Miyabiyama MK 5-10 and Toyonoshima MK 5-10, Tochinoshin will be Kumusubi next basho (Nagoya). He hardly made the KK but he was so determined in his bout with Tochiozan. Congratulations !

Edited by Achiyama

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So, with Aminishiki MK 5-10, Tochiozan MK 7-8, Miyabiyama MK 5-10 and Toyonoshima MK 5-10, Tochinoshin will be Kumusubi next basho (Nagoya). He hardly made the KK but he was so determined in his bout with Tochiozan. Congratulations !

Well... firstly, Tochinoshin can only be determined against Tochiozan in yusho kettei-sen or training bouts as both are from the same heya. Then I get the impression you are implying Tochinoshin as natural sanyaku next basho because he is the highest maegashira to get a kachi-koshi. While this is often true, such a rikishi can easily be overtaken from other below him with more wins. In this example I think Hakuba with 10-5 will be ahead of Tochinoshin, and Asasekiryu at 9-6 is quite close to him and if Tochinoshin is unlucky he might end up at M1e (or M1w behind Tochiozan if he is really unlucky).

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So, with Aminishiki MK 5-10, Tochiozan MK 7-8, Miyabiyama MK 5-10 and Toyonoshima MK 5-10, Tochinoshin will be Kumusubi next basho (Nagoya). He hardly made the KK but he was so determined in his bout with Tochiozan. Congratulations !

Well... firstly, Tochinoshin can only be determined against Tochiozan in yusho kettei-sen or training bouts as both are from the same heya. Then I get the impression you are implying Tochinoshin as natural sanyaku next basho because he is the highest maegashira to get a kachi-koshi. While this is often true, such a rikishi can easily be overtaken from other below him with more wins. In this example I think Hakuba with 10-5 will be ahead of Tochinoshin, and Asasekiryu at 9-6 is quite close to him and if Tochinoshin is unlucky he might end up at M1e (or M1w behind Tochiozan if he is really unlucky).

no way, he is komusubi 100%

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no way, he is komusubi 100%

I would not say 100%. I agree he has a good chance, but I concur with Doitsuyama, he could be third in line for the two open sanyaku slots.

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So, with Aminishiki MK 5-10, Tochiozan MK 7-8, Miyabiyama MK 5-10 and Toyonoshima MK 5-10, Tochinoshin will be Kumusubi next basho (Nagoya). He hardly made the KK but he was so determined in his bout with Tochiozan. Congratulations !

Well... firstly, Tochinoshin can only be determined against Tochiozan in yusho kettei-sen or training bouts as both are from the same heya. Then I get the impression you are implying Tochinoshin as natural sanyaku next basho because he is the highest maegashira to get a kachi-koshi. While this is often true, such a rikishi can easily be overtaken from other below him with more wins. In this example I think Hakuba with 10-5 will be ahead of Tochinoshin, and Asasekiryu at 9-6 is quite close to him and if Tochinoshin is unlucky he might end up at M1e (or M1w behind Tochiozan if he is really unlucky).

Indepenent of Tochinoshin will get the nod for Komusubi, he clearly should -- 8-7 at M2 is so much more difficult than 9-6 at M4.

I would advocate that

(i) rikishi at M4 or below can get promoted at most to Komusubi, unless there is absolultey no plausible Sekiwake candidate (with 7-8 at S good enough to stay if need be),

(ii) 8-7 at M1-3 always gets the nod over 9-6 at M4, 10-5 at M5 and 11-4 at M6 and below.

Edited by HenryK

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(ii) 8-7 at M1-3 always gets the nod over 9-6 at M4

That bit doesn't make much sense to me; the jo-jin usually extends down to M4 so they'd be fighting pretty much the same quality of opposition.

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(ii) 8-7 at M1-3 always gets the nod over 9-6 at M4

That bit doesn't make much sense to me; the jo-jin usually extends down to M4 so they'd be fighting pretty much the same quality of opposition.

How come? In my understanding JJ are the top 16 rikishi; with 2Y and 4O (or 1Y and 5O) this extends to M3W.

When there are only 5 Y/O I'd agree to stretch "M3" to M4E.

Edited by HenryK

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(ii) 8-7 at M1-3 always gets the nod over 9-6 at M4

That bit doesn't make much sense to me; the jo-jin usually extends down to M4 so they'd be fighting pretty much the same quality of opposition.

How come? JJ are the top 16 rikishi; with 2Y and 4O (or 1Y and 5O) this extends to M3W.

When there are only 5 Y/O I'd agree to stretch "M3" to M4E.

Just took a look at some old stats -- you've a point. M4 tends to be almost as tough as M3.

Edited by HenryK

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(ii) 8-7 at M1-3 always gets the nod over 9-6 at M4

That bit doesn't make much sense to me; the jo-jin usually extends down to M4 so they'd be fighting pretty much the same quality of opposition.

How come? JJ are the top 16 rikishi; with 2Y and 4O (or 1Y and 5O) this extends to M3W.

When there are only 5 Y/O I'd agree to stretch "M3" to M4E.

That definition is too rigid in my opinion - the glossary says "about the twenty highest ranked" which is what I've always understood it to be. A M4 is still highly likely to face an ozeki or two.

Edit: I see you acknowledged that while I was replying to you:)

Edited by ryafuji

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Why not look at the actual torikumi faced by each rikishi? Sometimes same-heya considerations and mid-basho kyujo will turn a rikishi into joi-jin fodder, in more complicated patterns than simply counting ranks will reveal. People sometimes overestimate the effect it has on the banzuke makers (and end up assuming that e.g. M2w 8-7 is going to be treated better than M5e 10-5), but as a tie-breaker in close decisions I figure it does have an effect.

Should be Tochinoshin.

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So, with Aminishiki MK 5-10, Tochiozan MK 7-8, Miyabiyama MK 5-10 and Toyonoshima MK 5-10, Tochinoshin will be Kumusubi next basho (Nagoya). He hardly made the KK but he was so determined in his bout with Tochiozan. Congratulations !

Well... firstly, Tochinoshin can only be determined against Tochiozan in yusho kettei-sen or training bouts as both are from the same heya. Then I get the impression you are implying Tochinoshin as natural sanyaku next basho because he is the highest maegashira to get a kachi-koshi. While this is often true, such a rikishi can easily be overtaken from other below him with more wins. In this example I think Hakuba with 10-5 will be ahead of Tochinoshin, and Asasekiryu at 9-6 is quite close to him and if Tochinoshin is unlucky he might end up at M1e (or M1w behind Tochiozan if he is really unlucky).

I was just guessing. Isn't it unusual rikishi from the same heya to fight each other. Is there a rule, or it is what the heya-oyakata decides?

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I was just guessing. Isn't it unusual rikishi from the same heya to fight each other. Is there a rule, or it is what the heya-oyakata decides?

Rikishi from the same heya never fight each other in honbasho bouts. It's a rule.

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I was just guessing. Isn't it unusual rikishi from the same heya to fight each other. Is there a rule, or it is what the heya-oyakata decides?

Rikishi from the same heya never fight each other in honbasho bouts. It's a rule.

I thought the same. As I know the only time when rikishi from one heya can fight each other, is if they have to determine a Yusho winner. Am I right?

In this case how a decissive bout on day 15, which could decide a Kumusubi ranking the next basho, was allowed? It doesn't make sense to me.

Edited by Achiyama

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Why not look at the actual torikumi faced by each rikishi? Sometimes same-heya considerations and mid-basho kyujo will turn a rikishi into joi-jin fodder, in more complicated patterns than simply counting ranks will reveal. People sometimes overestimate the effect it has on the banzuke makers (and end up assuming that e.g. M2w 8-7 is going to be treated better than M5e 10-5), but as a tie-breaker in close decisions I figure it does have an effect.

Should be Tochinoshin.

Agreed. What I proposed above makes more sense as rough guidance than as rigid rules.

Edited by HenryK

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I was just guessing. Isn't it unusual rikishi from the same heya to fight each other. Is there a rule, or it is what the heya-oyakata decides?

Rikishi from the same heya never fight each other in honbasho bouts. It's a rule.

I thought the same. As I know the only time when rikishi from one heya can fight each other, is if they have to determine a Yusho winner. Am I right?

Correct. By the way, those yusho deciders aren't part of the honbasho which makes my above rule still correct. And they don't count for the career win-loss records either.

In this case how a decissive bout on day 15, which could decide a Kumusubi ranking the next basho, was allowed? It doesn't make sense to me.

Now I see where the confusion is coming from... Tochinoshin didn't fight Tochiozan of course, his day 15 opponent was Kitataiki.

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I was just guessing. Isn't it unusual rikishi from the same heya to fight each other. Is there a rule, or it is what the heya-oyakata decides?

Rikishi from the same heya never fight each other in honbasho bouts. It's a rule.

I thought the same. As I know the only time when rikishi from one heya can fight each other, is if they have to determine a Yusho winner. Am I right?

Correct. By the way, those yusho deciders aren't part of the honbasho which makes my above rule still correct. And they don't count for the career win-loss records either.

In this case how a decissive bout on day 15, which could decide a Kumusubi ranking the next basho, was allowed? It doesn't make sense to me.

Now I see where the confusion is coming from... Tochinoshin didn't fight Tochiozan of course, his day 15 opponent was Kitataiki.

You are absolutely right. I don't know how such a bout between Tochiozan and Tochinoshin came into my head. Sorry.

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