Doitsuyama 1,173 Posted January 20, 2004 The yusho arasoi thinned out a bit now, as Kotomitsuki lost to Yokozuna Asashoryu and Shimotori lost to Buyuzan in direct bouts of contenders. Meanwhile Ozeki Tochiazuma lost for the second day in a row against a Maegashira rikishi, and Kakizoe lost to Aminishiki. Now Ozeki Chiyotaikai is the only rikishi left at one loss, behind undefeated Yokozuna Asashoryu. Tomorrow Asashoryu faces Kakizoe before taking on Tosanoumi and the three Ozeki. Chiyotaikai meets Tochinonada tomorrow, after that he'll get a last Maegashira opponent (Kotomitsuki or Kakizoe). Wakatoba and Kitazakura already are make-koshi now, and still need some wins to avoid Juryo demotion. Takanowaka at 3-7 also isn't looking good, of the other rikishi only Tamakasuga at 4-6 is in immediate danger. Kitazakura's brother Toyozakura is having a much better basho as the leading Juryo rikishi, even winning a bout at the belt against Kobo; at 6-4 he looks good for a promotion. Chiyotenzan is the first Juryo rikishi to get the kachi-koshi and leading alone now as Juzan lost quickly to Kaido. I must say Chiyotenzan's win against Roho was pretty lucky though. Kimarite was given as hikiotoshi, but I think isamiashi would have been a much better choice. -- Doitsuyama Makuuchi yusho arasoi Zensho One loss Two losses Three losses Four losses ------------- ------------- ------------- ------------- ------------- Asashoryu Chiyotaikai Kaio Tochiazuma Wakanosato Kotomitsuki Shimotori Dejima Kakizoe Miyabiyama Kokkai Buyuzan Aminishiki Tochisakae Asanowaka Hayateumi Day 10 Juryo J13e Hamanishiki (7-3) uwatedashinage J14e Sumanofuji (6-4) J12e Hakuho (7-3) yorikiri J12w Tochifudo (2-8) J10w Daimanazuru (4-6) oshidashi J11w Bushuyama (6-4) J9e Masutsuyoshi (3-7) yorikiri J13w Oginishiki (4-6) J8e Kaido (6-4) hatakikomi J14w Juzan (7-3) J11e Nakao (7-3) oshidashi J5e Takanotsuru (4-6) J4e Oikari (5-5) oshidashi J10e Gokenzan (3-7) J3e Harunoyama (6-4) yoritaoshi J4w Futeno (6-4) J3w Chiyotenzan (8-2) hikiotoshi J9w Roho (6-4) J6w Wakanoyama (7-3) uwatedashinage J2e Otsukasa (5-5) J5w Towanoyama (4-6) yoritaoshi J2w Kasugao (2-8) J1e Toyozakura (6-4) yoritaoshi J1w Kobo (6-4) Makuuchi M14e Ushiomaru (5-5) okuridashi M13w Takanowaka (3-7) M17e Hayateumi (6-4) uwatenage M12w Wakatoba (2-8) M11e Yotsukasa (3-7) oshidashi M15w Kaiho (5-5) M16e Asanowaka (7-3) hikiotoshi M11w Tochisakae (6-4) M10w Kokkai (6-4) oshidashi M15e Kitazakura (2-8) M9e Kotoryu (5-5) yorikiri M16w Tamakasuga (4-6) M14w Buyuzan (8-2) tsukiotoshi M7e Shimotori (7-3) M7w Miyabiyama (7-3) yoritaoshi M12e Asasekiryu (5-5) M6e Dejima (6-4) yorikiri M10e Takanonami (5-5) M8e Aminishiki (7-3) hatakikomi M5e Kakizoe (8-2) M9w Kinkaiyama (4-6) yorikiri M5w Kasuganishiki (3-7) M8w Jumonji (5-5) tsukiotoshi M4e Tokitsuumi (3-7) M6w Takekaze (2-8) uchigake M3e Takamisakari (3-7) M2e Iwakiyama (3-7) yorikiri M1e Toki (1-6-3) K1w Wakanosato (6-4) uwatenage S1e Tosanoumi (2-8) S1w Tamanoshima (4-6) oshidashi M1w Hokutoriki (3-7) M3w Kyokutenho (4-6) yoritaoshi O1e Tochiazuma (7-3) O2e Kaio (8-2) uwatenage K1e Tochinonada (3-7) O1w Chiyotaikai (9-1) tsukidashi M2w Kyokushuzan (4-6) Y1e Asashoryu (10-0) tsuriotoshi M4w Kotomitsuki (8-2) Day 11 Makushita Ms4e Nadatsukasa (0-5) Ms31e Terukaze (0-5) Ms3e Tokitenku (3-2) Ms4w Wakakosho (3-2) Ms2e Dewanofuji (3-2) Ms2w Ama (3-2) Ms3w Sumiya (1-4) Ms1w Senshuyama (1-4) Ms1e Raiko (2-3) Ms5e Shigezakura (2-3) Juryo J13e Hamanishiki (7-3) J13w Oginishiki (4-6) J14e Sumanofuji (6-4) J12w Tochifudo (2-8) J11w Bushuyama (6-4) J9w Roho (6-4) J9e Masutsuyoshi (3-7) J11e Nakao (7-3) J14w Juzan (7-3) J6w Wakanoyama (7-3) J10w Daimanazuru (4-6) J5w Towanoyama (4-6) J5e Takanotsuru (4-6) J12e Hakuho (7-3) J4e Oikari (5-5) J4w Futeno (6-4) J10e Gokenzan (3-7) J2w Kasugao (2-8) J2e Otsukasa (5-5) J3w Chiyotenzan (8-2) J3e Harunoyama (6-4) J1w Kobo (6-4) J1e Toyozakura (6-4) J8e Kaido (6-4) Makuuchi M15w Kaiho (5-5) M12w Wakatoba (2-8) M15e Kitazakura (2-8) M11w Tochisakae (6-4) M11e Yotsukasa (3-7) M13w Takanowaka (3-7) M10e Takanonami (5-5) M17e Hayateumi (6-4) M14e Ushiomaru (5-5) M9w Kinkaiyama (4-6) M9e Kotoryu (5-5) M16e Asanowaka (7-3) M16w Tamakasuga (4-6) M8w Jumonji (5-5) M8e Aminishiki (7-3) M14w Buyuzan (8-2) M7e Shimotori (7-3) M7w Miyabiyama (7-3) M6e Dejima (6-4) M12e Asasekiryu (5-5) M10w Kokkai (6-4) M5w Kasuganishiki (3-7) M4e Tokitsuumi (3-7) M2w Kyokushuzan (4-6) M3w Kyokutenho (4-6) M1w Hokutoriki (3-7) M1e Toki (1-6-3) M6w Takekaze (2-8) M2e Iwakiyama (3-7) K1w Wakanosato (6-4) S1e Tosanoumi (2-8) M3e Takamisakari (3-7) K1e Tochinonada (3-7) O1w Chiyotaikai (9-1) O1e Tochiazuma (7-3) M4w Kotomitsuki (8-2) O2e Kaio (8-2) S1w Tamanoshima (4-6) Y1e Asashoryu (10-0) M5e Kakizoe (8-2) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kaikitsune Makoto 203 Posted January 20, 2004 Some comments: Toyozakura has continued to be entertaining day after day. Today he indeed beat yotsu-expert Kobo with a nice yoritaoshi. M Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
QttP 0 Posted January 20, 2004 Asanowaka is the best of the best in his art. Maybe my personal dislike derives from empathy towards his foes who must hate fighting Asa. There can't be much more annoying ways to lose than to lose to a small, clownish trickster whose tricks are thoroughly known in ozumo but yet they are so difficult to defend against. One thing that can be more annoying is losing to a small but violent jerk, whose tricks are just as well-known, and yet people not only find them difficult to defend against, but even seem to be afraid of confronting that dude, who only needs a couple of fierce thrusts to the nose area to tone down. (I am not worthy...) M Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoavoshimaru 0 Posted January 20, 2004 Shoryu got his morozashi deeeeeeeeep. Nice defense by Koto during the first lift-off but SHoryu then digged in even more and made a show-off move to already lost Koto. Hmm, show-off. I'm not sure I agree with the term. But even if he did pick a showy kimarite, it was cool and I'd like to see more of the (I am not worthy...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 18,786 Posted January 20, 2004 Day 10 looks like a good time to look at what's going on with possible demotions from Juryo. So far, 3 guys are definitely or almost definitely going down. Wakatenro has been known as a demotee since his injury on day 3, and hopefully it's not as bad as it originally looked, or he can probably lay claim to being the first victim of the kosho abolishment as he'll be somewhere around Ms45 in Natsu if he needs to sit out Haru, and could thus probably say goodbye to sekitorihood for the rest of 2004 at the very least. Tochinohana is also kyujo since yesterday, and while the reason given didn't sound too bad, I doubt he'll come back except possibly for some modest damage control so he doesn't drop too far into Makushita...short of winning three bouts (out of a possible four), which looks unlikely given his performance up to day 8, he's a goner. Tochifudo is struggling after a promising 2-2 start. Now 2-8 at J12w, he'll likely need to win all five remaining bouts to remain in Juryo, which is a longshot, to put it mildly. It'll probably be a success for him if he can at least match the 5-10 from his shin-juryo basho four months ago, even if that doesn't save him from demotion. Several other guys are still in danger...Masutsuyoshi and Daimanazuru need two more wins to be on the safe side, which should be possible, but by no means guaranteed, considering they haven't exactly lit up the dohyo with their performances so far. Gokenzan needs three, which looks to be a tall order for him. He was visibly limping after his day 9 bout, and walked very gingerly prior to today's. And speaking of guys toughing it out, Oginishiki hasn't really been himself since the apparent arm injury he sustained (or aggravated?) against Kaido on day 7. Seeing as he also needs at least 3 (possibly even 4) wins to stay, we could be witnessing the end of another veteran's career here... (I am not worthy...) Finally...Bushuyama, Hamanishiki, Sumanofuji and Juzan all aren't 100% safe yet, but all of them have decent records and only need one or two more wins, so they're in much less danger than the aforementioned. All in all, I would guess there will be 5 demotions, although it could be as many as 7 if things don't go well for those who are in the danger zone. Curiously enough, the Makushita guys aren't exactly storming towards the chance for promotion this time around; so far, nobody between Ms1 and Ms6 has more than 3 wins, so basically anyone who isn't make-koshi already still has a shot there. So do Asofuji and Kotooshu who are both relatively low at Ms7e and Ms8e, but already 4-1 and who meet each other tomorrow. A 6-1 final record may well mean promotion if the number of open Juryo slots runs high. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 44,354 Posted January 20, 2004 All in all, I would guess there will be 5 demotions, although it could be as many as 7 if things don't go well for those who are in the danger zone. My guess-4 max. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gaijinohana 0 Posted January 21, 2004 One thing that can be more annoying is losing to a small but violent jerk, whose tricks are just as well-known, and yet people not only find them difficult to defend against, but even seem to be afraid of confronting that dude, who only needs a couple of fierce thrusts to the nose area to tone down. I am not a huge fan of Asa's attitude, but his sumo is great to watch. He shows a a good combination of power and technique and usually only loses when he himself makes a mistake or someone catches him a bit offguard. He doesn't use 'tricks' like a Shuzan, but known techniques that opposing rikishi can't defend against because they are forced into a position by Asa that doesn't allow them any alternative. That's good wrestling. And this tournament he has absolutely schooled everyone. Like a good Yokozuna should. Again though, I am not a huge fan of the way he finishes his matches with a pose quite often and I would like to see him show more respect for sumo in general. That being said: I would much much rather watch one of his bouts over the boring repetitive one-dimensional sumo of Chiyo. There is no more boring rikishi than Chiyo to watch. Watching Toki and Chiyo go at it is like watching a high school girl slapping fight. No way he deserves to be up there with Asa. Kaio maybe....Tochiazuma maybe...Chiyo-No. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
QttP 0 Posted January 21, 2004 (edited) I am not a huge fan of Asa's attitude, but his sumo is great to watch. No doubt there. He shows a a good combination of power and technique and usually only loses when he himself makes a mistake or someone catches him a bit offguard. So? It's not like he's the only one. Kaio only loses when he's injured or has a mental lapse and lets someone catch him a bit off-guard. There is no rikishi out there that can beat Kaio at his peak. Chiyotaikai loses much more due to own stupid mistakes than due to opponents' strength. The difference as it is now is that Asashoryu tends to have much less of those mistakes and mental lapses. He doesn't use 'tricks' like a Shuzan, but known techniques that opposing rikishi can't defend against because they are forced into a position by Asa that doesn't allow them any alternative. Edited January 21, 2004 by QttP Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gaijinohana 0 Posted January 21, 2004 Chiyo's Day 11 result speaks for itself. He is no doubt a powerful rikishi and I can understand the fun in watching him once in a great while, but my point was that his sumo is one-dimensional. That one-dimensional aspect of his wrestling is what makes him appear to be a choke artist. Almost always losing when it counts the most late in a tournament when the good rikishi come along that aren't intimidated by his 'slapping'; someone like "The Giant Killer" Tochinonada, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Naganoyama 5,841 Posted January 21, 2004 Kitazakura's brother Toyozakura is having a much better basho as the leading Juryo rikishi, even winning a bout at the belt against Kobo; at 6-4 he looks good for a promotion. Are these two destined always to pass each other, like ships in the night? Wouldn't it be nice if they could have a basho together in Makuuchi? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Naganoyama 5,841 Posted January 21, 2004 There is no more boring rikishi than Chiyo to watch. I am not a huge fan of Chiyotaikai but when he is on form, there is no better exponent of oshi sumo. His power is immense. At such times, I agree with QttP-zeki that he is exciting to watch. When he is off form, however, and his oshi is not working, he has no technique to fall back on. Then perhaps he is boring to watch. Perhaps this lack of technique for the bad days is what has stood in the way of Yokozuna promotion for Taikai up to now. His results are however far more reliable over the last couple of years than those of the other ozeki who are rather inclined to yo-yo up and down. He often seems to get 10-5 when off-form. How can you criticize that? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
QttP 0 Posted January 21, 2004 Chiyo's Day 11 result speaks for itself. He is no doubt a powerful rikishi and I can understand the fun in watching him once in a great while, but my point was that his sumo is one-dimensional. That one-dimensional aspect of his wrestling is what makes him appear to be a choke artist. Almost always losing when it counts the most late in a tournament when the good rikishi come along that aren't intimidated by his 'slapping'; someone like "The Giant Killer" Tochinonada, Yes, his sumo is one-dimensional, at least in the sense that he doesn't do belt sumo. At all. But I don't think that it's such a flaw that can prevent him from ever becoming yokozuna. And even if he never does, but continues showing the good, but not great, results he does so far, I'll always find him fun to watch. No rikishi gets criticized as much as Chiyotaikai does at times of losses. When he loses, suddenly everyone is all over him, saying "oh, he's one-dimensional, he has no technique, of course he'll lose, he's not good enough, he'll never be good enough". And I don't think that's right. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yubiquitoyama 4 Posted January 21, 2004 No way he deserves to be up there with Asa. Kaio maybe....Tochiazuma maybe...Chiyo-No. That's your opinion. So be it. If he makes the numbers he should be yokozuna. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kashunowaka 300 Posted January 21, 2004 No rikishi gets criticized as much as Chiyotaikai does at times of losses. When he loses, suddenly everyone is all over him, saying "oh, he's one-dimensional, he has no technique, of course he'll lose, he's not good enough, he'll never be good enough". And I don't think that's right. I don't think that's right either, but I don't think Chiyotaikai is more harshly judged than others. On the contrary; while Asashoryu and each one of the other 3 ozeki has their share of "anti-fans", I don't think I have ever seen anyone in this forum or on the mailing list who wish to see Chiyotaikai demoted to sekiwake, or retired. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yubiquitoyama 4 Posted January 21, 2004 No rikishi gets criticized as much as Chiyotaikai does at times of losses. When he loses, suddenly everyone is all over him, saying "oh, he's one-dimensional, he has no technique, of course he'll lose, he's not good enough, he'll never be good enough". And I don't think that's right. Well, he's not alone in that. Everyone who does not like a particular rikishi gets very loud when he loses and Chiyotaikai isn't worse than others, which I can guarantee you after more than a year of Tochiazuma-bashing abound. Some gets off more easily than others, but those who are "supposed" to win, like Ozeki and Yokozuna are always the worst ones off, since most following sumo have formed an opinion about them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kashunowaka 300 Posted January 21, 2004 No rikishi gets criticized as much as Chiyotaikai does at times of losses. When he loses, suddenly everyone is all over him, saying "oh, he's one-dimensional, he has no technique, of course he'll lose, he's not good enough, he'll never be good enough". And I don't think that's right. Well, he's not alone in that. Everyone who does not like a particular rikishi gets very loud when he loses and Chiyotaikai isn't worse than others, which I can guarantee you after more than a year of Tochiazuma-bashing abound. I hope you have your asbestos suit ready for the bashing which will follow after this basho ... ;-) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
QttP 0 Posted January 21, 2004 Perhaps you're right. Tochiazuma and Musoyama were somewhat bashed all this time because they haven't been showing any good results. None. And of course, some people were even too eager to see them demoted. (For the record, I was happy to see both of them maintain their ranks) Still, when Chiyotaikai was seeking promotion, the word "choker" came up before he even stepped on the dohyo for the first time. And usually it will only take one loss from him to bring that word and all the talk about his boring repetitive sumo up again. But maybe as a fan I see Taikai-bashing stronger than the rest. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 18,786 Posted January 21, 2004 Still, when Chiyotaikai was seeking promotion, the word "choker" came up before he even stepped on the dohyo for the first time. And usually it will only take one loss from him to bring that word and all the talk about his boring repetitive sumo up again. While I'm not sure that Taikai really gets criticized more than the other Ozeki, I do agree that criticism of him seems to flare up a lot quicker than for the others. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that he's the longest-running Ozeki of the bunch and also the most consistent, so people are especially frustrated that he's still not Yokozuna. Just a wild guess though. Or, considering that most of the criticism is usually the same old "choker", "one-dimensional sumo" etc. stuff repeated ad nauseam, and not much else, maybe they just don't like him for some reason. ;-) (Can't wait to see the same people decry Kokkai's or Roho's sumo as one-dimensional...no, I'm not holding my breath.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 44,354 Posted January 21, 2004 (edited) Since I am one of the pack of those who cry "choker" against Chiyo, I'd like to explain. I think the fact that he's a serial choker (like Azuma, like U) has absolutely nothing to do with his one, two, or three dimensional Sumo. If that were the case, he would never have gotten in the positon to "choke" in the first place, and would be a mini-Touki. I think it's a different problem, handling pressure, maybe... He wouldn't be the first , of course. When he's with it, he is really with it. When he loses it, he's just not there. To his credit though, he usually doesn't fall apart (as we are seeing right now with Azuma and last basho's Wakanosato..) and manages those 10s and 11s.. I think the "dimension" question is totally irrelevant-get the wins, and get them WHEN THEY COUNT, like Asashouryu, to name a few.. Edited January 21, 2004 by Kintamayama Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kashunowaka 300 Posted January 21, 2004 To his credit though, he usually doesn't fall apart (as we are seeing right now with Azuma and last basho's Wakanosato..) and manages those 10s and 11s.. And Kaio the basho before that. Speaking of chokers ... Right now, no one except Wakanosato can keep their sanyaku slot for more than one basho. Kyokutenho was considered a serious ozek candidate not long ago. Some believed that Takamisakari would establish himself in sanyaku. Iwakiyama is quite fiercely repelled by the sanyaku barrier. And so on ... Kakizoe and Kokkai is up next! I think the "dimension" question is totally irrelevant-get the wins, and get them WHEN THEY COUNT, like Asashouryu, to name a few.. To name a few? To name the only one over the last two years, I would say. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 18,786 Posted January 21, 2004 Speaking of chokers ... Right now, no one except Wakanosato can keep their sanyaku slot for more than one basho. Maybe time for a poll..."which rikishi not named Wakanosato will be the next one to go kachi-koshi in sanyaku?" ;-) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoavoshimaru 0 Posted January 21, 2004 Again though, I am not a huge fan of the way he finishes his matches with a pose quite often and I would like to see him show more respect for sumo in general. mychar-zeki, you and I must be watching a different basho. From what I've seen, Asashoryu's behavior during the basho has been exemplary. He has demonstrated good sportsmanship to such an extent that even the broadcasters acknowledged it. He's been bad in the past, sure, and no doubt is not an angel, but this basho he's been good, and I'd like to give him credit for that. Hopefully he continues this way. As for Chiyotaikai being boring: as others have said, it's your opinion and you're entitled to it ;-) I like watching him. He's saying "you know how I'm going to come at you, now let's see if you can stop me" -- and most rikishi can't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Xris 2 Posted January 21, 2004 Speaking of chokers ... Right now, no one except Wakanosato can keep their sanyaku slot for more than one basho. Maybe time for a poll..."which rikishi not named Wakanosato will be the next one to go kachi-koshi in sanyaku?" :-| Kotomitsuki ;-) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yubiquitoyama 4 Posted January 21, 2004 (edited) No rikishi gets criticized as much as Chiyotaikai does at times of losses. When he loses, suddenly everyone is all over him, saying "oh, he's one-dimensional, he has no technique, of course he'll lose, he's not good enough, he'll never be good enough". And I don't think that's right. Well, he's not alone in that. Everyone who does not like a particular rikishi gets very loud when he loses and Chiyotaikai isn't worse than others, which I can guarantee you after more than a year of Tochiazuma-bashing abound. I hope you have your asbestos suit ready for the bashing which will follow after this basho ... ;-) You know me. I am always calm and collected and never strike back, regardless of the attack :-| Edited January 21, 2004 by Yubiquitoyama Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 44,354 Posted January 21, 2004 I think the "dimension" question is totally irrelevant-get the wins, and get them WHEN THEY COUNT, like Asashouryu, to name a few.. To name a few? To name the only one over the last two years, I would say. Actually, I meant "to name a few WINS.." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
