YDC convenes

[Asashosakari 18,968]

Astoundingly surprisingly, two of the more prominent members of the YDC have openly stated they have no problem with the "guts pose" and one of them even went on to say that the dame Judy Dench -oshi were not such a big deal either. This , to me, is the big breakthrough of the basho. It seems even the upper echelons of the sumo intelligence are changing their strict attitude. I think the discussion so far hasn't pressed restart for this latest update. I wouldn't be surprised if Ms. Uchidate calls it quits on health grounds sooner than later.

Perhaps they're simply resigning themselves to the fact that a) there's a new guy in town (Hakuho) who's much less trouble, b) like it or not, Asashoryu is most likely on the slow way out anyway (I'll still be shocked if he sees his 32nd birthday as an active rikishi, and even getting to his 31st isn't a lock IMO), and c) banging your head against an immovable object isn't unhealthy only for foreigners living in Japan. Perhaps it's indeed a breakthrough, but I doubt it. Was there any dame-oshi this basho that should have invited significant criticism? I don't recall one. That "kick" against Tamanoshima was the only thing, and even there it turned out that the "flurry" of calls to the Kyokai office was more like...30.

[Kintamayama 44,646]

Was there any dame-oshi this basho that should have invited significant criticism? I don't recall one. That "kick" against Tamanoshima was the only thing, and even there it turned out that the "flurry" of calls to the Kyokai office was more like...30.

If I recall correctly, there were at least 4 if not 5 by Asa. Otherwise, why on earth was Chairman (co-chairman? Non-Chairman?) Ishibashi quick to say he didn't mind it?And as for "resigning themselves", that is not how they operate. We know they are a tough crowd to please. I personally see a change here.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Kintamayama

[Treblemaker 254]

I wouldn't be surprised if Ms. Uchidate calls it quits on health grounds sooner than later.

She can call it quits on coffee grounds, for what it's worth.

[Asashosakari 18,968]

If I recall correctly, there were at least 4 if not 5 by Asa. Otherwise, why on earth was Chairman (co-chairman? Non-Chairman?) Ishibashi quick to say he didn't mind it?

None blatantly after the bout ended though, unless I'm totally blanking here. Anyway, I'm interpreting it as simply putting emphasis on their "the guts pose wasn't a problem" pronouncement (basically saying that the overall "package" wasn't a problem this time), not making a specific pronouncement on any particular dame-oshi controversy of the current basho.

[Jonosuke 28]

Someone raised examples of others sports and sumo has some but so have other sports. For instance why a baseball manager cannot wear a suit like basketball or hockey managers? Why can't a baseball player wear a straw hat instead of baseball cap? Why do they have strict guidelines on bats and gloves and if they do not follow, they will be out of the game and get penalized?

Whether a sport or business, every organization has rules to live by and Ozumo's rules are that they consider the dohyo to be a sacred ground (you can do what Asashoryu has done in amateur sumo with no problem but they don't have a gyoji either, different rules, different cultures).

Asashoryu apologized because he knew he violated an Ozumo's rule. He understands the rules even some of us here don't.

[Kintamayama 44,646]

None blatantly after the bout ended though, unless I'm totally blanking here. Anyway, I'm interpreting it as simply putting emphasis on their "the guts pose wasn't a problem" pronouncement (basically saying that the overall "package" wasn't a problem this time), not making a specific pronouncement on any particular dame-oshi controversy of the current basho.

The kick in the back was worth at least three regulars.

[Kintamayama 44,646]

None blatantly after the bout ended though, unless I'm totally blanking here. Anyway, I'm interpreting it as simply putting emphasis on their "the guts pose wasn't a problem" pronouncement (basically saying that the overall "package" wasn't a problem this time), not making a specific pronouncement on any particular dame-oshi controversy of the current basho.

OK, Ok, you were right. Apologies. The dame-oshi bit was from an article from 8 months ago. I'm going somewhere far away now.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Kintamayama

[paolo 0]

I am more than puzzled:

Someone raised examples of others sports and sumo has some but so have other sports. For instance why a baseball manager cannot wear a suit like basketball or hockey managers? Why can't a baseball player wear a straw hat instead of baseball cap? Why do they have strict guidelines on bats and gloves and if they do not follow, they will be out of the game and get penalized?

Whether a sport or business, every organization has rules to live by and Ozumo's rules are that they consider the dohyo to be a sacred ground (you can do what Asashoryu has done in amateur sumo with no problem but they don't have a gyoji either, different rules, different cultures).

Asashoryu apologized because he knew he violated an Ozumo's rule. He understands the rules even some of us here don't.

Therefore I, as ignorant as I am, should understand that these rules are either written: "Thou will not show the guts pose" (I do not really think this can possibly be !) or at least so clearly stated and repeated many times that nobody can have doubts about them. Now.....

Astoundingly surprisingly, two of the more prominent members of the YDC have openly stated they have no problem with the "guts pose" and one of them even went on to say that the dame Judy Dench -oshi were not such a big deal either. ....

I repeat that I am an ignorant in many aspects of sumo. But if at least two prominent members of the YDC say the above statements, where are these "rules" so clearly stated ? Thanks for your help...

[Gernobono 463]

I repeat that I am an ignorant in many aspects of sumo. But if at least two prominent members of the YDC say the above statements, where are these "rules" so clearly stated ? Thanks for your help...

even repeating that you are an ignorant in many aspects of sumo does not keep you from making (in my eyes stupid) comments....

i would never use my boss' nickname in front of his boss.......this is written nowhere, but i am in this bussiness long enough to know that......

ass a shoryu knows that and apologizes.......end of story....

Edited September 28, 2009 by Gernobono

[paolo 0]

even repeating that you are an ignorant in many aspects of sumo does not keep you from making (in my eyes stupid) comments....

First of all let me thank you for the kindness of your very polite remark. I am sure that you will also be so kind as to politely answer the clear question that I asked, and that I politely repeat here for your kind convenience:

..... But if at least two prominent members of the YDC say the above statements, where are these "rules" so clearly stated ? Thanks for your help...

Let me explain you the meaning of the question: the "above" statements are:

a. "the guts pose wasn't a problem"

b. "the dame-oshi were not such a big deal"

These are two of Asashoryu's attitudes that have been often criticized by many, Ms. Uchidate first of all. I thought that it was obvious that they were "outside the rules". Now I discover that, as far as I understand from Kintamayama reports, several of Ms. Uchidate's colleagues, who are important and prominent people in the world of Sumo, seem not to share the same point of view. May I find this interesting and/or surprising and maybe puzzling ? Does that mean that the way we are looking at the two above points is, so to say, more japanese than the japanese ?

Answering just "ass a shoryu knows that and apologizes.......end of story...." is a bit too simple. So are the YDC guys even more ignorant than me ?

I thank you for your kind attention and keep waiting for your answer.

[Asashosakari 18,968]

I thought that it was obvious that they were "outside the rules".

Well, with due respect that's really been your issue for the entire five years you've posted here and on the SML - you're always looking for hard and definite rules, which simply don't exist in many cases. I honestly don't understand what's not to "get" about this, especially after it's been explained to you literally dozens of times on a variety of subjects: not everything needs to be written down explicitly for it to be frowned upon/agreed upon/considered valid/whatever. (Case in point: Gernobono's excellent example about not disrespecting your boss.) No, of course there's no "rule" that says "no guts poses allowed", but anyone who's been in sumo for as long as Asashoryu should know that it constitutes a level of emotional outburst that is generally out of place in sumo. I'm writing "generally" because obviously neither the Kyokai nor the YDC are a monolithic entity, which apparently is a concept you're continually failing to process. Sometimes different members will have different opinions; I fail to see what's so shocking or confusing about that.

But then, I've probably written nearly this same exact post in response to you at least three times before, so...

[Arslan 0]

In a few hours, but Ishibashi member has already promised that they will deal with Asashouryuu's guts pose, among other things. Another point of interest-Musashigawa rijicho promised to "deal severely" with Asa if he poses again back in January when the YDC members were demanding Asa's head for his spontaneous combustion back then, amid apologies and reflections.

In a few hours.

Was there anything else on their agenda or whole meeting was only about Asa's guts pose?

[Jonosuke 28]

Therefore I, as ignorant as I am, should understand that these rules are either written: "Thou will not show the guts pose" (I do not really think this can possibly be !) or at least so clearly stated and repeated many times that nobody can have doubts about them.

By expliciting stating that Ozumo considers the dohyo to be a sacred, I thought you may have gotten the drift.

If you are in a mosque, synagogue or cathedral, there are things you do not do even though they are not specifically written down. You don't go to the alter and get your mawashi on and do a sumo bout there.

I think Asashoryu himself said even in training sessions, they risk even their life every time they go up on the dohyo. It's that serious business to them. A part of sumo traditions come from Bushido, the way of samurai warriors, the bout is a struggle between two samurai with sword fighting with each other. When one defeats another, it may have likely meant a death to the other. With exception of the few like yourself, most do not want to do a guts pose after killing another honorable man.

[Kintamayama 44,646]

Was there anything else on their agenda or whole meeting was only about Asa's guts pose?

There may have been, but it was clearly overshadowed by this, as nothing else has been mentioned so far-It was a 2o minute quickie, they say.

[Peeter 15]

I'm very sorry about offtopic, but Ms. Ut

[Kintamayama 44,646]

After the dust has settled, Nikkan tries to give the accurate picture, with somewhat more accurate quotes from the chairman and Ms. Uchidate.

Chairman Tsuruta: "As an individual, my thoughts are no different than the Kyokai's or the average fans'. I did tell the Kyokai that maybe they should think about it.. A lot of people around me feel it wasn't that bad". He was the only one to openly "understand" Asashouryuu, although other members were heard saying it was OK by them too, off the record.

Ms. Uchidate:"Totally unacceptable. On the dohyo, there is one kind of behavior code, and it has to be honored. The question is, if the Kyokai will allow this kind of (bad) behavior or not. What the heck are they gonna do about it??"

Musashigawa Oyakata- "Are you going to bring this up at the rijikai like you said you would the last time?" "No. Don't make a big issue out of this".

Edited September 29, 2009 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama 44,646]

And even more-

Ishibashi ex-chairman: "We've got to prohibit "guts poses" by putting it in the rule book. If he does it for the third time, it would be a real problem!!"

In the heat of the discussions, some members were asking Ms. Uchidate if she hates Asashouryuu.

The reporter says if the Kyokai allows this kind of behavior, sumo will stray away from its title of "traditional culture".

[ryafuji 811]

I think I know why Musashigawa didn't immediately criticise Asashoryu for the guts pose. Last time he did that back in January, Wakakirin was busted for cannabis possession the very next day. Clearly he can't take the risk of something like that happening again (Being ninja...)

[Jonosuke 28]

In the heat of the discussions, some members were asking Ms. Uchidate if she hates Asashouryuu.

She never liked Asashoryu from the beginning. It's personal and it's chemistry.

She stated clearly that she was against the yokozuna promotion of Asashoryu and she has been telling us she has told us about the error ever since time and time again.

I also think it's a generational thing. There are more Asashoryu haters in senior age group as I see many younger fans who really like Asashoryu (for one thing they know no earlier yokozuna other than him so they don't have any standards to compare against). I think those who have followed Ozumo and have seen Kitanoumi to Musashimaru have more balanced view on Asashoryu. Kitanoumi was never likable yokozuna either while Musashimaru was more genial. More often than not those who are passionate about Asashoryu have never lived through another yokozuna era and those who find Asashoryu objectionable remember the good old days of Taiho and Kashiwado and earlier eras.

One problem for Asashoryu at least in Japan for the time being is more senior crowd watch and follow Ozumo than the younger set. It's either he outlasts them or they outlast him. Knowing more folks live longer in Japan than almost anyone else, Dorji is in a distinct disadvantage so it's for his own good that he reforms himself and conforms to the traditions and customs.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Jonosuke

[paolo 0]

Dear Gernobono, Asashosakari, and Jonosuke, I see I am wasting my time (and possibly everybody else's) on this topic, so I abandon it.

Let me only add some words about the dialectics involved:

a. I asked to answer my questions, in my opinion you did not.

b. Gernobono defined my words "stupid"; this is not a fair way to discuss.

c. Jonosuke wrote:

..... With exception of the few like yourself, most do not want to do a guts pose after killing another honorable man.

From what do you presume that I like the "guts pose" ? And, excuse me, what do you mean by "the few like yourself" ? In this context, it sounds like an insult... Is it ?

d. Asashosakari's post (in which he virtually says that I do not understand anything) paradoxally is the one that answers my question, because it says that "of course" there are some "unwritten rules" and

that "neither the Kyokai nor the YDC are a monolithic entity, which apparently is a concept you're continually failing to process". In my opinion it should be clear that I am not.

Actually the only real answer came from the reports on the YDC convention itself, which show more or less that the old chairman and Ms. Uchidate are very angry, and the new chairman and several others think that there is little or no problem.....

Let it be clear that I do not care a penny in general terms: my opinion is that if it must not be done, it must not be done; if it is debatable, it becomes a matter of "I like it - I do not like it" like one million other different things on earth in life and in sumo.

Now apologies to everybody for the lenght of this last post on this topic. Thanks for your patience. Enough is enough, fullstop. Quits.

Edited October 12, 2009 by paolo

[Torabayama 51]

In the heat of the discussions, some members were asking Ms. Uchidate if she hates Asashouryuu.

She never liked Asashoryu from the beginning. It's personal and it's chemistry.

She stated clearly that she was against the yokozuna promotion of Asashoryu and she has been telling us she has told us about the error ever since time and time again.

I was just wondering about the history here (I wasn't around at that time). Was Asashoryu a divisive personality even before he became Yokozuna? I'm pretty familiar with the criticisms of him post-Yokozuna but what were the general opinions of him prior?

Thanks.

[Jonosuke 28]

I was just wondering about the history here (I wasn't around at that time). Was Asashoryu a divisive personality even before he became Yokozuna? I'm pretty familiar with the criticisms of him post-Yokozuna but what were the general opinions of him prior?

I recall one incident in particular when he faced then Yokozuna Takanohana who had an injured leg at the time. I don't remember he was already an ozeki or still a Sanyaku. Anyway Asashoryu ended up losing the bout and after the bout, he told reporters he should have (purposefully) kicked the yokozuna's leg hard to get him to go down so he could have won the bout.

At the time he was not a yokozuna so there was no question about grace but he did raise quite a few eyebrows and showed that he had no respect to authority or anyone including a yokozuna. Of course now that he is a yokozuna, if other rikishi showed no respect he would make sure that they would know who is the boss.

[ryafuji 811]

I don't remember he was already an ozeki or still a Sanyaku.

That would be Asashoryu's debut tournament as an ozeki (September 2002).

[Azumashida 1]

Let those same people travel to the USA, and watch an NFL game, and watch the players who score touchdowns, and what foolishness they then demonstrate. That YDC member would be traumatized for life.

In the NFL they have their own Ms. Uchidate, Mike Pereira, who has pointed out several times that players who score touchdowns should not demonstrate such foolishness - many penalties are given for excessive celebration as a matter of fact. Here is an example of a "taunting" penalty from this week...

(sorry for off-topic)

[Jonosuke 28]

From what do you presume that I like the "guts pose" ? And, excuse me, what do you mean by "the few like yourself" ? In this context, it sounds like an insult... Is it ?

I don't presume anything. Did you presume Asashoryu like or dislike it?

As to your other question, all of us are brothers and sisters, never forgetting to bow before and after an encounter.

I never insult a sumo lover.

I think I am beginning to sound like Lord Mount Kinta.

Edited October 1, 2009 by Jonosuke