Game Over- no more foreign rikishi loopholes

[Asashosakari 20,279]

Lest anybody think it's only us non-Japanese fans, here's a (Japanese-only) Mainichi Shimbun editorial which raises the same legal issues with the Kyokai's "gaikoku-shusshin" re-interpretation of citizenship that Nishinoshima brought up, and also puts the responsibility for the issues of Asashoryu, Wakanoho etc. squarely on "lack of guidance", not "being foreigners".

Edited March 2, 2010 by Asashosakari

[ryafuji 825]

Another article in English, much better than that Japan Times one.

I understand that sumo is considered to be a national sport, and it can

[Jakusotsu 6,401]

I think that view may be too optimistic: I don't think enough foreign rikishi do learn these things properly.

And it's primarily for the oyakata to take the blame. Perhaps the latest rule is really not that much against the foreigners but kind of admitting a lack of educational proficiency, like Jonosuke suggested.

[Kintamayama 47,323]

Either I'm a total idiot, or I'm a total idiot. This whole kerfuffle seems so unwarranted to me.

There was a one-foreigner per heya rule put in place in 2002. If there was a time for protest, it should have been then-that would have been understandable, not that I would have agreed with that either, but understandable. The current process was put in place targetting some OYAKATA, not the foreigners. Some Oyakata blatantly circumvented the original rule's objective, and tried to take a side road. The bosses noted it and blocked that side road. Possible constitutional illegality notwithstanding, this was in no way an attempt to cut down the number of foreigners allowed. That was done back in 2002. When they made the rule, nobody could envision that mediocre rikishi would go out and get naturalized just so that their oyakata who made a lousy first choice can add another foreigner.

And to remind us all-the late 90s saw a total ban of foreigners. A total ban. Not in the rules, but nonetheless, that is what it was. I don't remember any serious uproar then. That was only about 10 years ago. Only in January 1999, with the entrance of Kasugaou, were foreigners slowly allowed back in till it peaked with 15 new Mongolian rikishi between January-May 2001, which finally prompted the Kyokai to put a lid on it.

[Asashosakari 20,279]

And to remind us all-the late 90s saw a total ban of foreigners. A total ban. Not in the rules, but nonetheless, that is what it was. I don't remember any serious uproar then.

Well, except by the group of (somewhat myopic) people who believed - and sometimes still seem to believe - that the blanket ban was really just targetting Hawaiians...

That was only about 10 years ago. Only in January 1999, with the entrance of Kasugaou, were foreigners slowly allowed back in till it peaked with 15 new Mongolian rikishi between January-May 2001, which finally prompted the Kyokai to put a lid on it.

Not sure I'm following here...the 2002 rule change actually expanded the number of potential foreigner slots. It was two per stable with a global maximum of 40, followed by one per stable with no global maximum (and with existing multiples grandfathered in).

I'm not sure anybody's outraged or protesting anyway...at least I don't think I'm the only one who is mostly having a "what the hell's the point?" reaction. All the naturalization stuff does is move things along a little more quickly and orderly - I mean, chances are that somebody "mediocre" like Daionami will be out of Ozumo within a couple of years anyway (I'll assume here that Mokonami's naturalization is for "good" reasons, him being a sekitori), so this just allows his shisho to recruit a guy he really wants right now, instead of suddenly finding himself with an open foreigner slot and no prospective candidate scouted once Daionami calls it quits. Kokonoe is probably happy he's not the PR guy anymore and he didn't have to explain this rule adjustment to the press, what with his having just made use of the loophole last year...

And again, in case the alternative turns out to be that those mediocre guys will now be pushed into quitting instead of naturalizing by some oyakatas, what's been gained? All so the Kyokai can be happy that there are only 57 instead of 62 foreigners, even though the 5 guys who would have made up the difference were makushita and sandanme lifers anyway? At the price of bad press and potentially bad blood among ousted rikishi (okay, not that the Kyokai will care, I guess), that strikes me as a remarkably small gain. And in the end they've probably shot themselves in the foot anyway - I think it's much more likely now that they'll end up having to revise the one-per-stable limit in the near future than if they had simply kept the loophole in place.

[Kintamayama 47,323]

I'm not sure anybody's outraged or protesting anyway...at least I don't think I'm the only one who is mostly having a "what the hell's the point?" reaction. All the naturalization stuff does is move things along a little more quickly and orderly - I mean, chances are that somebody "mediocre" like Daionami will be out of Ozumo within a couple of years anyway (I'll assume here that Mokonami's naturalization is for "good" reasons, him being a sekitori), so this just allows his shisho to recruit a guy he really wants right now, instead of suddenly finding himself with an open foreigner slot and no prospective candidate scouted once Daionami calls it quits.

I'd say the point is not if the Kyokai will be happy or not with a certain number of foreigners. The point to me seems to be that the sly unsubtle underhandedness of the naturalizations orchestrated even by prominent members of the Kyokai was irking the others and making them look bad, so they stopped it. Of course, Moukonami's case may be different, but we all know those low rankers' moves were what brought all this about at this time.

The distinction I'm trying to make is that it's an internal struggle between the Oyakatas rather than an attempt to hinder recruiting of foreigners, which is the "collateral damage" here and not vice versa.

[Kintamayama 47,323]

That was only about 10 years ago. Only in January 1999, with the entrance of Kasugaou, were foreigners slowly allowed back in till it peaked with 15 new Mongolian rikishi between January-May 2001, which finally prompted the Kyokai to put a lid on it.

Not sure I'm following here...the 2002 rule change actually expanded the number of potential foreigner slots. It was two per stable with a global maximum of 40, followed by one per stable with no global maximum (and with existing multiples grandfathered in).

If you remember, the talk at that time was to re-instate the total ban for a while. The one-for-one was decided because it seemed like a good long- term solution, which I think is correct.

[Asashosakari 20,279]

The distinction I'm trying to make is that it's an internal struggle between the Oyakatas rather than an attempt to hinder recruiting of foreigners, which is the "collateral damage" here and not vice versa.

I agree with that, and it wouldn't exactly be the first time that the result of internal struggles makes them look bad publicly. But if that's what it is, that's pretty much an admission of defeat by the faction of oyakata who are critical of (expanded) foreign participation, no? If you're an oyakata who doesn't care to personally recruit more foreigners, the only reason you'd want to make it more difficult for others is that you think you can't compete with only the Japanese you're recruiting yourself. (I don't buy other, more idealistic explanations such as "keeping a level playing field", at least not as being capable of achieving majority support, rijikai or otherwise. There's far too little cohesion among stable-owners for that.)

And I'm still wondering if there's another potential loophole in getting naturalized foreigners (especially sekitori) onto a Japanese family register somehow. Yes, they'll still be gaikoku-shusshin in the sense of foreign-origin, but that's not usually how the Kyokai uses the "shusshin" term, which is more like "official residence", given that Japanese rikishi aren't restricted to listing their actual birthplace as their shusshin.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Asashosakari

[Kintamayama 47,323]

I agree with that, and it wouldn't exactly be the first time that the result of internal struggles makes them look bad publicly. But if that's what it is, that's pretty much an admission of defeat by the faction of oyakata who are critical of (expanded) foreign participation, no? If you're an oyakata who doesn't care to personally recruit more foreigners, the only reason you'd want to make it more difficult for others is that you think you can't compete with only the Japanese you're recruiting yourself. (I don't buy other, more idealistic explanations such as "keeping a level playing field", at least not as being capable of achieving majority support, rijikai or otherwise. There's far too little cohesion among stable-owners for that.)

Well, if you're from the "I don't need no foreigner " Oyakata faction, this won't change anything for you, since even if the other heyas had 4 foreigners each, it wouldn't matter since we're talking principle here, I hope... And thinking they can't compete with only the Japanese rikishi may very well be the reason they are for it. The problem is we don't really know who voted or decided. We didn't hear of any major internal arguments (actually, none-we surely would have heard something if there were..) so it must have been a wide consensus, brought on by a group of Oyakatas who "explained" the situation graphically... I don't see how this is an admission of defeat by the "anti-foreigners". It just says they saw what's coming and put their foot down, no? And I'm pretty sure that in the eyes of the Greater Japanese Fans, this decision came across pretty well, if not better. I think the only ones complaining are foreign fans, sometimes to a point of sheer paranoia, because it really isn't that major a change.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Kintamayama

[Doitsuyama 1,260]

Well, if you're from the "I don't need no foreigner " Oyakata faction, this won't change anything for you, since even if the other heyas had 4 foreigners each, it wouldn't matter since we're talking principle here, I hope...

Arguments like the bolded part let me assume that the loophole hasn't been understood properly by many people. By no means it was enabling a flood of foreigners to Ozumo like "4 foreigners in each heya". Naturalization takes at least five years, so to have 4 foreigners you'd need the first one to stay in the heya for at least fifteen years, the second one ten years... not totally impossible, but quite unlikely. And even if that happened at one heya, I can't say it looks wrong to me given the large time frame.

[Kintamayama 47,323]

Well, if you're from the "I don't need no foreigner " Oyakata faction, this won't change anything for you, since even if the other heyas had 4 foreigners each, it wouldn't matter since we're talking principle here, I hope...

Arguments like the bolded part let me assume that the loophole hasn't been understood properly by many people. By no means it was enabling a flood of foreigners to Ozumo like "4 foreigners in each heya". Naturalization takes at least five years, so to have 4 foreigners you'd need the first one to stay in the heya for at least fifteen years, the second one ten years... not totally impossible, but quite unlikely. And even if that happened at one heya, I can't say it looks wrong to me given the large time frame.

I was merely exaggerating the fact that a non-foreigner by principle heya shouldn't care less that other heyas should have as many as they like. I fully understand that it would have brought in a couple of more foreigners max, and that is EXACTLY my point-it's just no big deal and nothing sinister.

[Asashosakari 20,279]

And even if that happened at one heya, I can't say it looks wrong to me given the large time frame.

Exactly. Basically the loophole required the following conditions to be true at a heya, if we assume that naturalization by a steady sekitori is legitimate:

For stables with just one foreign rikishi:

- it can't be a sekitori, he must have been active for at least five years, and he must be interested enough - or susceptible enough to coercion - to actually go for naturalization, and he must have no plans to quit sumo anytime soon (because it hardly qualifies as circumvention of the rules if the spot was going to free up anyway), i.e. he's not getting the citizenship in preparation for his post-sumo life

For stables with multiple foreign rikishi, either due to grandfathered spots or stable merger:

- at least one foreigner must be a lower-division guy, everybody must naturalize, including sekitori who may be present, they all must have been active for at least five years, all must be interested in naturalization, and the toriteki in question must have no plans to quit sumo anytime soon

And the benefit will be exactly one new spot for each stable that actually manages to fulfill those criteria, and goes through with the process. As I insinuated above, I doubt it would have amounted to more than one additional foreigner per year, a perfectly manageable level along with the one or two new recruitings that would have taken place anyway through "natural" means. But now they've choked off the influx of new foreigners by quite a bit (by clamping down not just on supposedly illegitimate naturalizations, but also those of sekitori), hence my assessment that they're probably due for some rather unintended consequences - either a new loophole, foreign deshi being treated as more of a "commodity" (don't perform well? There's the door...), and/or backlash either from potential recruits or oyakata who are unable to give even great candidates a shot. Though it's probably going to take a bit of time, given that the recent naturalizations have already opened up a couple of spots that have yet to be filled. Of course, in case the leadership doesn't care at all, "unintended" consequences would also be a misnomer...

Anyway, I kinda doubt the current rules will survive much beyond 2013 when pretty much the entire current leader generation will have exited the stage. But if the recent rule change has the effects I'm expecting, pressure may build such that the post-2013 changes will be a lot more expansive than they would have been without it. Or in other words - the situation as it was until a week ago was probably a lot more sustainable in the long run than what they're going to have now. Oh well. Long-term vision has never been the strong point of this leader generation, so what else is new...

I was merely exaggerating the fact that a non-foreigner by principle heya shouldn't care less that other heyas should have as many as they like.

Yes, but then who exactly pushed for this change? If it's all just a petty overreaction to the Tatsunami double-naturalization, it hardly makes anybody look better...

Edited March 3, 2010 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari 20,279]

Before my posts on the topic spiral out of control even more: My complaint isn't so much that the Kyokai's decision here and others before it are outright bad, or destructive, or even racist - just that they're so completely incoherent. I'm sure it all makes perfect sense in a limited reference frame, whether that be factional struggles or something else, but once you step outside of that frame it's often hard to consider those decisions anything but head-scratching, and you really have to wonder why nobody in the current leadership is capable of taking that step.

The apparently about-to-be-revived tachiai enforcement was a perfect example: On a purely theoretical level it's a straight-forward decision - just enforce the rules that are already on the book - and in the frame of reference of the rijikai as a rule-making body it made perfect sense for them to be doing it. But once it collided with reality, namely rikishi who have spent years being conditioned to expect something different, it quickly turned into a complete laughingstock, and everybody (fans and rikishi alike) saw it coming a mile away. The guys in charge didn't.

The regular complaint about the Kyokai is that they're always taking too long to address important matters; but anytime they "solve" a problem by shooting from the hip, it's arguably even worse. It's frustrating to watch, and the mere fact that it's possible to explain the issue without even using the words "kosho" and "Asashoryu" is proof enough that it's far too prevalent.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Asashosakari

[Kintamayama 47,323]

I was merely exaggerating the fact that a non-foreigner by principle heya shouldn't care less that other heyas should have as many as they like.

Yes, but then who exactly pushed for this change? If it's all just a petty overreaction to the Tatsunami double-naturalization, it hardly makes anybody look better...

In very short-it's the principle. The Kyokai , I surmise, felt it was made to look foolish by this growing phenomenon, and decided to put a quick end to it the only way they know-quickly, and deal with any consequences that arise later, if at all.

[Asashosakari 20,279]

In very short-it's the principle. The Kyokai , I surmise, felt it was made to look foolish by this growing phenomenon, and decided to put a quick end to it the only way they know-quickly, and deal with any consequences that arise later, if at all.

But it's probably growing primarily because a great number of the (very many) rikishi from the ~year 2000 recruiting drive have mature careers now. And dovetailing with Nishinoshima's devilish advocacy, shouldn't the Kyokai be happy that many of those guys are integrated enough to naturalize instead of being mere mercenaries? Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I'm not going to deny that there's potential for shenanigans with lower-rankers, but the fact that future 'legitimate' naturalizations of sekitori equivalent to Kyokutenho and Kasugao (with potentially 15+ year long careers) also won't release their gaijin spots for somebody else to take...well, besides being incoherent it just leaves a little bit of a bad taste. Then again, perhaps I'm right and this gets revised inside of five years anyway...

BTW, would you know it - the possibility of using naturalization to circumvent the whole quota thing was discussed around these parts as far back as 2005 (starts in post #7, though it goes off the rails a bit about multiple-foreigner stables).

[Asashosakari 20,279]

Idle musings that have no real purpose other than as a thought experiment...would the Kyokai be in the clear if they "de-personalized" the foreigner spots? What I'm thinking of is this:

Let's ignore the question of how to handle existing rikishi for a moment, and assume that a particular stable has no foreigner, naturalized or otherwise. The shisho may now sign up exactly one foreigner, with the provision that he may not enroll another until this one has either retired or reached some level of success, say, 30 sekitori basho (the level required to become oyakata), independent of whether the guy has naturalized or not. Basically, thinking of it as a specialized contract of sorts, of which each shisho may only hold one at a time, and which expires as soon as one of the aforementioned conditions is met. Or would that still be considered discriminatory in the event that a rikishi naturalizes before reaching the threshold? What I'm trying to do with that construction is to circumvent the problem of the current quota, namely that it continually checks an attribute of the rikishi himself, whereas this would merely check whether such a contract is already on file for that stable.