Asashoryu INTAI - Feb 4 2010

[James H 0]

Kyodo is reporting that the YDC had recommended his retirement - it seems that he really had little choice in the matter. Better to go under his own steam rather than be pushed.

[Kozaru 0]

...(an undefined group of Japanese people) expect its top representative to be a showcase of the old Japanese virtues.

You're right, it is somewhat laughable. And a free democracy in selection of board members is also not one of those virtues, as we learned this week. I'm sure that an undefined group of Japanese people also expect the board to be chosen using the old rules of "wait your turn", rather than voting for the ones who have the best ideas. (Edit: I forgot to mention blatant sexism not allowing women to present the awards in the ring)

Some old values are good, others need to die. The simple fact that the values are old is no reason to keep them around. I'll stand by my claim that a guy like Asashoryu is a bigger draw for sumo than a guy like Hakuho (hopefully nobody has stats to shoot that down). That reflects the current desires of the current Japanese people. They just need to get used to the idea being openly stated. If you ask people, everybody wants to go home from work early (ie. on time), but the first person who actually does will get criticised.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Kozaru

[shumitto 418]

Yesterday I was about to post something like "the wind of change", citing the new wave of up and coming talents replacing some of the old-timers still around. The year started with Chiyotaikai's departure, pretty welcome by the way he was fighting, but Asashoryu had yet a good season and a couple of Yusho left in him. Sad to see him go !!!

;-)

[James H 0]

Anyone can be a thug and a bully. That's boring. Watching someone show complete self control and embody the ideal of a yokozuna both on and off the dohyo is a helluva lot more interesting.

Hear hear. On of the many attractions of ozumo is the contrast between extreme violence and extreme self-control. Without it, you might as just be watching pro-wrestling.

[Kozaru 0]

Asa puts butts in seats. I can could picture people saying, "I want to go see Asashoryu fight." I can't picture nearly as many saying, "I want to go see Hakuho fight."

The flip side of that is that Asashoryu's continuous bad behaviour and scandals turns many people off. He did nothing to make parents think they would want their kid to join that world.

What about inspiring Mongolian kids? You know, the real future contenders for yusho? And what about murder turning off Japanese kids? Are you disputing that Asa put butts in seats? If you agree that he did, do you also think that hurts sumo in the recruiting department?

On of the many attractions of ozumo is the contrast between extreme violence and extreme self-control. Without it, you might as just be watching pro-wrestling.

So we can only choose from the 2 extremes? You think Asa's behaviour in the ring bordered on pro-wrestling? That's not right at all, it was nowhere close to that. Nobody for a little middle ground (closer to the hinkaku than pro-wrestling)?

Edited February 4, 2010 by Kozaru

[paolo 0]

Asashoryu is gone... is boredom here to stay ?

One mans boredom is another mans hinkaku.

I think he's referring to the inevitable Hakuho yusho clinched on Day 1 of each basho. It was like that with Asa for a long time. Everybody was desperate for some excitement until Kotooshu, and later Hakuho, came along.

Not exactly my point. For years I have been waking up in the morning and rushing to this forum to see "what has happened yesterday and what is happening today", even when there was no basho going on. And 90% of the interesting things were "Asashoryu did this" or "Asashoryu said that". How much of this will survive ? Does somebody really mean that we will be overwhelmed by reports of what Hakuho or Harumafuji does or says, apart from the trivial "I will do my best", "Thanks for your support" and so on ? Or by polemics about an extra-shove or a left hand or a guts pose or whatever else ? Augh, Big Boredom is here to stay....

[Peterao 3]

Hakuho's chance of winning his first yusho in the kokugikan since 2008 have gone up.

Despite that, he is not taking the news very well.

Hakuho Press Conference

[Asashosakari 18,968]

For years I have been waking up in the morning and rushing to this forum to see "what has happened yesterday and what is happening today", even when there was no basho going on. And 90% of the interesting things were "Asashoryu did this" or "Asashoryu said that". How much of this will survive ?

Interesting? That was the most tiresome part of the last few years for me. There are dozens of aspects of Ozumo that I can easily work up more of an interest for, and if anything perhaps Asashoryu's departure will finally wean a few more people off the cheap thrills.

At any rate, kame got it exactly correct here:

The easy answer is of course "because Takamisakari is not a yokozuna", so he gets a break. Remember sumo is supposed to be the kokugi, the national sport, even though officially it isn't, so they (an undefined group of Japanese people) expect its top representative to be a showcase of the old Japanese virtues. Considering the strong ties sumo has had with some yakuza groups for decades, this is laughable. More popular among young Japanese people by far are K-1, soccer, etc.

To take a semi-hypothetical example from another country: U.S. Baseball has had well-publicized issues with steroids these last few years. Now imagine that every single "serious" baseball fan (loosely defined as those spending significant amounts of time and money) consider steroids no big deal, while the rest of the public consider them an abomination. There's absolutely no way that Major League Baseball could simply say, "oh, our core customers are fine with things the way they are, no need to worry" - baseball's the "National Pastime" and a cultural icon of the U.S. and as such the opinions of people who may not be paying attention to what's happening on a daily basis matter a whole lot, because many of them will still have strong opinions on what they don't want to be happening, and for any entity that has such a "venerable institution" status it's simply impossible to ignore that. (For a non-sport example, consider royal houses in constitutional monarchies.)

That's exactly the issue the Kyokai has been facing. Of course there is also a strong and dedicated minority of Asashoryu fans in Japan - if that wasn't the case he'd have been dumped years ago. But they're vastly outnumbered by people who pay only casual attention but for whom Ozumo - and especially a yokozuna - is (at least supposed to be) a steady rock in the cultural landscape, and few care to see those aspects "modernized" or "dragged into the 21st century" (how I hate that presumptious phrase). They just want it to be there, the way it's always been there. And making things worse for the Kyokai, the education ministry as their direct superior holds pretty much the same attitude. Asashoryu always delivered exciting performances for the paying customers, but he failed just as spectacularly in upholding the responsibilities toward the public at large that come with his rank.

Anyway, as long as Ozumo continues to hold that national icon status, any true renaissance of the sport will require a yokozuna with strong hinkaku (well, probably more than one) who can capture the attention of the wider public, and so all the "but Hakuho is sooo boring!" cries are completely missing the point. It's no coincidence that, for all the on-dohyo excitement Asashoryu brought, it never really resulted in strong business for the Kyokai, even after Hakuho arrived to provide a good guy counterpart - all the while plenty of people here and elsewhere always acted as though Asashoryu should have been capable of drawing in the masses by his sheer charisma alone. That's just not how it works.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Asashosakari

[Arslan 0]

Japanese Sumo Association and Japanese sumo fans are celebrating Asa's intai. (Clapping wildly...) Hurrai! Nobody can beat Taiho's record now! Two Japanese yokozunas remain on top. Asa is only third. All Japanese sumo fans are relieved. Thank God, he is finally gone. He could win 7 more times easily in 3 or 4 years and then what would happen with the Japanese national sport? Gaijin would be on top of Japanese sumo records? Asa would be on top of Japanese dai yokozunas. No way! It must not happen. Never! (Annoyed...) Somebody tried hard to find a good reason to get rid of Asa. So, congratulations! ;-) Asa's haters are won! Enjoy your boring sumo with yokozuna Hakuho! Actually I think Hakuho won't be able to win more than 14 times. Baruto, Harumafuji, all gaijins ...

Goodbye thrilling Asa's sumo (Yusho winner...) and hello Hakuho

[sekihiryu 51]

He is reporting that he was his decision to retire, but who is buying that? not me.

I am. He was set to survive the latest affair.

Definitely. In the intai press conference Takasago mentions it was Asashoryu's decision and mindset. He seemed sincere, and as far as I can tell he was never great at hiding his real emotions.

watching the NHK news now, some chap just said (well translated to English) the Kyokai directors "relentlessly pushed him to retire" ..... OK, so he made the decision himself but it was with a shotgun to his head.

[Asashosakari 18,968]

Oddly enough, about a week before the scandal hit I almost made my annual post about how the eventual retirement of Asashoryu would at least have the silver lining of permanently reducing the frequency of these "can't see the forest for the trees" comments such as the one by Arslan two posts up. Well, I'll say it now - please don't let the door hit you on the way out and I hope K-1 or whoever will enjoy your future patronage. And I'm sure there will be tabloids in Mongolia to keep you abreast of what your precious fallen hero is up to in the future.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Asashosakari

[Jeronimozo 3]

And the world will turn without you,

and history will soon forget about you.

(Nick Cave, Faraway So Close)

The second verse is completely wrong of course but the first one is not.

[kuroimori 1,634]

The flip side of that is that Asashoryu's continuous bad behaviour and scandals turns many people off. He did nothing to make parents think they would want their kid to join that world.

Whow! Wait a minute, don't confuse things here! I think the brutal murder of that poor young Japanese kid keeps parents from letting their children join sumo! What's Asa got to do with that?

[ryafuji 811]

Now let's hope that a new contender for Hakuho will arise soon.

Don't hold your breath...

[ryafuji 811]

The flip side of that is that Asashoryu's continuous bad behaviour and scandals turns many people off. He did nothing to make parents think they would want their kid to join that world.

Whow! Wait a minute, don't confuse things here! I think the brutal murder of that poor young Japanese kid keeps parents from letting their children join sumo! What's Asa got to do with that?

Nishinoshima said that, not Kozaru.

[ryafuji 811]

I guess it was just one scandal too many. If it hadn't been for the soccer fiasco - which let's face it was pretty minor compared to this one - he might have been able to survive. I didn't want it to end this way - I believe he could have gone on for a couple more years and won a few more yusho, though the magic 32 would have been out of range I think - but really he only has himself to blame. He refused to change his behaviour despite repeated warnings. Having such an ineffectual shisho probably didn't help either.

What I'll miss most is the Hakuho - Asa rivalry. There were some great matches and the contrast in styles and personality just made it all the more exciting. Hakuho must be shocked by this chain of events. Where does he go from here? Will he now just dominate, or will he maybe even go into a slump, as Kitanofuji did after the loss of his friend and rival Tamanoumi?

Edited February 4, 2010 by ryafuji

[Kintamayama 44,646]

As usual, the one day a year I'm away, and the biggest story in 20 years hits the fan. I'm devastated of course, but glad he's been put out of his misery, so to speak, for he surely was miserable these last few years. Being a purist, I don't condone anything he's done in the past, but when you're a fan, you' re a fan, regardless of how "ill" your guy seems to be.. I will miss him hugely, but when the dust settles, and after a while, we'll be back in business, minus the fans of the man, but not of the sport.

Sad day for me.

[Afrozuna 8]

No Taikai, no Asashoryu = boring sumo from now onwards

[Kozaru 0]

It's no coincidence that, for all the on-dohyo excitement Asashoryu brought, it never really resulted in strong business for the Kyokai, even after Hakuho arrived to provide a good guy counterpart...

Ummm, you sure that's why? I think other people will have different ideas, and have said so in this forum before.

I regret ever making the Takamisakari comment in my post. Erasing that, the question stands. Did Asashoryu sell more tickets than he cost them? If your answer is no, and if like Nishi you think that Asa turned people off, then we should be able to predict an INCREASE in ticket sales over the next few years with his departure. Is that right? It seems like the logical conclusion to the line of reasoning being presented. I'll take that bet, although I cancel it if a serious Japanese contender arises, as that obviously changes the circumstances completely.

In my opinion, it wasn't Asa turning people off or driving kids away. It's the men in black. (One of) The men in black ordered that kid beaten to death. The men in black inexplicably don't have a children's price for sumo tickets, or a family pass, or anything else that would encourage parents to bring their kids, or high school students to think it's affordable to pay their own way. The men in black say to little girls that they can be governor, Prime Minister or even Empress, but there's no way they'll ever be able to step into the ring to present an award if they are. It's the men in black, Scully!

How about selling family passes? Open up the entire back 3 rows as general admission and sell packs of tickets for an adult with kids at a discount price. That's how baseball got my dad to bring me and my brothers as often as he did. Fukuoka basho, I'm looking at you. Chiyo's gone and Kaio's gonna be gone soon, unless he gets his motherboard and power cell changed, so then what are you gonna do?

Edited February 4, 2010 by Kozaru

[ilovesumo 12]

What happens to the Fanta-advertising now....?

There is a children's price. 4-15years old, 200yen, cheapest seat.

自由席子供

(4歳～15歳) 200円

Edited February 4, 2010 by ilovesumo

[kuroimori 1,634]

The flip side of that is that Asashoryu's continuous bad behaviour and scandals turns many people off. He did nothing to make parents think they would want their kid to join that world.

Whow! Wait a minute, don't confuse things here! I think the brutal murder of that poor young Japanese kid keeps parents from letting their children join sumo! What's Asa got to do with that?

Nishinoshima said that, not Kozaru.

You're right ryafuji, thanks for pointing it out.

Somehow I messed up the quotes in my post - I am still shocked by the intai news

[Fay 1,677]

I always liked Asashoryu, though I wasn't his hugest fan. The blame is mainly to put on him and if I would like him as much as I like Kakuryu I would certainly find a million excuses for all his faults. But nevertheless I'm quite sad to see him go already. I will miss him but there is a lot more in sumo than just one (great) guy.

I hope he will build up a happy new life.

[Kozaru 0]

I guess it was just one scandal too many. If it hadn't been for the soccer fiasco - which let's face it was pretty minor compared to this one - he might have been able to survive.

I was saying to my friend that the Kyokai over-reacted to the soccer thing by suspending him for 2 basho. With this incident being more serious, they had to be harsher. So what about a longer suspension? How many basho? 4? 6? The problem is that if you suspend him for 4-6 basho, he ain't coming back, so it was an effective retirement notice. If they had suspended him for 1 or 2 basho, he might have stayed, but they make themselves look stupid for the 2 basho soccer suspension.

[Maguroyama 27]

Wow, there are so many aspects to this my mind just boggles... I agree with what Kintamayama wrote above. I mean, darn, Asa and Hakuho had one of the all-time great rivalries going on and it's so sad to see it go before it had to. And at the same time, Asa was a ticking bomb, at least ever since the soccer penalty. In a way, it must be a relief to many that the bomb finally explodes, no matter how boring sumo life will be. For a while.

When this year started I was wondering when the transition would take place that ALWAYS occur within the first couple of years of a new decade. In the 00's, Wakanohana and Akebono retired within the first year or so, and then Asashoryu started his climb to domination. In the 90's, it started with Chiyonofuji's intai in May 91, followed by the other three yokozuna over the next 12 months. Then the rise of Akebono, Taka, Waka and Musashimaru. In the 80's, four yokozuna/ozeki retired in a matter of a few basho in the beginning of '81, followed by the rise of Chiyonofuji. In the beginning of the 70's, the great Taiho retired and Wajima and Kitanoumi appeared.

I was thinking that this decade might start with a year that may see Chiyotaikai, Kaio, maybe Kotomitsuki disappear and possibly a schock retirement by Asashoryu, which should start the wave of transition. But I didn't think it would happen this fast... Hakuho will be a constant and may very well reach Asa's yusho total within three years. But who else? Even in the face of sad events, sumo is exciting...

And I still think this was a better way for Asa to go than being kicked out, gun to his head or not.

Oh, man....

[Kozaru 0]

What happens to the Fanta-advertising now....?

There is a children's price. 4-15years old, 200yen, cheapest seat.

自由席子供

(4歳～15歳) 200円

Oops, the general admission tickets.... that's a little embarrassing for me, but not completely. Problem with those is the line-up you have to do to get them on many days. It might be nice to be able to buy family tickets in advance so people can plan properly. Or family prices on a masu-seki, which is the preferred Japanese style it seems. And that deal still doesn't help the high school students, who often have their own disposable income and are not known as big sumo attendees. Sure you (might) lose a bit of money in the short-term, but it's an investment in your future fans and even future rikishi.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Kozaru