Game Over- no more foreign rikishi loopholes

[Fay 1,677]

Maybe there is no point but I might as well put my opinions in bullet point as people seem incapable of understanding long sentences or reading more than one line without flying into a hypersensitive rage .

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aaaaaah finally I could understand you (Blowing up furiously...).

I'm with you in all bullet points, except the one which claims the proposal as illegal, but I'm no lawyer.

[Jakusotsu 5,995]

The original intent of one gaikokujin per heya had hardly to do with citizenship. It is to ensure so that every rikishi who comes into Ozumo should learn about the traditions and customs of sumo. The Kyokai's mandate is to diffuse and disseminate the customs and traditions of sumo. It is the responsibility of every Kyokai member to follow the mandate. It means every shisho should teach and coach his recruits the Ozumo culture. There is a limit on how extensively he can do so if there are too many rikishi in his heya who may have a language difficulty or without any knowledge of sumo and Japanese culture.

If that is the case, the new rule doesn't make sense. As others have pointed out here, when you've gained citizenship there shouldn't be any language difficulties or lack of Japanese culture anymore.

[yamaneko 2]

Im no expert in the matter, but what i assume would be illegal would be the fact that the foreign born japanese citizens would be given inferior rights to another japanese citizen if their status as a japanese was somehow deemed inferior.

I guess maybe hes saying theres a law in japan that says that if youre a citizen you are a citizen, and you are entitled to the rights of all the other citizens. In that case, it would be illegal to say that a foreign born japanese citizen somehow doesnt count as a japanese at a heya, while a japanese born citizen does.

[Kintamayama 45,345]

• The old rule made a distinction between Japanese and non Japanese. That's fine as the constitution only covers citizens when it comes to equality.
  
• To illustrate the above, you can put up a sign saying "No Irish allowed" on your business in Japan if you want. You wouldn't be breaking any law.
  
• The new rule makes a distinction between Japanese citizens from birth and those who aquired the citizenship later.
  
• Although the rule doesn't affect the citizens directly it effectively creates different classes of citizen which is not allowed under Japanese law
  
• If a potential recruit may not join Heya "A" as it has an ex-foreigner (even though it now contains only Japanese citizens) but the recruit is free to join Heya "B" as it has only Japanese born citizens then that makes a distinction between Japanese born citizens and those with acquired citizenship.
  

Ok. I assume women citizens and men citizens in Japan are equal as well, so wouldn't allowing only some of the citizens (AKA men) to participate in a sport be illegal as well? What I'm trying to say is, isn't each sport authority allowed to make its stipulations as it sees fit within the sport without it being challenged legally? Like the number of naturalized players allowed to play on a team in soccer/basketball? I'm not trying to be a smartass here-I really don't see how a rule within a sport concerning who is allowed to participate is not an internal thing and has nothing to do with the laws of the land. And how about a 26 year old Japanese citizen wanting to join sumo? Can't he sue on the basis of discrimination as well? Why is he being disqualified based on age alone? This rule makes a distinction between a Japanese born before 1995 and one born after.

Sorry, I still don't get why this change is different from any other entry rule.

[Zuikakuyama 1]

"外国出身力士枠" (foreing=born rikishis) sounds like it would also include Japanese children born to Japanese parents outside of Japan (ie., Japanese parents working or studying in US or EU has a child there). So would these guys be excluded?

[Kotoviki 16]

Since I can't find a way to quote two people in one message ...

Just click the button on each post you want to quote, then click the button at the top or bottom of the thread (instead of the regular reply button) to create a post with multiple quotes.

Thank you much!!! Have learned something new!!! (Blowing up furiously...)

[Kotoviki 16]

• The Kyokai have every right to restrict the number of foreigners if they want to
  
• I want the number of foreigners restricted in ozumo
  
• I don't believe the Kyokai are doing it for reasons of discrimination
  
• My reasons for wanting a reduced number of foreigners have nothing to do with racism and everything to do with maintaining the traditions of ozumo and passing them on to the next generation
  
• I believe that is also why the Kyokai are doing it.
  

Well said again John!

I agree here too, I want the foreigners restricted. I'm not saying it should only be one per heya, could be too, whatever but a restriction is a good thing for the same reason John says. It maintains the traditions of Ozumo. If every foreigner was allowed to come to Japan for sumo then they could take over the sport and it would no longer be what it is.

On the other hand after a foreign rikishi has proven he can obtain Japanese citizenship and lives as a Japanese then I believe they should be treated as an equal to other Japanese rikishi. This won't mean that every foreigner will run out to get citizenship. Truth is they can't. The gov't makes it hard to get and frankly many of them want to return to their own countries when they retire, just as many ex-pats here do (yours truly not included, this is my retirement home) so they will not change citizenship.

[Jonosuke 28]

The original intent of one gaikokujin per heya had hardly to do with citizenship. It is to ensure so that every rikishi who comes into Ozumo should learn about the traditions and customs of sumo. The Kyokai's mandate is to diffuse and disseminate the customs and traditions of sumo. It is the responsibility of every Kyokai member to follow the mandate. It means every shisho should teach and coach his recruits the Ozumo culture. There is a limit on how extensively he can do so if there are too many rikishi in his heya who may have a language difficulty or without any knowledge of sumo and Japanese culture.

If that is the case, the new rule doesn't make sense. As others have pointed out here, when you've gained citizenship there shouldn't be any language difficulties or lack of Japanese culture anymore.

In an ideal world you are right but that is not the case anywhere. As far as I know the only rikishi who acquired the citizenship with enough sufficient Japanese to what you suggest is Kyokutenho only.

[Jonosuke 28]

There is no point even saying anything else because you are obviously not even reading my posts. (Shaking head...)

Actually I was responding to a point that people were discriminating against because the constitution says it's OK. My view was that it had noting to do with it.

I also disagree with another point that the Kyokai is treating the rikishi who acquired the citizenship with less rights. First and foremost, non-sekitori rikishi are pretty much dependent on their heya and Kyokai for their upkeeps - their shelter, food, most accessories required for basho and transportation costs are paid for them. They do not earn enough to live independently. To acquire the citizenship they will need guarantors and sponsors and they are certainly people with Kyokai connection either the shisho, oyakata or supporter. Without them their application would not have gone through as they do not have an independent mean of supporting themselves.

I pointed out that the original intent of foreign born rikishi rule is not to discriminate against those with a different nationality but to mitigate impact on the heya of those with less understanding of sumo and Japanese culture as they have limited resources to provide for them. It will be illegal if those who acquired the citizenship have given less rights as other Japanese citizens at their heya or Kyokai. But that is not the case here. Now if they want to leave Ozumo, they can go live and work freely elsewhere as they no longer require a work permit. They have their Koseki Tohon and will get a passport if they apply for it. The Kyokai is not stopping them for any ofl these.

Just simply the Kyokai re-appraised the foreign born rule does not mean their rights were taken away or they are being considered less of Japanese. It is a recognition of the original intent of foreign born rikishi rule being not practiced equally so as a result Tatsunami Beya may not get two new foreign born rikishi immediately but because of this, are the rights of their rikishi violated? The Kyokai set up the foreign born rule originally so if they modify to close the loophole, there is nothing illegal about it.

However I think there is another issue that may come up in the future. How would someone born and raised in Japan who is of another nationality be treated? They do obviously speak and understand the culture as well as others but should they be under foreign born rule? If so, then they would not be following the spirit of their original intent.

[Kotoviki 16]

The original intent of one gaikokujin per heya had hardly to do with citizenship. It is to ensure so that every rikishi who comes into Ozumo should learn about the traditions and customs of sumo. The Kyokai's mandate is to diffuse and disseminate the customs and traditions of sumo. It is the responsibility of every Kyokai member to follow the mandate. It means every shisho should teach and coach his recruits the Ozumo culture. There is a limit on how extensively he can do so if there are too many rikishi in his heya who may have a language difficulty or without any knowledge of sumo and Japanese culture.

If that is the case, the new rule doesn't make sense. As others have pointed out here, when you've gained citizenship there shouldn't be any language difficulties or lack of Japanese culture anymore.

In an ideal world you are right but that is not the case anywhere. As far as I know the only rikishi who acquired the citizenship with enough sufficient Japanese to what you suggest is Kyokutenho only.

I would have to say that Kasugao would fall into the above category. He also intends to stay in Japan forever and loves this country as his own!

[Kintamayama 45,345]

Oh my dear-we seem to be a tiny speck of dust.. Look what the overwhelming majority of foreigners thinks..

http://www.debito.org/?p=6026

[ilovesumo 12]

The original intent of one gaikokujin per heya had hardly to do with citizenship. It is to ensure so that every rikishi who comes into Ozumo should learn about the traditions and customs of sumo. The Kyokai's mandate is to diffuse and disseminate the customs and traditions of sumo. It is the responsibility of every Kyokai member to follow the mandate. It means every shisho should teach and coach his recruits the Ozumo culture. There is a limit on how extensively he can do so if there are too many rikishi in his heya who may have a language difficulty or without any knowledge of sumo and Japanese culture.

If that is the case, the new rule doesn't make sense. As others have pointed out here, when you've gained citizenship there shouldn't be any language difficulties or lack of Japanese culture anymore.

In an ideal world you are right but that is not the case anywhere. As far as I know the only rikishi who acquired the citizenship with enough sufficient Japanese to what you suggest is Kyokutenho only.

And Kyokutenzan.

I do not get why the debito-"award" is called "Dejima" - cause of the Dutch people on Deshima during sakoku?

One more thing about the constitution...

let me give a German example.

the German Federal Constitutional Court decided, just a few weeks ago, that the law of "Harz 4" violated the constitution. Harz 4 is money, unemployed people get for themselves and their children to live on. The promplem was, that the amount for children was less then the amount the parents got - children were "less citizen" then the parents - but the constitution says, that all citizens are equal, so there cannot be a difference. "Children are not just small adults".

There are no new rules yet, so I cannot say what happens now.

Citizen is Citizen- that's why they are Citizens.

Phrase of the main points of the Japanese constitution :

The guarantee of fundamental civil rights to all Japanese and to all persons within Japanese jurisdiction. All Japanese shall enjoy equal rights before the law and no special privileges of particular social groups such as the nobility shall be allowed;

Full text of the summary can be found here Link

Full constitution Japanese/ English here Link

Edited February 25, 2010 by ilovesumo

[Asashosakari 19,501]

And how about a 26 year old Japanese citizen wanting to join sumo? Can't he sue on the basis of discrimination as well?

The short answer is he probably could.

I suspect the age limit is primarily being "enforced" by leaning on the stable owners to not accept anybody over the limit (after all, you have no right to "join sumo" - there are no job postings), and reading between the lines it seems that the new foreigner rule might be subject to the same thing...the articles had a bunch of language about how they're "affirming" the rule (rather than changing it), and a cryptic comment by Michinoku-oyakata about how there's a growing number of younger oyakata, apparently with the insinuation that those guys were more likely to exploit the loophole while the older oyakata were already on board with the spirit of the rule.

Of course, the two Chinese rikishi who naturalized recently* are with Kokonoe and Nishonoseki, both not exactly part of the young cadre. And they're on the board of directors, too... I'd be curious to know who among the 10 riji was in favour of this rule change and who wasn't, but we're unlikely to find out.

BTW, it was slightly surreal to see that the most drastic article on the whole thing (Sponichi's "no more Asashoryu") was also the only one - as far as I saw, anyway - that brought up the fact that this might well end up reflecting badly on the Kyokai because there are already so many prospective applicants waiting in both Europe and Mongolia.

* In the minimum 5-year time, too, unlike the Mongolians and Kasugao who've been there for quite a bit longer.

OT:

let me give a German example.

the German Federal Constitutional Court decided, just a few weeks ago, that the law of "Harz 4" violated the constitution. Harz 4 is money, unemployed people get for themselves and their children to live on. The promplem was, that the amount for children was less then the amount the parents got - children were "less citizen" then the parents - but the constitution says, that all citizens are equal, so there cannot be a difference. "Children are not just small adults".

Erm, no. The "not just small adults" comment was in reference to the fact that the amount children are eligible for was defined simply as 60% of the amount for adults, with no effort ever made to figure out if 60% is actually sufficient based on children's specific needs (particularly the needs specific to different ages). The judgement definitely didn't say that "there cannot be a difference" between adults and children as far as this law goes.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari 19,501]

(emphasis mine)

Just simply the Kyokai re-appraised the foreign born rule does not mean their rights were taken away or they are being considered less of Japanese. It is a recognition of the original intent of foreign born rikishi rule being not practiced equally so as a result Tatsunami Beya may not get two new foreign born rikishi immediately but because of this, are the rights of their rikishi violated?

Well, I guess I'm now seeing where your confusion about the "possibility of too many foreigners in need of guidance in one stable" is coming from... I honestly have no idea how you construed that Tatsunami-beya was eligible to accept two new foreign deshi after the Mokonami/Daionami naturalizations, but just to be clear: They are only eligible to accept one, both before and after the rule change.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Asashosakari

[ilovesumo 12]

OT:

let me give a German example.

the German Federal Constitutional Court decided, just a few weeks ago, that the law of "Harz 4" violated the constitution. Harz 4 is money, unemployed people get for themselves and their children to live on. The promplem was, that the amount for children was less then the amount the parents got - children were "less citizen" then the parents - but the constitution says, that all citizens are equal, so there cannot be a difference. "Children are not just small adults".

Erm, no. The "not just small adults" comment was in reference to the fact that the amount children are eligible for was defined simply as 60% of the amount for adults, with no effort ever made to figure out if 60% is actually sufficient based on children's specific needs (particularly the needs specific to different ages). The judgement definitely didn't say that "there cannot be a difference" between adults and children as far as this law goes.

Sorry, wasn'T clear enough.

yeah, kid's needs were just counted in less percentage then the amount of needs for the adults, while kids have specific needs (but get the 60% of money for tabacco and alcohol etc...of specific needs of adults). Specific needs had been set up for adults but not for kids - who were counted kinda as less of a citizen- 60% of a citizen, cause of the forgotten specific needs.

Anyway, off topic.

[Fay 1,677]

Sorry, wasn'T clear enough.

yeah, kid's needs were just counted in less percentage then the amount of needs for the adults, while kids have specific needs (but get the 60% of money for tabacco and alcohol etc...of specific needs of adults). Specific needs had been set up for adults but not for kids - who were counted kinda as less of a citizen- 60% of a citizen, cause of the forgotten specific needs.

Anyway, off topic.

... and you can't compare it anyway. Children have a disadvantage through the present law but the foreign and former foreign rikishi don't have any.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

(after all, you have no right to "join sumo" - there are no job postings)

That's an interesting point in that the Bosman ruling was enforced because soccer players are employees. Very hard to argue that rikishi have that status especially as many don't receive a salary. I wonder what their status is exactly in legal terms.

AFAIK, foreign rikishi are here on entertainer visas. You can read more about the requirements here:

http://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/Visa/appendix1.html

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

AFAIK, foreign rikishi are here on entertainer visas.

I was thinking more of the Japanese 幕下以下 rikishi.

I imagine that they are much like other apprentices in traditional Japanese arts - maiko or deshi in kabuki, for example. They are free to leave whenever they wish, and can also be expelled for any reason their sponsor chooses. Kind of an all-or-nothing proposition. Make it big, or be completely dependent on the largess of those who took you on. I doubt they have any legal rights to severance pay or any other recourse should they quit or be cut for any reason.

[Jonosuke 28]

Oh my dear-we seem to be a tiny speck of dust.. Look what the overwhelming majority of foreigners thinks..

http://www.debito.org/?p=6026

On the other hand this guy doesn't sound like he is upset at all about the fact the Kyokai actually limits the number of foreign rikishi they accept. Sometimes when something gets so entrenched, people no longer see it for what it is.

It's a rule that the Kyokai set back in 2002 and if they want to re-interpret it however they want to, they can do so, as after all it's their rule, you won't find the same one anywhere else in Japan.

Some are hollering about the re-interpretation but if I hear what they are saying they should be cursing the original idea as that is far more sinister and Orwellian.

Either the Kyokai abolishes the rule altogether or comes up with more equitable solution if they still want to allow foreign born rikishi. Their only other option is to not let any of them in.

My solution is to have the Kyokai set up a sumo school not only for non-Japanese speaking rikishi but all rikishi (not just that mickey mouse learner's clinic). It will be one year long and only those who successfully acquire the knowledge and skills necessary for Ozumo will get a certificate.

Then they will set up a draft. Based on a point system (a Jonokuchi rikishi gets one point, Jonidan two, Sandanme three!, Juryo 4 , Makuuchi 5, Komusubi 6 , Sekiwake 7, Ozeki 8 and Yokozuna 10 and the number of win a rikishi gets will be multiplied by his rank and totalled up with all other rikishi in the heya), the lowest total point heya will start picking the best graduating rikishi (in their mind) first until they exhaust all the graduating class or no heya expresses an interest in any remaining rikishi (so it's possible that some may never get picked for one reason or another as a heya can opt out not picking any rikishi or whatever number of rikishi they feel comfortable).

This will accomplish two things. The Kyokai can be assured of their rikishi having sufficient Ozumo knowledge and good language skills and any aspiring rikishi can join regardless of his background provided he successfully completes all the courses. No more stupid one foreigner per heya rule and the Kyokai will have well versed kids coming to their heya. In this way they can also do away with age rule or minimum height or weight requirements.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Jonosuke

[Jakusotsu 5,995]

Japanese citizenship required for all sekitori and the signing of a contract agreeing to stay at least 5 years with the kyokai after retirement for ozeki and yokozuna regardless of nationality.

You're not serious, are you? That wouldn't work on so many levels I don't even know where to start. Just one thing: did you really want Wakanoho to sit at Makushita 1 East for a couple of years?

[Fay 1,677]

Japanese citizenship required for all sekitori and the signing of a contract agreeing to stay at least 5 years with the kyokai after retirement for ozeki and yokozuna regardless of nationality.

Even if you don't agree that sumo is not a sport it's pretty obvious that it is more than a sport.

Giving foreign rikishi the choice of either becoming Japanese or leaving sumo might be a controversial idea but I think you can't judge rikishi like regular athletes. Sumo needs people who are deeply committed to it.

I want to see great rikishi stay with the kyokai after retirement and pass along their knowledge to the next generation.

Sorry but this is bulls ...... no need to force foreign rikishi to become japanese, hey even a violation of their human rights.

You don't need to be japanese to be deeply committed to Sumo.

[nomadwolf 8]

all foreigners in one heya? youre aware that wrestlers of one heya dont face each other except in a kettei-sen? foreigners would monopolize all the upper ranks...

OK, I'm a little behind, and don't have anything constructive to say.

BUT, with all foreigners in 1 heya, there would be very little interaction between the Yokozuna & Ozeki (at present).

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

I wouldn't say the NSK's decision is racist as much as it is xenophobic. With the very small number of new recruits, a declining birthrate, more scandals than you can shake a stick at, and a lot of other professional sports that seem more appealing to young people, I not convinced this move is in sumo's best interests...

[Fay 1,677]

Sorry but this is bulls ......

Oh great arguement.

no need to force foreign rikishi to become japanese

Obviously no one is forced to do anything. If you want to be an oyakata ya gotta be Japanese. No difference.

To be or to become japanese doesn't make any rikishi more committed to Sumo. It's not a matter of nationality.

And don't be naive, of course you force them to become japanese when rising up the banzuke is not sufficient to make it to sekitori.

[Orion 431]

Just simply the Kyokai re-appraised the foreign born rule does not mean their rights were taken away or they are being considered less of Japanese. It is a recognition of the original intent of foreign born rikishi rule being not practiced equally so as a result Tatsunami Beya may not get two new foreign born rikishi immediately but because of this, are the rights of their rikishi violated?

Returning to the fray: I just cannot believe how many words have been wasted on this non-issue. An existing rikishi who is already in sumo and doing all that is required of him as a rikishi, is a valid rikishi no matter what. If he happens to be foreign-born and completes his active sumo career and (a) has qualified to acquire a myoseki and (b) has succeeded in buying a myoseki, he can enter a new later career as an oyakata (just like Hawaiian-born Takamiyama became Azumazeki oyakata and had a great second career, bringing up the very first foreign-born yokozuna, Akebono.

If a foreign-born rikishi ends up below that level but (1) has changed citizenship and (2) can get an application form with the name-stamps of all the sekitori and oyakata in his ichimon, he may also get a post as either a wakaimonogashira or a sewanin. No matter where he was born, he is not in any way being discriminated against.

(And Pulease, people, let us stay right away from the self-apppointed Crusader of the Onsens. This man has his own path to follow and he will latch onto any thread that appears to feed fuel into his blog. [And, let's not forget, that, after he had made his first big "discrimination" point about taking his two daughters to an onsen in Hokkaido that had suffered considearable losses from the bad behavior of sailors off Russian ships), and the one who looked Japanese was allowed in but the one who looked 'foreign' was excluded -- after all this he divorced his long-suffering Japanese wife; the last time I heard, his still young daughters were very troubled by papa's disappearance.]

Things are not always as they appear, across the Pacific.

Let's stick to sumo.