Day 9 results and day 10 pairings

[Doitsuyama 1,192]

The two yokozuna still are without a loss as Hakuho won against Chiyotaikai while Asashoryu beat Baruto with a kakenage. Bulgarian ozeki Kotooshu won against sekiwake Kisenosato for the kachi-koshi while Yoshikaze managed the same with a surprising blast against Wakanosato. Tochinoshin lost to Kakizoe and is at 7-2 now, the same as Toyonoshima, Miyabiyama and Takamisakari. Ozeki Kaio beat Tochiozan and is at 804 makuuchi wins now, the same as Kitanoumi and trailing only Chiyonofuji's 807 wins.

Tosanoumi is back in the sole juryo lead as the three co-leaders all lost today, making it a total of seven rikishi at 6-3, one win behind the 37 years old former sekiwake who moved into the top 40 all-time in career wins, the win today making it 695 and tying with Mienoumi (only four active rikishi have more career wins, most notably Kyokutenho who got his 700th win yesterday).

Day 9

Juryo

J11e   Tosanoumi (7-2)	 oshidashi	  J14w   Kotoyutaka (3-6)
J10e   Kirinowaka (4-5)	shitatenage	J13e   Kasuganishiki (5-4)
J9w	Wakakoyu (6-3)	  tsukidashi	 J13w   Hoshikaze (6-3)
J9e	Wakatenro (4-5)	 hatakikomi	 J10w   Daishoumi (3-6)
J14e   Gagamaru (4-5)	  yorikiri	   J8e	Jumonji (2-7)
J7w	Sakaizawa (4-5)	 tsukiotoshi	J12e   Chiyohakuho (5-4)
J12w   Shirononami (6-3)   yorikiri	   J7e	Kyokunankai (4-5)
J6w	Kotokasuga (5-4)	yorikiri	   J11w   Kiyoseumi (5-4)
J8w	Tokusegawa (6-3)	hatakikomi	 J4w	Sagatsukasa (6-3)
J5w	Okinoumi (3-6)	  oshidashi	  J3w	Toyozakura (2-7)
J5e	Kitataiki (6-3)	 yorikiri	   J3e	Asofuji (4-5)
J4e	Kaiho (2-7)		 isamiashi	  J2e	Tochinonada (4-5)
J1w	Hakuba (5-4)		sukuinage	  J6e	Koryu (6-3)

Makuuchi

M15w   Shimotori (5-4)	 yoritaoshi	 J1e	Masatsukasa (2-7)
M13w   Mokonami (6-3)	  uwatenage	  M12w   Toyohibiki (4-5)
M12e   Shotenro (5-4)	  watashikomi	M14e   Kasugao (2-7)
M11w   Takamisakari (7-2)  yorikiri	   M13e   Tosayutaka (5-4)
M10w   Kokkai (4-5)		yorikiri	   M14w   Kimurayama (3-6)
M10e   Asasekiryu (3-6)	yorikiri	   M15e   Yamamotoyama (1-8)
M11e   Tamawashi (6-3)	 tsukidashi	 M8e	Aran (2-7)
M9w	Miyabiyama (7-2)	hikiotoshi	 M7e	Tamanoshima (3-6)
M9e	Yoshikaze (8-1)	 oshidashi	  M6e	Wakanosato (3-6)
M5w	Kakizoe (6-3)	   oshitaoshi	 M8w	Tochinoshin (7-2)
M5e	Toyonoshima (7-2)   tsukiotoshi	M7w	Homasho (4-5)

M6w	Kyokutenho (5-4)	yorikiri	   M4e	Hokutoriki (4-5)
M2w	Tokitenku (2-7)	 ketaguri	   M4w	Iwakiyama (1-8)
M2e	Kotoshogiku (5-4)   oshidashi	  M1w	Aminishiki (4-5)
K1w	Goeido (3-6)		yorikiri	   M1e	Takekaze (4-5)
O2e	Harumafuji (4-5)	shitatenage	M3w	Bushuyama (3-6)
O1w	Kotomitsuki (6-3)   yorikiri	   S1w	Kakuryu (2-7)
O1e	Kotooshu (8-1)	  yorikiri	   K1e	Kisenosato (3-6)
O2w	Kaio (6-3)		  yorikiri	   M3e	Tochiozan (3-6)
Y1w	Hakuho (9-0)		yorikiri	   O3e	Chiyotaikai (2-7)
Y1e	Asashoryu (9-0)	 kakenage	   S1e	Baruto (5-4)

Day 10

Juryo

J14e   Gagamaru (4-5)					 Ms2e   Surugatsukasa (2-3)
J12e   Chiyohakuho (5-4)				  J13e   Kasuganishiki (5-4)
J9e	Wakatenro (4-5)					J12w   Shirononami (6-3)
J8e	Jumonji (2-7)					  J14w   Kotoyutaka (3-6)
J11w   Kiyoseumi (5-4)					J8w	Tokusegawa (6-3)
J13w   Hoshikaze (6-3)					J7w	Sakaizawa (4-5)
J6e	Koryu (6-3)						J11e   Tosanoumi (7-2)
J10e   Kirinowaka (4-5)				   J6w	Kotokasuga (5-4)
J5e	Kitataiki (6-3)					J9w	Wakakoyu (6-3)
J4e	Kaiho (2-7)						J10w   Daishoumi (3-6)
J7e	Kyokunankai (4-5)				  J4w	Sagatsukasa (6-3)
J2e	Tochinonada (4-5)				  J3e	Asofuji (4-5)
J3w	Toyozakura (2-7)				   J2w	Futeno (4-2-3)
J1e	Masatsukasa (2-7)				  J5w	Okinoumi (3-6)

Makuuchi

M15e   Yamamotoyama (1-8)				 J1w	Hakuba (5-4)
M12e   Shotenro (5-4)					 M12w   Toyohibiki (4-5)
M11e   Tamawashi (6-3)					M14w   Kimurayama (3-6)
M13w   Mokonami (6-3)					 M11w   Takamisakari (7-2)
M10e   Asasekiryu (3-6)				   M15w   Shimotori (5-4)
M13e   Tosayutaka (5-4)				   M10w   Kokkai (4-5)
M14e   Kasugao (2-7)					  M9w	Miyabiyama (7-2)
M7e	Tamanoshima (3-6)				  M8w	Tochinoshin (7-2)
M6e	Wakanosato (3-6)				   M8e	Aran (2-7)
M5e	Toyonoshima (7-2)				  M6w	Kyokutenho (5-4)
M9e	Yoshikaze (8-1)					M5w	Kakizoe (6-3)

M7w	Homasho (4-5)					  M4w	Iwakiyama (1-8)
M2e	Kotoshogiku (5-4)				  M4e	Hokutoriki (4-5)
M3w	Bushuyama (3-6)					M2w	Tokitenku (2-7)
K1e	Kisenosato (3-6)				   M1w	Aminishiki (4-5)
S1e	Baruto (5-4)					   M1e	Takekaze (4-5)
K1w	Goeido (3-6)					   S1w	Kakuryu (2-7)
O2e	Harumafuji (4-5)				   O1w	Kotomitsuki (6-3)
O1e	Kotooshu (8-1)					 O2w	Kaio (6-3)
Y1e	Asashoryu (9-0)					O3e	Chiyotaikai (2-7)
M3e	Tochiozan (3-6)					Y1w	Hakuho (9-0)

[Asashosakari 19,543]

My gratitude to Futeno for forcing the scheduke makers into more juryo/makushita exchange bouts with his return. Maybe they'll learn their lesson sometime.

[Sashohitowa 6]

My gratitude to Futeno for forcing the scheduke makers into more juryo/makushita exchange bouts with his return. Maybe they'll learn their lesson sometime.

Why inter-divisional bouts is so good/so important thing in your opinion?

[Sokkenaiyama 81]

Less banzuke logjams from having more promotion/demotion candidates fight it out directly.

[Asashosakari 19,543]

(Pet issue alert...)

Why inter-divisional bouts is so good/so important thing in your opinion?

Because we frequently see that both the lowest juryo and the highest makushita are doing well (in part because both groups have very strong incentives to do so), which means the makushita are prevented from moving up and can't even do anything about it if the torikumi makers don't let them. Maybe they'll fail if they receive juryo opponents, but at least it would be in their own hands. When it's only Day 9 and Doitsuyama can already write

The other Ms2 Surugatsukasa is falling behind at 2-3 and even two more wins probably won't get him a promotion as it doesn't look like many demotions from juryo.

something is completely broken. 4-3 from Ms2e simply shouldn't be such an obvious non-promotion that it can already be predicted a full week before the basho is over. And that doesn't even get into the real outrages, like Fukuoka going Ms1w 5-2 -> Ms1e a few tournaments ago because they didn't bother to have him fight even a single juryo opponent, and whoops, suddenly there weren't enough bad juryo records to make room for him. Or Kiyoseumi's ridiculous odyssey of Ms4e 5-2 -> Ms2w 4-3 -> Ms1w 4-3 -> Ms1e.

It's a matter of fairness to not close off the higher division like that, especially when the schedulers' neglect has seemingly resulted in the juryo inhabitants tailoring their approach to it and making things even worse. This basho after Day 8, there were 14 juryo rikishi in theoretical danger of demotion. 4 needed one more win to be safe, 5 needed two, 3 needed three, and two (the very lowest two, J14e and J14w) needed five. I'd be extremely shocked if anybody except the J14's fail to save themselves. Simple motivation and a bit of "we're all in the same boat"-ism will take care of everybody else getting their needed wins, just like it does with the ozeki squad. The only way out of that is to schedule the endangered juryo against opponents who actually have a reason to force them down, i.e. the makushita rikishi.

Basically, it's the exact opposite of what happens below sanyaku, where you have a similar "seal" (between makuuchi rikishi #16 and #17), but there the lowest guys in the upper group do badly and the guys from the lower group experience lots of positive banzuke luck without their own doing. That's just less of a problem because getting more than you deserve generally doesn't result in justifiable complaints. ;-)

Edit: Yeah, or what Sokkenaiyama said in 30 minutes and 3,000 words less.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Asashosakari

[ryafuji 815]

So that's 16 times Baruto has faced a yokozuna, and 16 times he's been defeated. For an ozeki candidate, that's pretty damn poor.

[Asashosakari 19,543]

Well with the promotion from makushita to juryo being arguably the biggest in sumo maybe the powers that be really want to be sure that those who make sekitori actually are at that level and able to hold on to it. Anyone can have a freakishly good basho but if you can put together two or three kk in a row at the top of the hell ranks you probably are good enough to survive in heaven.

The flipside of promoting only "eminently qualified" candidates is that you're necessarily keeping around no-longer-qualified incumbents. (Okay, now this is really starting to sound like the ozeki discussions.) Sure, they'll look superficially qualified in this specific case because they're not asked to prove themselves against the upstarts sufficiently often, but ossifying itself for the benefit of incumbents is hardly what Ozumo should be striving for at the lower levels. I guess it comes down to whether one considers a case such as, say, Dewanosato to be more of an inspiration to the audience and other rikishi or more of a burden on the orderly procession of sumo history.

At any rate, who cares if somebody "only" makes it to juryo as a fluke? For some rikishi their career highlight is a fluke sanyaku appearance, for others it's a fluke kinboshi, or maybe a fluke sansho, and for the unheralded masses it might be something like a fluke sandanme yusho. I'd always err on the side of more meritocracy, not less. You produce a certain performance, and you get your (more or less) commensurate reward, whether in the basho itself or via the following ranking. If that turns out to be the only time you were capable of doing it, so what? You still did it. Otherwise we might as well start telling guys like Surugatsukasa that they're simply too old to merit consideration for a sekitori spot.

(And just to head off one possible argument: Yes, opening up the lines between juryo and makushita can of course also result in fluke demotions, but as long as you're designing the process as consistently more open, those guys won't be any worse off in the long run, as they'll find it easier to get back up as well. Cordoning things off only protects the standing of those who don't deserve it on the merits.)

Also you know when someone is promoted for the first time there is such a fuss made in their hometown and heya. Sponsors have to be found. Tsukebito assigned. Koenkai formed. Kesho mawashi bought etc etc. Who wants all that for someone who is just going to drop back down one basho later and never make it back?

The guy himself, for starters? I've yet to hear of any cup o' coffee sekitori (or his supporters, really) who wasn't thrilled about getting up there just that one time or two, even if it was fairly obvious that it wasn't going to last.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Asashosakari

[Pippooshu 1]

So that's 16 times Baruto has faced a yokozuna, and 16 times he's been defeated. For an ozeki candidate, that's pretty damn poor.

I'm agree. But I think there's a reason about this. Baruto is the strongest rikishi for muscles use and weight also. But his sumo is static b'cause he cares to control his opponent in the place. Yokozunas, instead, use moviment, are so dynamic and more technic than other rikishies...and maybe Baruto pays pawn... (A sekitori...) ;-)

[Chinonofuji 35]

Also you know when someone is promoted for the first time there is such a fuss made in their hometown and heya. Sponsors have to be found. Tsukebito assigned. Koenkai formed. Kesho mawashi bought etc etc. Who wants all that for someone who is just going to drop back down one basho later and never make it back?

The guy himself, for starters? I've yet to hear of any cup o' coffee sekitori (or his supporters, really) who wasn't thrilled about getting up there just that one time or two, even if it was fairly obvious that it wasn't going to last.

Sorry for pulling this even further off track, but I've always kind of wondered what happens inside the heya when someone gets promoted to juryo. So, in addition to the above mentioned by Nishinoshima, inside the heya the wrestler immediately gets their own room, better food, better schedule, etc.? And then if they are demoted the next basho to makushita, are they immediately stripped of these same perks and sent back to huddle with the masses? If you were to go back and forth a few times, would the pattern be repeated each time? Or if you were in sanyaku and then went down to makushita, would you be a sort of "sanyaku emeritus" and keep some of your perks until it was clear you couldn't make it back to sanyaku? Thanks to those in the know...

[madorosumaru 7]

Also you know when someone is promoted for the first time there is such a fuss made in their hometown and heya. Sponsors have to be found. Tsukebito assigned. Koenkai formed. Kesho mawashi bought etc etc. Who wants all that for someone who is just going to drop back down one basho later and never make it back?

Yoshiazuma of Tamanoi Beya was promoted to juryo after many years "in the minors" but his tenure as sekitori lasted only one basho. Here are some entries from Tamanoi Beya around the time of his promotion.

Announcement of promotion

Congratulation on blog

Making tegata

Preparing kesho mawashi

Flying banner

Yoshiazuma was the first and only sekitori from Tamanoi Beya since Tochiazuma. He was also over 30 when he finally reached that rank. Tamanoi is a rich heya with plenty deshi. They could afford to have a big to-do about the "rare" promotion. Not every heya is so well situated. Nishinoshima is quite right. It would be a hardship for a poor, small heya to go through all that is necessary just so a guy could have "a cup of coffee."

Yoshiazuma lived "in heaven" for two months. Once the new banzuke came out with him back in makushita, he became one of the "Young Guys" again.

In a related story, when Dewanosato, who also spent one basho in juryo, received his first and only paycheck of his sumo career, he took his tsukebito out as it is customary to do. Normally, a sekitori would treat tsukebito to a yakiniku dinner or something like that but Dewanosato could only afford to take them to a sweets shop for "anmitsu"--an equivalent of a chocolate sundae. I remember because that news was plastered all over the media at that time.

[Washuyama 641]

So that's 16 times Baruto has faced a yokozuna, and 16 times he's been defeated. For an ozeki candidate, that's pretty damn poor.

I'm agree. But I think there's a reason about this. Baruto is the strongest rikishi for muscles use and weight also. But his sumo is static b'cause he cares to control his opponent in the place. Yokozunas, instead, use moviment, are so dynamic and more technic than other rikishies...and maybe Baruto pays pawn... (Eek...) (Shaking head...)

I think it's only a matter of time before he beats one of them. He'll learn eventually if he keeps the pressure on them from the tachi-ai he'll have a chance. That said, they are yokozuna for a reason and are not going to make it easy for him.

[Asashosakari 19,543]

Sorry for pulling this even further off track, but I've always kind of wondered what happens inside the heya when someone gets promoted to juryo. So, in addition to the above mentioned by Nishinoshima, inside the heya the wrestler immediately gets their own room, better food, better schedule, etc.? And then if they are demoted the next basho to makushita, are they immediately stripped of these same perks and sent back to huddle with the masses? If you were to go back and forth a few times, would the pattern be repeated each time? Or if you were in sanyaku and then went down to makushita, would you be a sort of "sanyaku emeritus" and keep some of your perks until it was clear you couldn't make it back to sanyaku? Thanks to those in the know...

My impression is that it strongly depends on the atmosphere set by the shisho and probably also on the size of the stable and the distribution of the rikishi along the banzuke. I'm pretty sure I recall seeing stories about the Kyokunankais and Asofujis of the world (not those exact guys, but those career patterns) where the occasional temporary drop to makushita didn't result in an immediate cancellation of all privileges. And certainly, something like being a regular makushita and highest-ranked rikishi in a newer stable full of young jonidan kids likely brings a certain amount of privileges as well, if not the same amount that being sekitori would.

In a related note, the other day I read that Surugatsukasa (yeah, that guy with the uphill battle to promotion now) has been unburdened of his normal chanko and tsukebito duties for this basho so he can concentrate just on his sumo. I doubt that's standard operating procedure, but perhaps Irumagawa-oyakata thinks it's certainly worth it to give a 29-year-old guy his best shot possible at getting "to heaven" just once, costs or no costs...

Edited November 23, 2009 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari 19,543]

BTW, since all the cynical talk about costs seems to insinuate that I'm somehow advocating near-randomness in promoting rikishi to juryo just to get a few more guys their fluke sekitori appearance, I'm talking more about cases like this. Is there anybody who thinks that Kyokunankai deserved that final juryo spot more than Sakaizawa, based on relative performances? That would have been a totally clear demotion for 'nankai just 10-15 years ago, but it's turned into a real paint-by-numbers scheme since then - he had 3 more losses than wins, he had 3 juryo ranks to spare to the bottom, so he stays, makushita results be damned. Kyokunankai didn't face a single makushita rikishi in that tournament.

[Orion 431]

Sorry for pulling this even further off track, but I've always kind of wondered what happens inside the heya when someone gets promoted to juryo. So, in addition to the above mentioned by Nishinoshima, inside the heya the wrestler immediately gets their own room, better food, better schedule, etc.? And then if they are demoted the next basho to makushita, are they immediately stripped of these same perks and sent back to huddle with the masses?

As somebody else has said, it depends partly on the master (and how old the heya is, with the traditions that go with a long history); but I have heard that a man who has been up to sekitori, even once, is never demoted to doing the really low-level jobs again, not matter how low he falls. Dewanosato is treated with great respect by the juniors, and he clearly regards himself as having the responsibility to teach the young ones. Men in this position may end up as trainers in the Sumo School.

This is why, when a man is promoted to juryo, he should go round all the other stable-mates who have helped him to get up there, by training with him and teaching him -- even if he has overtaken them. There are two sets of pecking order in sumo: the obvious one based on rank (which may change constantly), and a less obvious one based on the 'sempai-kohai' (senior-junior) relationship that depends on when you came in, and who was already there. (In Japanese society in general, this latter relationship is a very strong one.)

Orion

[Chinonofuji 35]

Thanks to you both!