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Kintamayama

Iwakiyama kyujo-cerebral infarction

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Iwakiyama has suffered a cerebral infarction, it was learned today. He will be out of Natsu, and a big question mark looms over his active career. He is not retiring and is being treated, but no surgery or hospitalization is needed. He was diagnosed in the middle of April and went for check-ups at an Osaka hospital today where he was told by a doctor to refrain from mounting the dohyo for now. "I'd like to mount the dohyo one more time..As long as my body still moves, I'd like to do sumo," he said. He will continue with some light training for now. "A brain illness is scary, but as long as there is a chance, he will stay on the road of being active,", said Sakaigawa Oyakata. "This may ultimately result in intai but I'll go kyujo and see how this pans out. I was crushed at some point, but I'm somewhat more positive now..", summed Iwakiyama.

Edited by Kintamayama

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How awful! Has anyone said anything about how they found it, and what the symptoms are? Had he had any difficulty moving?

And is there any word on prognosis?

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How awful! Has anyone said anything about how they found it, and what the symptoms are? Had he had any difficulty moving?

And is there any word on prognosis?

No answers to any of those questions, but it is being said that it was similar to what happened to Ozeki Tochiazuma, which ultimately led to his retirement.

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How awful! Has anyone said anything about how they found it, and what the symptoms are? Had he had any difficulty moving?

And is there any word on prognosis?

No answers to any of those questions, but it is being said that it was similar to what happened to Ozeki Tochiazuma, which ultimately led to his retirement.

Its a shame Kaikitsune Makoto isn't here to fill us in on exactly what the consequences of a cerebral infarction are...

Edited by kotoeikoku

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I know it's probably not the foremost thing on his mind right now, but will he stay in makuuchi with a 0-0-15 from M5E?

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I know it's probably not the foremost thing on his mind right now, but will he stay in makuuchi with a 0-0-15 from M5E?

There has only been one instance of a M5e rikishi getting zero wins since the abolition of the kosho rule. Hokutoriki ended up at J1e the next basho, but I think we'll have to wait until the basho plays out to see what lower Makuuchi/upper Juryo look like. Just guessing I'd say it's 50/50. Maybe they'll cut him some slack considering the reason (but I doubt it.)

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I know it's probably not the foremost thing on his mind right now, but will he stay in makuuchi with a 0-0-15 from M5E?

There has only been one instance of a M5e rikishi getting zero wins since the abolition of the kosho rule. Hokutoriki ended up at J1e the next basho, but I think we'll have to wait until the basho plays out to see what lower Makuuchi/upper Juryo look like. Just guessing I'd say it's 50/50. Maybe they'll cut him some slack considering the reason (but I doubt it.)

It's not a perfect comparison since Iwakiyama is somewhat higher than Hokutoriki despite the same M5 rank. Kyushu 1996 had four komusubi and the maegashira ranks extended only to M15w compared with M16w this basho.

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It's not a perfect comparison since Iwakiyama is somewhat higher than Hokutoriki despite the same M5 rank. Kyushu 1996 had four komusubi and the maegashira ranks extended only to M15w compared with M16w this basho.

But that's the only thing in Iwakiyama's favour, so sadly I'd put the actual odds of his staying in makuuchi at 5/95, not 50/50. After all, Hokutoriki got demoted despite pretty much the best chance to stay ever - only four promotions from juryo, one of which was already covered by an intai, and seven (!) other demotable rikishi besides 'riki. And it was a "fighting" zero-win record, which tend to get treated a bit more leniently than Iwakiyama's upcoming 0-0-15. Still wasn't enough.

Edit: Speaking of that basho - Kyokushuzan's record should be 0-2-intai, not 0-2-13.

Edited by Asashosakari

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He should retire immediately, if that isn't enough hint from his body to pack it in, then definitely has taken one too many tachiai head butts. He is a mug for continuing.

Dementia pugilistica* - affects boxers, I wonder how much it affects the Rikishi like Iwakiyama and Toyohibiki who love to clash heads?

*The condition is caused by repeated concussive and sub-concussive blows (blows that are below the threshold of force necessary to cause concussion), or both.

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Hope his wife is begging for him to quit. Sometimes it needs loved ones to convince one what is best for him.

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Wouldn't it be, you know, good to wait for what the doctors are ultimately saying? IIRC in Tochiazuma's case he was told that he had already carried around the "markers" (for lack of a better word) for a while and they had just hadn't been diagnosed until the stroke hit, but AFAIK that's not true for every cerebral infarction; some are just freak occurences that hit out of nowhere.

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Sumo itself is a risk and each bout means possible damage. I talked to not a few Rikishi-moms and dads who are- naturally- very worried all the time.

He already had one, so.........make it worse? In his age, after a successful (ok, not that long) Sumo-life? The doc will say "quit now".

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I know it's probably not the foremost thing on his mind right now, but will he stay in makuuchi with a 0-0-15 from M5E?

There has only been one instance of a M5e rikishi getting zero wins since the abolition of the kosho rule. Hokutoriki ended up at J1e the next basho, but I think we'll have to wait until the basho plays out to see what lower Makuuchi/upper Juryo look like. Just guessing I'd say it's 50/50. Maybe they'll cut him some slack considering the reason (but I doubt it.)

Looking at the instances in the 1950s and 1960s, when rikishi scored 0 wins and dropped (i.e. they weren't in a kosho basho) it may give him more hope, as all four remained in Makunouchi at either M15 or M14.....

But I would suspect it will be down to banzuke luck. He certainly could remain in Makunouchi if need be, but if there are too many good prospects from Juryo, he will drop.

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It's not a perfect comparison since Iwakiyama is somewhat higher than Hokutoriki despite the same M5 rank. Kyushu 1996 had four komusubi and the maegashira ranks extended only to M15w compared with M16w this basho.

But that's the only thing in Iwakiyama's favour, so sadly I'd put the actual odds of his staying in makuuchi at 5/95, not 50/50. After all, Hokutoriki got demoted despite pretty much the best chance to stay ever - only four promotions from juryo, one of which was already covered by an intai, and seven (!) other demotable rikishi besides 'riki. And it was a "fighting" zero-win record, which tend to get treated a bit more leniently than Iwakiyama's upcoming 0-0-15. Still wasn't enough.

Edit: Speaking of that basho - Kyokushuzan's record should be 0-2-intai, not 0-2-13.

I think I disagree, as the subsequent basho (when Hokutoriki was demoted to Juryo) had 16 Maegashira. That extra rank was clearly counted, as Otsukasa went from M15E (when 15 was the lowest rank) to M16W, despite getting a 7-8 record, which would normally have seen him demoted to Juryo (if the Maegashira ranks had not been expanded.)

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I doubt the cerebral infarction was directly linked to sumo in any way, especially as it appears it was not cerebral hemorrage due to impact. There are no real limitations after a stroke (cerebral infarction). No limitations in sports etc. In that sense there isn't that much basis on why he should quit sumo. If he has no residual symptoms limiting his power, balance or such, why should he quit? Indirectly sumo life may have exposed him to risk factors such as high blood pressure (number one risk factor), high cholesterol, smoking or so. If he gets medication to control blood pressure and other risk factors are handled in appropriate medical means, he will have good secondary prophylaxis decreasing the probability of future strokes. Stroke victim does not have to live in any way differently than non-stroke human. One medication that is very often started after stroke is ASA+dipyridamole combination which decreases the probability of an ischemic stroke well but also increses bleeding risk to some degree. This risk isn't that significant though but could be used as the only (what I can think of..) reasoning why quitting sumo would be "important". Increase of blood pressure during sports is not as bad as elevated BP level in general as the physiological way BP rises during exercise is better and safer than in hypertensive disease.

Taking care of his health is now more important than ever but if he wants, he could also continue sumo while taking care of the possible risk factors he has accumulated. Naturally as the information about the type of his stroke is not released, it can also be more rare like carotic dissection originated or it could have been hemorragic stroke etc. Still in most case scenarios I wouldn't automatically say it is bad for him to continue sumo.

Try to avoid strokes.

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I think I disagree, as the subsequent basho (when Hokutoriki was demoted to Juryo) had 16 Maegashira. That extra rank was clearly counted, as Otsukasa went from M15E (when 15 was the lowest rank) to M16W, despite getting a 7-8 record, which would normally have seen him demoted to Juryo (if the Maegashira ranks had not been expanded.)

I don't understand what you're saying, to be honest. If you're disagreeing with the claim that there were in total 8 demotable rikishi (plus Shuzan's intai) against just 4 promotions, fine, let's count only those who were demotable according to the expanded ranks of the next banzuke - that still leaves 6 rikishi in nominal demotion territory, and Hokutoriki didn't get to grab one of the 3 safe spots. Anyway, no, Otsukasa likely wouldn't have been demoted even if M15w had remained the bottom rank, it would still have been somebody else. (Example off the top of my head: Iwakiyama vs. Kasuganishiki after Aki 2007.) This ain't Bench Sumo with mandatory one-rank demotions for a 7-8. (Sign of disapproval...)

Edit: And many thanks for the sanity check, Kaikitsune.

Edited by Asashosakari

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... While I'm certainly not a doctor, nor do I have any knowledge about this condition ...

That's why I'm more inclined to listen to the certified doctor you're quoting above.

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Tachi ai brain-shake has no effect (in the long run)? (Sign of disapproval...)

What about a scar inside the brain, caused by such things? Couldn't that result into a blockage as well as thrombosis and whatsoever am not a medicine woman so no idea...?

I know we are not talking about Epilepsy here, but I am kinda astonished to read the doctor's opinion.

He is one of the few Sekitori who answered my questionaire and I would miss that friendly guy very much, but if he was my relative...........I'd lock him in rather let him mount the dohyo again....

Edited by ilovesumo

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Tachi ai brain-shake has no effect (in the long run)? (Sign of disapproval...)

What about a scar inside the brain, caused by such things? Couldn't that result into a blockage as well as thrombosis and whatsoever am not a medicine woman so no idea...?

I know we are not talking about Epilepsy here, but I am kinda astonished to read the doctor's opinion.

Again, perhaps we can all dial back the overreaction meter a bit and wait for what Iwaki's doctors recommend. Nobody's saying that those potential causes are impossible, just that they're not the only ones. Strokes are scary for sure, but this could ultimately end up as less of a problem than the mysterious illnesses that managed to derail the careers of Tochiozan, Homasho, Aran, Tamaasuka etc. etc. and whose existence (let alone effects) no fan even bothered to speculate about until they were acknowledged publicly months or even years later. Just because we know about it this time doesn't mean it's objectively a worse health issue.

Edited by Asashosakari

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I think I disagree, as the subsequent basho (when Hokutoriki was demoted to Juryo) had 16 Maegashira. That extra rank was clearly counted, as Otsukasa went from M15E (when 15 was the lowest rank) to M16W, despite getting a 7-8 record, which would normally have seen him demoted to Juryo (if the Maegashira ranks had not been expanded.)

I don't understand what you're saying, to be honest. If you're disagreeing with the claim that there were in total 8 demotable rikishi (plus Shuzan's intai) against just 4 promotions, fine, let's count only those who were demotable according to the expanded ranks of the next banzuke - that still leaves 6 rikishi in nominal demotion territory, and Hokutoriki didn't get to grab one of the 3 safe spots. Anyway, no, Otsukasa likely wouldn't have been demoted even if M15w had remained the bottom rank, it would still have been somebody else. (Example off the top of my head: Iwakiyama vs. Kasuganishiki after Aki 2007.) This ain't Bench Sumo with mandatory one-rank demotions for a 7-8. (In jonokuchi...)

.

What I am saying is that I don't think the banzuke makers view a M5 as being a 'higher rank' for banzuke making purposes, if there are fewer rikishi in sanyaku than on another occasion, it will still get the same demotion. The subsequent banzuke is the one that counts for the 'spaces'. So if it goes down to M16 (as in the case for Hokutoriki, and likely will be the case for Iwakiyama), it is the same scenario.

I think you would agree that a rikishi getting a 7-8 at the lowest rank would generally get a demotion to Juryo. As I said in my earlier post, it depends on likely Juryo promotion candidates.

You made a very good point with your example, which shows that a 7-8 rikishi is treated more favourably in such cases - I wonder who would get the nod between Iwakiyama with a 0-0-15, and M16E Koryu with a 7-8 if there is only one more rikishi deserving of promotion from Juryo. I suppose (now) that it would be Koryu, which would have been different to my opinion if you asked me yesterday. Thank you for the guidance (Sign of disapproval...)

P.S. I see that Jejima moved from J3E --> J3W on the latest Bench Sumo banzuke (despite getting a 7-8 in March) ;-)

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What I am saying is that I don't think the banzuke makers view a M5 as being a 'higher rank' for banzuke making purposes, if there are fewer rikishi in sanyaku than on another occasion, it will still get the same demotion. The subsequent banzuke is the one that counts for the 'spaces'. So if it goes down to M16 (as in the case for Hokutoriki, and likely will be the case for Iwakiyama), it is the same scenario.

Alright, I do agree with that. I didn't realize you were only disagreeing with my agreement with Doitsuyama, not the other stuff I wrote. :-)

You made a very good point with your example, which shows that a 7-8 rikishi is treated more favourably in such cases

Except when you're named Kaiho, as we recently found out. ;-)

P.S. I see that Jejima moved from J3E --> J3W on the latest Bench Sumo banzuke (despite getting a 7-8 in March) (Sign of disapproval...)

They know who's signing their checks. (In jonokuchi...)

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It is unusual at that age to get a stroke so probably he undergoes quite thorough examinations concerning rare causes. Still, "quit now!" comments require some logical reasoning. "It is a sign that brain can't take it" is not medically sound reasoning. The scar itself is likely small and is not healthy tissue anymore. It is more a possible epilepsy cause than cause of future stroke. I asked 2 neurologists what they think of this case and without knowing further details both said there is basically no reason why to limit any sports. Naturally it is highly unusual case that a stroke victim engages in cracking nuts at the tachi-ai but in overall having suffered a stroke shouldn't cause any "no no"s to one's life.

He may well get a recommendation to quit as he is veteran anyway but emotional "he is stupid if he continues!" and "he should quit NOW before next stroke comes!!"-comments are a bit of an irritant to me so that is why I am writing again on sumoforum and stuff like this which is off-topic and uninspiring.

Concussions and such are different matter altogether. The stroke must be rather large to cause brain tissue atrophy in such degree that risk of hemorrage due to diminished brain tissue (and therefore increased movement of brain tissue in hard impacts) is elevated in significant degree.

Edited by Kaikitsune Makoto

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Also, head to head collisions at the tachi-ai tend to be in the front, where the skull is the thickest and the head is most suited for impact.

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Also, head to head collisions at the tachi-ai tend to be in the front, where the skull is the thickest and the head is most suited for impact.

And, although most likely not germane to the infarction problem, Iwakiyama probably sheds more blood from eyebrow and forehead cuts than any other sekitori. Unlike some maegashira rikishi, his head problems are physical, not mental. B-)

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