Shomishuu 0 Posted February 6, 2010 To take a semi-hypothetical example from another country: U.S. Baseball has had well-publicized issues with steroids these last few years. Now imagine that every single "serious" baseball fan (loosely defined as those spending significant amounts of time and money) consider steroids no big deal, while the rest of the public consider them an abomination. There's absolutely no way that Major League Baseball could simply say, "oh, our core customers are fine with things the way they are, no need to worry" - baseball's the "National Pastime" and a cultural icon of the U.S. and as such the opinions of people who may not be paying attention to what's happening on a daily basis matter a whole lot, because many of them will still have strong opinions on what they don't want to be happening, and for any entity that has such a "venerable institution" status it's simply impossible to ignore that. (For a non-sport example, consider royal houses in constitutional monarchies.)That's exactly the issue the Kyokai has been facing. Of course there is also a strong and dedicated minority of Asashoryu fans in Japan - if that wasn't the case he'd have been dumped years ago. But they're vastly outnumbered by people who pay only casual attention but for whom Ozumo - and especially a yokozuna - is (at least supposed to be) a steady rock in the cultural landscape, and few care to see those aspects "modernized" or "dragged into the 21st century" (how I hate that presumptious phrase). They just want it to be there, the way it's always been there. This may not relate to fans outside the U.S, but something just occurred to me that underlines this point in spades. When I was much younger I used to be a "serious" baseball fan but now I definitely fit into the casual category. I am much more into following the NFL now. Anyway, recently when the disgraced Mark McGwire finally admitted to having used steriods in the 90s while breaking home run records (this, in a pathetic crocodile tear-filled interview) so he could be 'clean' when accepting a job as hitting instructor for the Cardinals, I finally lost it (internally...). I remembered the sick performance he gave before Congress several years ago. I said to myself that he is the biggest dirtbag to ever play baseball. "He's worse than Bonds, worse than Sosa." My thought train went on..."If there were any justice in the world, this guy would donate every thing he owns to the food bank and then walk straight off the edge of a cliff." I was on a real tear inside, just ripping myself up over this slime ball. And then I thought, "Wait a minute. He hasn't shot, raped or kidnapped anyone. In all likelihood he's a good husband, responsible dad, blah blah." Why did I react this way? It then occurred to me that there was no athlete in any other sport - including the NFL - who could have invoked a similar reaction. Only a baseball player could have done that to me. Sumo may not be the official national sport of Japan, and baseball may not really be the national pastime in the U.S. anymore, but they still occupy a special place in the hearts of their respective citizenry. They have these casual fans who lay low until the dirt bubbles up, and then they unload. They don't post on fan forums or spend oodles of cash, but still carry enormous sway just because of their numbers. If you lose them, you may as well try to keep the sport afloat on pay TV, so you have to appease them. The casual sumo fans in Japan have been appeased but I'm not sure about the McGwire situation yet. A hitting instructor works out of the public eye, but if he tries to go beyond that, I don't know. I won't be happy, I know that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 45,144 Posted February 6, 2010 (edited) Asashouryuu continues to irk the press even after his intai. His Hawaii jungyo is being reported sarcastically, as if he isn't doing his intai according to protocol, whatever that is. Then, there's a story out that right after his intai press conference ("No apology", ranted ex-Taihou, among other things) a couple of his buddies were invited to his house for a little drinky-poo - Harumafuji, Asasekiryuu, ex-Kyokutenzan, and his tsukebito Minanosato ( I wonder who the next yumitorikishi will be..) among others. "The Yokozuna was as usual," reported one of them, saying there was no sign of any shock. The underlying tone of his after- intai actions is one of continuing disappointment (yet with no surprise..) with his behavior. Edited February 6, 2010 by Kintamayama Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kozaru 0 Posted February 6, 2010 Asashouryuu continues to irk the press even after his intai. His Hawaii jungyo is being reported sarcastically, as if he isn't doing his intai according to protocol, whatever that is. Then, there's a story out that right after his intai press conference ("No apology", ranted ex-Taihou, among other things) a couple of his buddies were invited to his house for a little drinky-poo - Harumafuji, Asasekiryuu, ex-Kyokutenzan, and his tsukebito Minanosato ( I wonder who the next yumitorikishi will be..) among others. "The Yokozuna was as usual," reported one of them, saying there was no sign of any shock.The underlying tone of his after- intai actions is one of continuing disappointment (yet with no surprise..) with his behavior. Maybe the press can chase his car and try to kill him with an accident in a tunnel. Then they get to write even more about him and sell the photos of his corpse. That might satisfy the vultures. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kuroyama 715 Posted February 6, 2010 Asashouryuu continues to irk the press even after his intai. His Hawaii jungyo is being reported sarcastically, as if he isn't doing his intai according to protocol, whatever that is. Then, there's a story out that right after his intai press conference ("No apology", ranted ex-Taihou, among other things) a couple of his buddies were invited to his house for a little drinky-poo - Harumafuji, Asasekiryuu, ex-Kyokutenzan, and his tsukebito Minanosato ( I wonder who the next yumitorikishi will be..) among others. "The Yokozuna was as usual," reported one of them, saying there was no sign of any shock.The underlying tone of his after- intai actions is one of continuing disappointment (yet with no surprise..) with his behavior. Did they, suddenly and for no new reason in particular, expect him to start behaving like a Japanese man? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yorikiried by fate 2,028 Posted February 6, 2010 And if yes, what was he supposed to do? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chiyozakura 148 Posted February 6, 2010 20 min video of Asa on the headline news in EnglishKeep this one on the quiet and among the forum - lest it gets quickly pulled. I put it on a video site called Vimeo (takes longer vids than youtube). Lasts nights headline news in English (dubbed). Sad that they took the video off now. I watched it yesterday and it showed perfectly why I have this negative impression of Asashoryu. This guy had so much talent. Between the tachi-ai and the kimarite he was outstanding in a positive way, but there were also these scenes with thosed raised arms, attacks on already defeated opponents, clinched fists etc. He could have become an all-time great, a role model for young rikishi. But he threw all that away, for whatever reason. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paolo 0 Posted February 6, 2010 And if yes, what was he supposed to do? I had a dream: the naughty boy had retired alone in his house, closed all the doors and the windows, unplugged the phone and the TV set, and then cried, cried, cried. One little meal a day (eaten with his right hand), no drinking at all but plain water (sparkling water would be considered no hinkaku). Beating his chest with his fist (right fist) and repeating "mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa". He thought to leave, but he could not pack up, because he had to take his suitcase down from above the wardrobe, and doing that with both hands would be considered a guts pose...So he was purifying himself until his adieu cerimony... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kozaru 0 Posted February 6, 2010 (edited) This guy had so much talent. Between the tachi-ai and the kimarite he was outstanding in a positive way, but there were also these scenes with thosed raised arms, attacks on already defeated opponents, clinched fists etc. He could have become an all-time great, a role model for young rikishi. But he threw all that away, for whatever reason. It's arguable that without that personality (which I stress would be quite average in Western sports), he never would have been so good in the first place. It was his fire and intensity that got him to where he was. For example, Asashoryu was 5-1 career in (Makuuchi) playoffs. When he needed to win, he brought the fire! His only loss? That ugly henka by Ozeki Hakuho, resulting in the most disappointing playoff match ever. For comparison, Hakuho, who has much less fire, is a mere 3-4 in playoffs, with one of those wins being the ugly henka of Asashoryu. It could be argued that without the henka, Asa would be 6-0 in playoffs, and Hakuho a mere 2-5. But even without it, the trend seems clear. Now WHO has the personality of greatness? Edited February 6, 2010 by Kozaru Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chiyozakura 148 Posted February 6, 2010 I have to disagree here. The best playoff record is hold by Chiyonofuji, who is 7-0. He was also a very intense guy always up for the challenge. He had the reputation for being the toughest guy around, taking his training partners to the limit and sometimes even beyond. But still he always managed to act according to protocol. And to be honest I do not see why you should not be able to be intense and still act appropiately. It is all a question of selfcontrol. I do not even remember the playoff you talk about, but I am absolutely sure that the match can not have been worse than the Tochiazuma-Chiyotaikai playoff, that ended in a 0.5 second henka. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kozaru 0 Posted February 6, 2010 I have to disagree here. The best playoff record is hold by Chiyonofuji, who is 7-0. He was also a very intense guy always up for the challenge. He had the reputation for being the toughest guy around, taking his training partners to the limit and sometimes even beyond. But still he always managed to act according to protocol. And to be honest I do not see why you should not be able to be intense and still act appropiately. It is all a question of selfcontrol.I do not even remember the playoff you talk about, but I am absolutely sure that the match can not have been worse than the Tochiazuma-Chiyotaikai playoff, that ended in a 0.5 second henka. Fair point. But perhaps Chiyonofuji was more gifted than even Asa. It's hard to say what Asa's talents would have allowed him to accomplish, minus the personality. The playoff I'm talking about was in Haru 2007 while Hak was still an Ozeki. It was his first yusho with Asa actually present in the tournament. I'd be surprised if it did last 0.5 seconds. Kimarite was hatakikomi right off the bat. Asa kinda deserved it, as he had just henka'd Chiyo a few minutes before to get into the match in the first place. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kozaru 0 Posted February 6, 2010 (edited) Here, Haru 2007 playoff. What a rip-off! Edited February 6, 2010 by Kozaru Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chiyozakura 148 Posted February 6, 2010 Here, Haru 2007 playoff. What a rip-off! Ok, agreed, they should share the honour of worst playoff, although I am more suprised to see Asashoryu on the receiving end than Chiyotaikai, who eas prone to those losses. Nishinoshima raised an interesting question. So far I understood that Asashoryu is haigyo. No Japanese citizen, no jun-toshiyori or whatever they call it for Ozeki/Yokozuna. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryafuji 814 Posted February 6, 2010 Sad that they took the video off now. I watched it yesterday and it showed perfectly why I have this negative impression of Asashoryu. This guy had so much talent. Between the tachi-ai and the kimarite he was outstanding in a positive way, but there were also these scenes with thosed raised arms, attacks on already defeated opponents, clinched fists etc. He could have become an all-time great, a role model for young rikishi. But he threw all that away, for whatever reason. That finger-pointing to the sand as if to say, "come on shinpan, look, he touched outside" was incredible - I've never seen another rikishi do that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,344 Posted February 6, 2010 I guess Asashoryu is now Asashoryu oyakata and will be until his dampatsu? At least I haven't seen anything about him leaving the kyokai so far. I was under the assumption that you needed Japanese citizenship to own a kabu. Not the case for ichidai toshiyori (which is what a yokozuna is entitled to be for 5 years)? No, he's not listed as an oyakata anywhere, and I'm pretty sure at least one of the hundreds of articles over the last few days did mention that his lack of citizenship precludes his continued staying in the Kyokai. I just going blank on other retiring foreign rikishi without citizenship. Kyokushuzan would have been eligible for one-year jun-toshiyori status if he'd been a Japanese citizen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pippooshu 1 Posted February 6, 2010 (edited) Well they've already run the Hawaiians out of sumo, and it looks like the Mongolian purge is now underway, so the Eastern Europe era will probably be in full swing by the middle of the decade. After that, who knows...Africans? Aaaaaa come off it! There are about 35 mongolian rikishi and I do know some of them. They are highly respected by their Oyakata and their stablemates so its nonsense to speak of a mongolian purge under way. Great! :-P I've talked with former rikishi Kyokutenzan, a mongolian rikishi and he said to me wonderful sentences about sumo way. About sumo establishment and organization. I think there isn't a mongolian purge under way. Asashoryu was a singular case. Magnificent, strange case...but one. PS: One stupid question for you: is it possible to turn back with the Intai decision? With a double decision between Kyokai and Asashoryu? Edited February 6, 2010 by Pippooshu Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryafuji 814 Posted February 6, 2010 No, he's not listed as an oyakata anywhere, and I'm pretty sure at least one of the hundreds of articles over the last few days did mention that his lack of citizenship precludes his continued staying in the Kyokai. Which would mean someone who wasn't a member of the kyokai gets a dampatsushiki? That can't be right. Kyokushuzan got one, didn't he? He wasn't a member of the kyokai. I seem to remember there was some controversy because he initially wanted it to be held in Mongolia, but he ended up having it in the Kokugikan as normal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jonosuke 28 Posted February 6, 2010 (edited) One can only stay with the Kyokai after active career if he has a Japanese citizenship. Since Asashoryu does not possess one, he can never be an oyakata. Now as for a Dampatsu ceremony, there is no rule as it is not organized by the Kyokai but by a supporters group of heya or rikishi. Anyone can rent the Kokugikan and anyone can invite anyone to come to his dampatsu ceremony there. However if a retired rikishi holds a dampatsu ceremony at the Kokugikan's main dohyo, one has to follow certain Kyokai protocols, often with Ichimon rikishi, sekitori, gyoji, yobidashi etc as it will be advertized as a Kyokai sponsored event and becomes its function (the organizing group will need to sell substantial number of tickets to break even though as it will be pretty expensive venture). Now if Asashoryu did not retire on his own and the directors voted on to dismiss him from the Kyokai, he would not have been able to have his ceremony at the Kokugikan and no Kyokai members have an obligation to attend if he decides to have one at another venue. Edited February 6, 2010 by Jonosuke Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chiyozakura 148 Posted February 6, 2010 No, he's not listed as an oyakata anywhere First task of new Oyakata is always security service. Sounds like the perfect job for him :-P "If you touch Sakari's back one more time I'll kill you at the river!" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,344 Posted February 6, 2010 (edited) Which would mean someone who wasn't a member of the kyokai gets a dampatsushiki? That can't be right. Is this a gray area or is there some defined rule I wonder. Didn't somebody like Takanowaka get a proper Kokugikan danpatsu, too? Actually, now I wonder... (Ah, forgot to read the rest of the thread again, nevermind.) Kyokushuzan wasn't entitled to jun-toshiyori status was he? [Just noticed Asashosakari's comment above so ignore that one]. Can't remember when they ended that practice. Was Toki the last non-ozeki to get it? They ended it one month after Shuzan retired. Harunoyama grabbed the last available (and it turned out, final) spot in the same basho. Edited February 6, 2010 by Asashosakari Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Raishu 208 Posted February 6, 2010 Didn't somebody like Takanowaka get a proper Kokugikan danpatsu, too? Hmm, Hayateumi comes to my mind. He retired and decided on a regular job outside the Kyokai, but had his danpatsushiki at the Kokugikan. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,185 Posted February 6, 2010 To take a semi-hypothetical example from another country: U.S. Baseball has had well-publicized issues with steroids these last few years. Now imagine that every single "serious" baseball fan (loosely defined as those spending significant amounts of time and money) consider steroids no big deal, while the rest of the public consider them an abomination. There's absolutely no way that Major League Baseball could simply say, "oh, our core customers are fine with things the way they are, no need to worry" - baseball's the "National Pastime" and a cultural icon of the U.S. and as such the opinions of people who may not be paying attention to what's happening on a daily basis matter a whole lot, because many of them will still have strong opinions on what they don't want to be happening, and for any entity that has such a "venerable institution" status it's simply impossible to ignore that. (For a non-sport example, consider royal houses in constitutional monarchies.)That's exactly the issue the Kyokai has been facing. Of course there is also a strong and dedicated minority of Asashoryu fans in Japan - if that wasn't the case he'd have been dumped years ago. But they're vastly outnumbered by people who pay only casual attention but for whom Ozumo - and especially a yokozuna - is (at least supposed to be) a steady rock in the cultural landscape, and few care to see those aspects "modernized" or "dragged into the 21st century" (how I hate that presumptious phrase). They just want it to be there, the way it's always been there. This may not relate to fans outside the U.S, but something just occurred to me that underlines this point in spades. When I was much younger I used to be a "serious" baseball fan but now I definitely fit into the casual category. I am much more into following the NFL now. Isn't it really fascinating how the NFL gets more popular because of baseball's steroid problems? I mean, you of all people really should know that the NFL used steroids much more than baseball, it just isn't reported as much. Seems like the media get there job done properly and thoroughly if they can whitewash brains even from respectable people like you. Maybe also of some relevance in the Asashoryu case. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,185 Posted February 6, 2010 Nishinoshima raised an interesting question. So far I understood that Asashoryu is haigyo. No Japanese citizen, no jun-toshiyori or whatever they call it for Ozeki/Yokozuna. There is no haigyo since many years now. Even toriteki are intai if they leave the kyokai. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ilovesumo 12 Posted February 6, 2010 Here, Haru 2007 playoff. What a rip-off! I have it, filmed from the obverse side, if anybody needs that.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ilovesumo 12 Posted February 6, 2010 (edited) No, he's not listed as an oyakata anywhere, and I'm pretty sure at least one of the hundreds of articles over the last few days did mention that his lack of citizenship precludes his continued staying in the Kyokai. Which would mean someone who wasn't a member of the kyokai gets a dampatsushiki? That can't be right. Kyokushuzan got one, didn't he? He wasn't a member of the kyokai. I seem to remember there was some controversy because he initially wanted it to be held in Mongolia, but he ended up having it in the Kokugikan as normal. In Shu's as in Hayateumi's case, there was some trading going on. Hayate was kinda dismissed behind the curtain cause of his private matters as well as Shu was..the trade was --> you leave and that for you get the fat public danpatsu. I went to both. Both had been public. I also went to Toki's (not public) cause somebody helped me to get in. Edited February 6, 2010 by ilovesumo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shomishuu 0 Posted February 6, 2010 To take a semi-hypothetical example from another country: U.S. Baseball has had well-publicized issues with steroids these last few years. Now imagine that every single "serious" baseball fan (loosely defined as those spending significant amounts of time and money) consider steroids no big deal, while the rest of the public consider them an abomination. There's absolutely no way that Major League Baseball could simply say, "oh, our core customers are fine with things the way they are, no need to worry" - baseball's the "National Pastime" and a cultural icon of the U.S. and as such the opinions of people who may not be paying attention to what's happening on a daily basis matter a whole lot, because many of them will still have strong opinions on what they don't want to be happening, and for any entity that has such a "venerable institution" status it's simply impossible to ignore that. (For a non-sport example, consider royal houses in constitutional monarchies.)That's exactly the issue the Kyokai has been facing. Of course there is also a strong and dedicated minority of Asashoryu fans in Japan - if that wasn't the case he'd have been dumped years ago. But they're vastly outnumbered by people who pay only casual attention but for whom Ozumo - and especially a yokozuna - is (at least supposed to be) a steady rock in the cultural landscape, and few care to see those aspects "modernized" or "dragged into the 21st century" (how I hate that presumptious phrase). They just want it to be there, the way it's always been there. This may not relate to fans outside the U.S, but something just occurred to me that underlines this point in spades. When I was much younger I used to be a "serious" baseball fan but now I definitely fit into the casual category. I am much more into following the NFL now. Isn't it really fascinating how the NFL gets more popular because of baseball's steroid problems? I mean, you of all people really should know that the NFL used steroids much more than baseball, it just isn't reported as much. Seems like the media get there job done properly and thoroughly if they can whitewash brains even from respectable people like you. Maybe also of some relevance in the Asashoryu case. Hmm.... I was more into the NFL way before baseball's steroid problems became...well, a problem. I'm older than you think. :-) I don't know why I'm smiling about that... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites