Sign in to follow this  
Kaikitsune Makoto

Itai's book translations

Recommended Posts

If Itai is not telling the truth then all of his claims are highly slanderous.Even in Japan, people who are so badly slandered take legel action.

Particularly people in such revered and empowered positions as these men.

There is only one really viable reason not to(I suppose I could come up with a few in a crunch).

Itai tells the truth or mighty close to it.

It isnt something that japanese fans question.Just like henka it is part and parcel of Sumo.It's frequency and extent of use may change depending on the type of men in Sumo at that time but thats it.

The fact that a vocabulary that relates to these type of happenings is so intrenched within the sport and culture suggest that it exists at least.

Its another complexitity within a simple and sometimes noble sport that has a long and rich history.

I wouldn't change it even if I could.

jmo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If Itai is not telling the truth then all of his claims are highly slanderous.Even in Japan, people who are so badly slandered take legel action.

Not necessarily. Actually, even if there were no yaocho whatsoever, they would be very frightened to actually bring it into court, since there is no chance the whole Kyokai could be completely certain there was no yaocho. They would be completely terrified for a scandal worse than the tour de france doping scandal. The powers that be in sumo cares about status quo more than about the truth since the truth might hurt them more than they think they can take.

I wouldn't change it even if I could.

If I could change anything about yaocho, I would do it at more or less any cost.

I can't though.

Edited by Yubiquitoyama

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me much of the beauty of sumo is that for me it come close to being the essence of competition between two men.The combatants bring no tools apart from a modest covering, no friends.On the dohyo its just a single mans determination to succeed through his attributes and preparation.

The desire to know who are the better men,even the best man is constant and relentless.A man in such a position has much he can do trying to improve his standing.The fact a man would over step the mark and cheat speaks volumes.It indicates to me the type of man he is at his core or close to it.

Via this type of struggle to prospor a man can be seen for what he is,good and bad.

Personally I believe sumo is about the men that climb onto the dohyo and not about the fans.I think if not a single fan turned up and the NSK stopped being,Japanese would still climb the dohyo to determine the type of men they are.

Sumo is a personal journey of one man trying to succeed over another and we are privvy to watch just how he goes about it.

Others get more or less or just something totally different to me out of watching sumo so an infinintly level playing field maybe the ideal but for me I wouldn't change it one bit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
For me much of the beauty of sumo is that for me it come close to being the essence of competition between two men.The combatants bring no tools apart from a modest covering, no friends.On the dohyo its just a single mans determination to succeed through his attributes and preparation.

The desire to know who are the better men,even the best man is constant and relentless.A man in such a position has much he can do trying to improve his standing.The fact a man would over step the mark and cheat speaks volumes.It indicates to me the type of man he is at his core or close to it.

Via this type of struggle to prospor a man can be seen for what he is,good and bad.

Personally I believe sumo is about the men that climb onto the dohyo and not about the fans.I think if not a single fan turned up and the NSK stopped being,Japanese  would still  climb the dohyo to determine the type of men they are.

Sumo is a personal journey of one man trying to succeed over another and we are privvy to watch just how he goes about it.

Others get more or less or just something totally different to me out of watching sumo so an infinintly level playing field maybe the ideal but for me I wouldn't change it one bit.

Oh, I pretty much agree with this. I just think it all goes down the drain if the matches are fixed. The only test then is what man has got the most money in the bank to buy the best career. For me, any game or contest becomes moot if there is cheating involved, not only for the spectators but for the participants as well.

But that's me. :-D

Edited by Yubiquitoyama

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are right ofcourse,yubi.It is a dire curruption but it does require more than just money I imagine.It takes cunning to use such things as yaocho and strength of will to continually participate happily.It would get to most men very rapidly I guess and a decline in ones spirit would be disasterous in a sport like sumo.

The men who inforce the curruption must have particular skills and be in the position to do so.Most people are very careful about taking money from people and think long and hard about doing so.So to bring somebody into the loop requires,in most cases, more than money.

Not all men can be currupted so you will need to be able to overcome them in another manner while avoiding injury and so forth and keeping things under wraps while dealing with all thing sumo just like a normal rikishi would.

These are just some of the things that I can think of quickly,now.

So to me sumo is much more complex due to yaocho.Not only that but it will always remain while men are still failable.So personally I incorporate it and enjoy it for what it is.

To me its a sport about men who are striving with all that they can muster to succeed.For some men no price is to high and they will not go with out turning every stone.

Isn't this a reflection of life its self?

No,Sumo is a beautiful sport just the way it is.Of this I have never been more convinced.

Nice chatting.Catch you later.

JMO

Edited by Ryunokaze

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To me accepting yaocho is simply something too much against my principles. Some people may accept whatever as long as they are entertained and nothing that unhuman in that. Who considers gladiator audience in Rome evil and brutal human beings just because they liked watching death and other mens' fight for their life, often against very bad odds? There are probably tens of millions of "average" people who saw WTC crash and silently felt ALSO content (in addition to the shock) that there is some intense excitement in the world now and eagerly tune in and see what different parties will do, how are the headlines in the following days' newspapers, what will Bush say etc. Or people who watch car racing and get the biggest fix when someone crashes badly and await for news whether he is pulp, brain dead or a proof of one helluva endurance in the cockpit of those cars and aorta arc genkiness in the deceleration storm?

That intro was strange and off the track a bit but I understand my own logic at least hehe. Point is that as has been mentioned by Ryunokaze and others, sumo is different thing to different people. I want to see fair bouts. If the bouts are fair, I'll forgive whatever else Kyokai or sumo culture may or may not bear even if I would not accept some things at all in my mind. If bouts are fixed, the whole sumo loses its significance and disappoints me totally no matter how culturally valuable, how beautiful in side "shows", how nice structure of basho, how discrete rikishi might be, how perfect the other aspects of sumo would be, to me yaocho is the ultimate sin. Completely unforgivable. I dare to say I am very loyal to my friends and to people I care about. It would take really bad stuff by them for me to lose my friendship/feelings towards them. But if ozumo would be my friend in flesh and blood, spread yaocho would be something erasing him/her (is ozumo male?! maybe it is female) from my book almost totally.

If rikishi A does yaocho, it isn't "that" bad yet. If rikishi favours yaocho and implements that in his sumo as "part of it", then in my book the line is crossed. If sumo itself has yaocho (naturally there is), that is "ok" too to some degree but if ozumo itself has yaocho as "part of it", then screw ozumo. As a devoted fan I reserve a right to demand this kind of integrity in ozumo especially since the sole one on one bout is such a stripped display of rikishi versus rikishi in ancient sport that is still alive and well enough and the concept is the moment when the counterparts clash and wrestle for the kingdom of the dohyo. In that the whole entity of sumo is comprised. If that moment is an illusion, whole sumo is an illusion. That I won't accept. If others do, so be it. Ozumo doesn't need me but I stand strong in this view of mine. Childlish nai'ivity must be avoided and hence I can tolerate yaocho as a BAD phenomenon done occasionally but if yaocho comes closer to midway from being a disgrace for rikishi and very very bad bad bad bad event, then...

I am aware that in Japanese culture many people may think more like whatever Kyokai decides, is for the best or whatever is part of sumo is ok. "If yaocho is part of sumo, so be it"-thinking. Well it is their sport, their culture, their history but I can't think like that so wouldn't accept that as part of sumo even if the people who are most sumo-linked (ie. Japanese) would. To quote an Iranian male refugee who spoke to students in Finland "Everybody is always saying "it is your culture"..women get killed for nothing, outside world reprimands but still thinks "it is your culture!" and looks away". Not to evaluate the message in that quote but it fits perfectly well to situation if someone tries to justify yaocho in sumo by saying "It is part of sumo and in Japan, the cradle of sumo, people take it as a fact of life if that is so and accept it silently". My unacceptance means nothing to Kyokai but it means the world of sumo to me so I fervently disagree and would consider Kyokai approved yaocho as a long distance insult.

I don't consider show wrestling really bad at all. I am not a fan of it and lose interest soon but it is well made entertainment and the guys can really act and are really good athletes. But that is its whole purpose. Everybody (maybe not everybody...I watched Hulk Hogan and the companions when I was 7 or 8 and I always thought that why do these guys punch with such an odd technique and why do they stomp their foot when they punch!!..then I started to realize the punches are not real) knows that too.

Itai's world is horrible. It is a sumo nightmare.

Ozumo rules! Hopefully forever!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If irrefutable proof of widespread yaocho is presented to me, I'll burn my sumo books, delete all sumo related material from my computer, feel incredibly insulted, inform everyone walking at me in the street that sumo is bullshit and offer the ownership of this forum to the first person big enough fool to accept it.

That might be a good poll question. "What would you do if..."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If irrefutable proof of widespread yaocho is presented to me, I'll burn my sumo books, delete all sumo related material from my computer, feel incredibly insulted, inform everyone walking at me in the street that sumo is bullshit and offer the ownership of this forum to the first person big enough fool to accept it.

That might be a good poll question. "What would you do if..."

I'm a pragmatic and tend to act (sometimes to an annoying degree) quite reasonable compared to my initial reaction. I would begin pretty much as you and would be fuming unbelievably, but not burning anything as such things have a tendency to be impossible to have undone, and selling off the stuff would pretty much serve the same purpose. Looking at my usual reactions to such things though, it's quite likely I would at some point (same day or 10 years later I don't know) shrug my shoulders and think that now that this is out of the world, yaocho is probably not left in sumo to any degree, and more or less pick up where I left. :-D

Edited by Yubiquitoyama

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would heavily oppose yaocho if it became so wide spread that men did not have a choice in its use.

There is a certain type of fairness in play when it comes to yaocho as all concerned know it is happening and can choose.The fans can consider.

I do not think pro wrestling can even be compared to sumo. Wrestling is more a type of dance or something and involves no sport at all as EVERYTHING is scripted and practiced before hand.Barring an injury nothing can go wrong.Its a no brainer.

In conparision, a rikishi who is active in yaocho can most definintly improve his chances but he can never be certain.Even if the yaocho is on there is no telling that a man will not have a last second change of heart or an injury.

Yaocho in no way insures a rikishi will rise to the top.It is also possible that some rikishi are disadvantaged by resorting to yaocho.Some men will always be cannon fodder.Its that simple.

I do understand that if a person has the misconception of sport or sumo being played on a infinitly level field then it is a rude shock to learn other wise.However I do not believe it is sumo you have been decieved by.

Just a quick line about anybody who finds brutality exciting.Your sick and get help,PLEASE.

I enjoy combate to a certain degree but there is a THICK and CLEAR line that separates it from outright brutality.I mostly enjoy K1 but hate pride. Once a man is down of worse still out stone cold there is no sport in further persuing him.

I do not support sports that involve death of man or animal and that includes fishing unless to eat.Its not a sport if a participant doesn't know about it or is not willing.

K1 is not a beautiful sport in my mind mostly because people do get hurt and that is the aim.

The aim in sumo is to win not to injure and win.

Anyway getting off topic and okusan wa ikitai.Ja,iku.

Latter,maybe.

JMO

Edited by Ryunokaze

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just a quick line about anybody who finds brutality exciting.Your sick and get help,PLEASE.

I really enjoy Mortal Kombat games and I loved the Kill Bill movie. Should I seek help?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I do understand that if a person has the misconception of sport or sumo being played on a infinitly level field then it is a rude shock to learn other wise.However I do not believe it is sumo you have been decieved by.

Someone prove it. That's all I ask.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just a quick line about anybody who finds brutality exciting.Your sick and get help,PLEASE.

I really enjoy Mortal Kombat games and I loved the Kill Bill movie. Should I seek help?

Probably.

Seriously though.As long as you do understand that both of the things you mentioned are not real and that cars crashing and the wtc are real, then I reckon you pass my close to sane test.

But dont let me stop you from seeking professional help.

Edited by Ryunokaze

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
do understand that if a person has the misconception of sport or sumo being played on a infinitly level field then it is a rude shock to learn other wise.However I do not believe it is sumo you have been decieved by.

If person has very black and white approach and believes sumo to be pure from all yaocho but does anyone believe that? The point is exactly in the fact that yaocho should remain in the minority and also as an act that is frowned upon and not something "ok".

If yaocho is accepted as part of ozumo, then the affect is demoralizing and disappointment vast. Surely even wide spread yaocho wouldn't wipe away the intrinsic fascination over sumo techniques, system or traditions and in that sense it would be impossible to erase sumo from one's mind but it would destroy the core of it and adapting to that would be out of my interest. As a fan I would be deceived by sumo world, not anything else. Not by any nai'ivity, lack of understanding towards culture, lack of reality check or abundance of sincere idealism. These are personal preferences and many others would have as high respect toward sumo even with these particular faults. If that would make me a "silly fan who doesn't know how things work", so what? I don't need to "understand" something I despise.

Yaocho and doping make an interesting comparison. War against doping has been lost long time ago and doping itself is pretty much a necessity in world class strength sports whereas yaocho is something one can definitely do without. That is a good thing. Like Ryuno mentioned, yaocho free rise to top is no problem but yaocho carried raise to top is impossible without talent and ability to compete at that level. Hence yaocho itself is something that can be fought as it isn't a necessity. Some say doping isn't necessity either but I am sure nobody can dispute the fact that doping is VERY effective tool in many sports and hence as long as people want to get to top, it is impossible to win the war against it anytime soon at least (in professional team sports much much less) Antidoping, drug testing etc. is a good weapon in general but not at all a decisive weapon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i started watching sumo 5 years ago and at one point i heard all those rumours about yaocho.I have to admit that i felt a bit betrayed because i always thought of Japan and sumo a place of integrity and honour.

I stopped watching for a few months (with less enthusiasm more accurately) but i realised that if i did that with every sport i should stop watching everything....... :-P

Sumo, like all combat sports, can be a field for rigged matches because it is easy to do so.

i believe that a lot of the events in Itai's book are real but i cannot trust him of telling pure truth as he was part of this rotten system.

the rumours don't prove a thing but it is gullibility to say "everything is perfect".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(...) it is impossible to win the war against it anytime soon at least (in professional team sports much much less)

Doping can be eradicated. It's merely a matter of will. Or more precisely sore lack ... :-P No one calling the real shots doesn't even seem to be trying. They know no one wants to see athletes achieve mediocre results (in, say, track & field).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kaisan.I am not implying that there is a lack of understanding on anybodys part or that anybody is silly.Far from it,here.By the posts here it seems as if people do understand well.I post here because I believe people here DO have an understanding of sumo.Perhaps different to mine but thats all.Plus 90% of the time I enjoy the chat(Its in English too.Well,sort-of when I post).

I do think it's human nature and not sumo that is to blame for such corruptions.As was stated by Kotosan, where there is a will there is a way.Humans rearly stop thinking and given enough time will work out a way to overcome just about anything.

One point that you make Kaisan that I will take up vigourously is that you dont need to understand something you despise .Firstly,how do you know you despise something you do NOT understand.Is it some type of primal, instinctive emotion you are acting on?Perhapes you mean you dont want to get involved with it?Just not sure about this one as it seems out of place in one of your posts.

I do seek to understand and be understood.I do not post to slur people.I hope this is the way in which my post come across.

R

Edited by Ryunokaze

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One point that you make Kaisan that I will take up vigourously is that you dont need to understand something you despise .Firstly,how do you know you despise something you do NOT understand.Is it some type of primal, instinctive emotion you are acting on?Perhapes you mean you dont want to get involved with it?Just not sure about this one as it seems out of place in one of your posts.

Clumsy choice of words. I meant that I don't need to accept something I despise. "Understand" meant accept in that context. Sort of like I don't need to learn to accept something I despise which in this case would be wide spread accepted yaocho in ozumo no matter how well it would be explained or proved to be part of the culture not taking anything out of sumo.

Doping can be eradicated. It's merely a matter of will. Or more precisely sore lack ...  No one calling the real shots doesn't even seem to be trying. They know no one wants to see athletes achieve mediocre results (in, say, track & field).

Yes and that is one big reason it can't be eradicated IMO. It takes quite devoted idealism to change the attitude and in general accept that results in top sports would decline in the absence of performance enhancing drugs. It is a wicked circle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kotoseiya, just out of curiosity, what is your standard of proof? If Itai's word isn't good enough, who's would be? I'm not trying to make a point or anything. Just honestly curious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kotoseiya, just out of curiosity, what is your standard of proof?

No one's word as such is enough to convince me. Innocent until proven guilty.

There must be two or preferably more people sharing the basically same story although too identical stories by themselves are suspicious as well. The more a person has personally to lose by telling the truth, the more I'm inclined to believe him.

Itai had a vested interest. He was said (yes, that is doubtful as well) to be in financial difficulties when releasing his book and gained from all possible publicity he could get to his accusations. Therefore he had every reason to be as scandalous and exaggerating as possible. His accusations are not logical. Why would have Akebono needed to buy a bout against him? It just doesn't make sense. At least not according to his stories. I don't buy it.

Well, I would be able to speak far longer in Finnish. (Laughing...) Legal English is not my forte. Basically I mean I demand proof beyond reasonable doubt or how do you say it in common law?

ADDITION: Oh yes, I forgot. The tape...? Where is it? Play that to me, prove that the voices belong to then oyakatas and he's presented his proof. I bet he dropped that cassette between wall and radiator.

Edited by Kotoseiya Yuichi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kotoseiya, just out of curiosity, what is your standard of proof?

No one's word as such is enough to convince me. Innocent until proven guilty.

but the same goes for itai...innocent until proven guilty. he may be right or he may be a liar. but he is innocent until proven guilty....and that's where the difficulty is. it's not possible to proof beyond doubt that there isn't any yaosho, like it's mostly very hard to prove something that happens in a very small and homogen community. most sports are more or less manipulated or does anyone really believe that all the people doing the 100 m dash under 10 seconds are innocent of doping? maybe they just know when to stop taking whatever they take so it won't show in the results...sumo is big money, not only for the nsk but for gamblers too. and rikishi are human beings with feelings like hunger, thirst, sorrow, happiness and greed...i know the ideal is that they do the fighting for the honor and all this. but maybe between theory and reality there is as big a gap as between our way of living in europe and the christian ideals that should guide our living in theory...

wether itai is right or wrong, wether there is yaocho or there isn't, i still like sumo ... as i like to watch the 100 m dash during summer olympic games. the world isn't perfect and humans are the performers....still it's great sports

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Itai is the one making accusations. He and no one else in this case has the burden of proof, not those being accused. Where is his tape? Is it conveniently... er... I mean accidentally... disappeared?

It's practically impossible to prove something doesn't exist. I can drop a thousand reindeer from Empire State Building and not prove they can't fly. Perhaps it's a big enough secret for them to die for. But it's very easy to prove reindeer can fly. Just show one that can.

Unless Itai produces believable evidence to verify his claims, he's guilty of slander and he's proven that all by himself. He's not innocent in that respect.

I have no reason to believe that a clear majority of, say, Olympic medalists are not using doping. Most likely they are, at least in those sports where doping is beneficial. But when you know beforehand when the tests will be taken, only an idiot or a Finn will be caught. Even if you're caught, your national sports organisation can protect you for years. It sickens me.

Year after year shotputters from a certain nation produce excellent results during April and May. Few months later when the big competitions (Olympics, World Championships, Grand Prix series) are held mostly elsewhere, their results drop clearly.

Can't those guys synchronize their best form with the dates of the big competitions? Is the gravity stronger on other continents or do they simply know these other guys actually do something with the blood and urine samples? It's 100% bullshit. Anti-doping is but a scam to which few unfortunates are every now and then sacrificed to make it all look as if someone would really care about what people are injecting into themselves.

If I were a professional athlete in a sport where doping helps you, I'd get myself tested even at my own expense all the time and challenge my competitors to do the same. Actually I'd pay for their tests as well. >(Punk rocker...) If someone refused, we would know why.

There's no difference between European and Japanese ideals. Sumo is presented as a competitive sport, not preorchestrated show. Every rikishi knows he's expected to give his all in every bout. Everyone knows yaocho is frowned upon. Why else would it be so taboo?

Unless Itai can tell us believably where is his magical tape that would prove everything beyond doubt, I consider him a scandalous liar. Nothing more complicated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The post above shows ignorance of the Japanese legal system.

Innocence against claims is more often than not that which must be proven - NOT (supposed) guilt of those accused.

recommend a browse of Japan Times and other major newspapers over extended period.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The post above shows ignorance of the Japanese legal system.

Innocence against claims is more often than not that which must be proven - NOT (supposed) guilt of those accused.

recommend a browse of Japan Times and other major newspapers over extended period.

Umm, newspapers in almost all countries have a tendency to push the "guilty until proven innocent" line. Making inferences about the actual legal system of those countries because of that is a non-sequitur.

Edited by Asashosakari

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The post above shows ignorance of the Japanese legal system.

Innocence against claims is more often than not that which must be proven - NOT (supposed) guilt of those accused.

recommend a browse of Japan Times and other major newspapers over extended period.

Umm, newspapers in almost all countries have a tendency to push the "guilty until proven innocent" line. Making inferences about the actual legal system of those countries because of that is a non-sequitur.

The voice of experience I trust??

No - then why answer? - zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The voice of experience I trust??

Umm, yes?

Reading some German newspapers would tend to give one the impression that the German legal system includes a "guilty until proven innocent" provision. Clearly, this is not actually the case.

Reading some English newspapers would tend to give one the impression that the English legal system includes a "guilty until proven innocent" provision. Clearly, this is not actually the case, either.

Reading some American newspapers would tend to give one the impression that the American legal system includes a "guilty until proven innocent" provision. Clearly, this too is not actually the case.

I've read my share of all of the aforementioned (and know about those countries' legal systems) to make those claims.

Therefore, your argument that reading the Japan Times or "other major newspapers" (none of which you're writing for, no doubt) has the potential to give insights about the Japanese legal system is not exactly persuasive, unless you care to explain why the Japanese media landscape is entirely different from most other developed nations'. But since you're "on the inside" and stuff, I guess I'll take your word for it anyway! (I was stupid...)

Edited by Asashosakari

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this