Sign in to follow this  
Chisaiyama

Haru 2010 Banzke

Recommended Posts

I have attempted due diligence and not found any other topics currently discussing this so I am starting this thread, moderators if I am in error please feel free to merge this thread with an existing one.

How do you think Asa will be handled on the Haru Banzuke? Chiyotaikai is obvious as he retired during the Hatsu basho and will therefore simply not be a factor. Asa however retired after the banzuke committee had already met and had organized the banzuke on the 3rd day following the basho. Eleven days after the basho had ended in fact and 8 days after the comittee had met.

Obviously, as Yusho winner, Asa would have, at the time they met been placed at the YE spot and Hakuho on the YW spot. Will this be treated like Tokitsuumi when he had to intai after the banzuke had been drawn up, to become Tokitsukaze Oyakata? Will the YE spot just be left blank when it goes to the printers and Hakuho remain in the YW spot or did the intai occur quickly enough that Hakuho can be switched to the YE spot.

My thinking is that it will follow the Tokitsuumi model and the YE spot will be left blank and Hakuho will have to wait until Natsu to regain the YE spot but I am interested in the more experienced (in the world of banzuke guessing) members' opinions. (Sign of approval...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

short answer: As it was an "ordinary" retirement, Asa will be YE on the Haru 2010 Banzuke.

explanation:

The "Tokitsuumi-case" was different and special:

"Due to the unusual nature of the dismissal of the previous Tokitsukaze-oyakata, he acquired both the heya and toshiyori-kabu for the Tokitsukaze name immediately on retirement. Had his shikona remained on the banzuke he would therefore have been listed twice"

In Asa's case there is no reason to leave his spot blank.

It's just a "normal" after basho retirement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That makes sense, but Wakanoho and Wakakirin's spots were left blank when they were dismissed and they weren't going to be listed twice. I guess "leaving in disgrace" is another reason for blanking. As Asa did retire and wasn't fired, though, I think he will be on it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I get the feeling that the dismissing rather than retiring is the key factor here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks everyone, your replies are quite logical, had I thought on it a little longer I probably would have come to the same decision. It's nice to have consensus however.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
... scurries back to his GTB entry...

This was helpful for me as well! I wrote out my entry but haven't gone on line to enter, after reading this... I realized that yes, Asashoryu will be on there, I had just left east blank!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ummm... Errr.... (In a state of confusion...) (Shaking head...) (On the banzuke...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ummm... Errr.... (In a state of confusion...) (Applauding...) (Shaking head...)

(On the banzuke...) Seriously? Is this the real banzuke? Something missing, perhaps?????

Edit: Yes, yes, I know.... no Asa, but shouldn't there be that blank spot? And why is it an odd number?

Edited by Treblemaker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was a little surprised after what I had read here but what I really wondered was why Hakuho got East. Unless I'm crazy I thought that when there was one Yokozuna before he wasn't always east depended on if he got the yusho. Maybe I'm just losing my mind or all the test grading is confusing me....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I was a little surprised after what I had read here but what I really wondered was why Hakuho got East. Unless I'm crazy I thought that when there was one Yokozuna before he wasn't always east depended on if he got the yusho. Maybe I'm just losing my mind or all the test grading is confusing me....

One Yokozuna=always East, no yusho notwithstanding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

thank you! It has been awhile since I remember really caring about the yokozuna ranking when there was only one.. I was trying to think back to when Akebono, Taka, Waka, etc... were retiring.. but hey, my brain is getting old fast! (In a state of confusion...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The reason for Asa's blank spot is being elaborately explained today in the papers. The reason given is that it was possible to do because the retirement came not too long after the Banzuke committee convened and there was still time to change it. They cite a prior example from back in 1971 when Yokozuna Tamanoumi died. Other examples given were the dope guys and Tokitsuumi. OTOH, when Ryuukouzan died while active, his intended new rank was his highest ever rank, so he was left on the Banzuke in honor of that.

Edited by Kintamayama

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm very curious how they explain this strange decision.

Asa didn't die, hasn't been expelled and didn't have to take over a heya.

It was just a "normal" intai and therefore I can find no serious reason for deleting him (In a state of confusion...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I am thinking about the deletion of Asashoryu from Haru banzuke is that Kyokai wanted to set a reminder for the future, that no matter how great one's achievements in sumo are, the rikishi has to follow a code of conduct, which was violated by Asa many times, especially from the Kyokai's POV. It could still be their final act they could use as a form of punishment for Asa, but that's just my 2 cents' worth.

If any official reason is given, then we will get to know, otherwise it opens us a room for speculations (In a state of confusion...)

Regards,

Iginishiki

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ummm... Errr.... (In a state of confusion...) (Shaking head...) (On the banzuke...)

(In a state of confusion...) Seriously? Is this the real banzuke? Something missing, perhaps?????

Edit: Yes, yes, I know.... no Asa, but shouldn't there be that blank spot? And why is it an odd number?

Oshima's revenge. (How inadvertantly prophetic of me...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oshima's revenge. (How inadvertantly prophetic of me...)

We already had 41 a few bashos ago when Tokitsuumi was a ghost, so it's not that sinister..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The reason for Asa's blank spot is being elaborately explained today in the papers. The reason given is that it was possible to do because the retirement came not too long after the Banzuke committee convened and there was still time to change it.

Hi all !

(it's been some time...)

So, if I understand correctly, it was still possible to write again all makuuchi division (erase Asashoryu, put Hakuho on the East side, and write 20 name on the West side instead of the initial 21).

But was it already too late to get one more juryo rikishi promoted to makuuchi, in order to get the usual count of 42 ?

This banzuke looks (to me, at least !) so strange as it is right now, so... uneven and unballanced !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But was it already too late to get one more juryo rikishi promoted to makuuchi, in order to get the usual count of 42 ?

This banzuke looks (to me, at least !) so strange as it is right now, so... uneven and unballanced !

Moving one more Juryo to Makuuchi would have meant reshuffling all of the Juryo and Makushita rankings, and having to move one more Makushita to sekitorihood. The banzuke had been worked out and new promotions had been announced before Asa bailed out. They took the easy way out by giving Asa a slap in the face and pulling out the eraser.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moving one more Juryo to Makuuchi would have meant reshuffling all of the Juryo and Makushita rankings, and having to move one more Makushita to sekitorihood.

Not necessarily the latter - you can also fix it by un-demoting a guy or two along the way somewhere. The makuuchi<->juryo movements aren't announced early after all, and neither are the demotions from juryo to makushita. I think that's in fact what happened in the aforementioned case of Tamanoumi: My best guess is that they fixed it up by giving an additional promotion to J5w Nagahama, and a non-demotion to J7w Taikan or J9e Iwatora, with the empty spot eventually surfacing at the end of makushita.

I think they're just not in the habit of such overarching solutions anymore, and nowadays any revisions are limited to the affected division only. (BTW, I wrote about another case a while ago.) This time around it's probably also due to the fact that there wasn't really any good way to fix it via non-demotions...neither Shotenro nor Hoshikaze were all that borderline (Hoshikaze isn't even ranked Ms1e which would be kinda necessary for a late shift), and there was no additional juryo to promote either. And they're almost certainly never going to promote an additional rikishi from makushita to juryo because, as you mentioned, those promotions are already made official early.

At any rate, keep in mind that (as I understand it) there's not necessarily one pristine and perfectly correct master banzuke - if the gyoji had already painted more than makuuchi, the removal of Asashoryu only meant he had to redo the makuuchi part on a second sheet, and then it would be combined with the rest from the original sheet for duplication. So keeping down the amount of additional work is probably another reason for limiting changes to a single division.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A gyoji is represented in the banzuke meeting as a bookkeeper of sort for banzuke writing but he won't start actually writing the banzuke until a few days later so there was certainly enough time to do one thing or another. Nothing sinister was going on, it was just a normal banzuke writing as far as the gyoji was concerned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The only photo I can find of a banzuke being written is this one and it certainly looks like one complete piece.

1-1.jpg

Note, however, that Hisayuki is putting in only the decorations. The 'real' banzuke is written by Keinosuke these days, AFAIK, though there are always one or two other gyojis copying the banzuke (or old banzukes) for practice. So far, there has always been just one master sheet written (it takes about a week, after all); but these days they might be able to ring the changes with photographs. I must check with my gyoji friends -- when we meet up.

Orion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I must check with my gyoji friends -- when we meet up.

While you are at it, please ask them what becomes of the original copy. The question came up in a previous post, but no answer was provided.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I must check with my gyoji friends -- when we meet up.

While you are at it, please ask them what becomes of the original copy. The question came up in a previous post, but no answer was provided.

I must have missed that question. I haven't looked lately, but the original is normally put up in a frame on a 1st floor wall of the Kokugikan, with a specimen of the reduced size (for printing) beside it. Turn left at the main entrance, and it's just round the next corner, opposite the souvenir stall.

Orion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The only photo I can find of a banzuke being written is this one and it certainly looks like one complete piece.

I didn't mean that there's no master copy at all, just that in the rare event when there's a section to be fixed (i.e. changes that require more than just whiting out one name) they don't re-write the whole thing, and just fix it in "post-production" for the printing process by overlaying the original large sheet with the rewritten part, or whatever. But no, I have no idea where I've read that or otherwise gotten the impression, so I could be way off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this