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Maguroyama

Why does Hakuho "suck" in playoffs?

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Hakuho - great yokozuna.

Wins in 2009: 71

Losses: 4

He's "just" one 14-1 basho away from beating Asashoryu's all-time record of 84 wins in one year. That would be an amazing achivement, especially in a time with two strong yokozuna.

So yusho this year should be at least 4, maybe even 5, right? But what is it? A meager 2.

Reason: he's been in three kettei-sen and has lost all three, twice to Asashoryu (who hasn't beaten Hak in a regular match since July 2008), once to Harumafuji.

Any theories as to why? It could just be conicidence, but it certainly looks like a pattern to me.

Personally (if one is allowed to express a personal opinion here, judging by the Chiyotaikai thread I'm not so sure), I hope Hakuho takes the yusho in November, he certainly deserves it.

And before anyone starts a flame war: by "suck" I don't necessarily mean that he displays bad sumo in play-offs, just that he loses them...

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Hmmmm, I know he's very calm and calculating, but maybe his nerves actually get to him sometimes? I remember him saying that he lost to Kotomitsuki in Nagoya because of the crowd's cheers...

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He lost in these ketteisen because his opponents won the bouts.

So if I were to ask, "Why did the opponents win in all three cases", your reply would be "Because Hakuho lost"? Wow, you're really a wiz at deep analysis. Seriously, if you think this thread is boring, why reply or even read it?

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He lost in these ketteisen because his opponents won the bouts.

So if I were to ask, "Why did the opponents win in all three cases", your reply would be "Because Hakuho lost"? Wow, you're really a wiz at deep analysis. Seriously, if you think this thread is boring, why reply or even read it?

What a quick and paranoid reaction! I had no opinion whether this tread is boring or not. I just said what I think without any depth of thought as you would suspect.

Hakuho did his best but the opponents were stronger at the bout.

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Hakuho - great yokozuna.

Wins in 2009: 71

Losses: 4

He's "just" one 14-1 basho away from beating Asashoryu's all-time record of 84 wins in one year. That would be an amazing achivement, especially in a time with two strong yokozuna.

So yusho this year should be at least 4, maybe even 5, right? But what is it? A meager 2.

Reason: he's been in three kettei-sen and has lost all three, twice to Asashoryu (who hasn't beaten Hak in a regular match since July 2008), once to Harumafuji.

Any theories as to why? It could just be conicidence, but it certainly looks like a pattern to me.

Personally (if one is allowed to express a personal opinion here, judging by the Chiyotaikai thread I'm not so sure), I hope Hakuho takes the yusho in November, he certainly deserves it.

And before anyone starts a flame war: by "suck" I don't necessarily mean that he displays bad sumo in play-offs, just that he loses them...

one answer yacho

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Falling to a guy finishing 2-13 made him lose this basho, not the loss in kettei-sen.

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one answer yacho

Well, yaocho is of course a possibilty, but this is an occasion where I don't quite follow the logic. Winning the makunouchi yusho is the most important thing in sumo, especially for a yokozuna. It also brings you quite a lot of money. So why would Hakuho take money in exchange for losing in a playoff? I might be missing something, so if anyone can clarify, please do so.

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Hmmmm, I know he's very calm and calculating, but maybe his nerves actually get to him sometimes? I remember him saying that he lost to Kotomitsuki in Nagoya because of the crowd's cheers...
There's the theory that the Mongolian rikishi have a gentlemen's agreement that whoever is up front after day 14 will get the yusho (if this can safely be arranged). In order to create some suspension (good for sumo) it will be arranged in a way that the pursuer after day 14 wins the regular bout, but the leader will turn the tables in the kettei-sen. This pattern held for both Asashoryu yushos in Hatsu and Aki.

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one answer yacho

Ah....I always thought there was a yokozuna backscratching club but too paranoia to believe it. There must be swamp lands in Mongolia they keep swapping after every basho....

I can't imagine how far Chiyotaikai had gone if he was born a Mongolian. What a pity. I hope he finds a bride soon.

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Hakuho isn't the only strong yokozuna to have a less than brilliant playoff record. Kitanoumi won only three out of eight in his career. (Chiyonofuji, by contrast, was 6-0.)

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I don't think yacho enters into this... the battle of the Yoks carries with it far too much scrutiny from all sides, not to mention the media and a gazillion cameras capturing every detail.

Hak's weakness may very well be his stamina. Back-to-Back bouts are extremely rare. Perhaps for some reason he's just not up to 100% for them. Thus said, the fact that the first bout was over so quickly played into Asa's lap. He obviously had some stuff left in the tank. Had that first match gone long, the playoff would also have gone long, as that would be in Hak's plans.

I liked the way Hak took the offensive in the first bout. By Asa's own admission, he had a lousy tachi-ai, and combined with Hak pulling a trick out of Asa's book and going right for the jugular, it was over in a blink.

IMHO, I think the playoff was perhaps the best match ever between the Yoks. I also think that Asa's constant movement neutralized Hak's ability to grab onto anything and make a game of it.

In the end, we see just awesome power, strategy and ring smarts from the old guy.

My guess is Hak takes the November basho, if that arm heals.

I also liked the Baruto slingshot. Kise's still flying somewhere......

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There's the theory that the Mongolian rikishi have a gentlemen's agreement that whoever is up front after day 14 will get the yusho (if this can safely be arranged). In order to create some suspension (good for sumo) it will be arranged in a way that the pursuer after day 14 wins the regular bout, but the leader will turn the tables in the kettei-sen. This pattern held for both Asashoryu yushos in Hatsu and Aki.

Can you divulge where this "theory" came from? It's the first I've heard of it.. Can I make a wild guess and say it originated in the "alternative universe"?

I'm curious, since I usually make these totally unfounded theories up, but this one is not by me..

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I want to go on record saying that despite being one of the main pushers of the ozeki co-operation theory (Day 15 Kotomitsuki-Kaio, *weak cough*), I do not believe that yushos are being traded or anything like that. It will take a much longer pattern of consistent results to convince me of that.

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Oh quite contrary, yaocho does not exist in vaccum or isolation, if it happens in ozeki ranks then it happens in yokozuna as well, as after all they were ozeki once.

Having read past missives from the other BB where aparently in the past yaocho has been so rampant that I could extrapolate at least 20 of Asashoryu's yusho were from yaocho...

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Oh quite contrary, yaocho does not exist in vaccum or isolation, if it happens in ozeki ranks then it happens in yokozuna as well, as after all they were ozeki once.

Once again Jonosuke, you fail to grasp the scope of the Ozeki co-operation accusation. I'm honestly not sure why this keeps happening. Nobody has accused Hakuho or Asa, or for that matter, even Haruma, of being involved in that club. It is not because they are Ozeki. Ozeki is not some disease that makes you give away wins to your needy opponent. (The last 2 sentences contain the information that you have repeatedly ignored in these discussions) These are 3 guys who are too old to legitimately hold the rank, and one youngster who needed a lot of help at first and has returned the favour.

So yes, it is completely possible for 4 Ozeki to help each other and for Yokozunas, who are different individuals in different circumstances, to not do such a thing. Especially with hundreds of thousands of USD on the line.

Assuming you still don't quite buy the Ozeki thing, did the result of yesterday's Kaio-Kotomitsuki match surprise you or provide you with any suspense at all? If it did, then you must think it was amazing that Hulk Hogan always managed to turn around a losing match and finish it off with that big leg drop while the crowd went nuts.

Edited by Kozaru

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you must be the kind of person who thinks it was amazing that Hulk Hogan always managed to turn around a losing match and finish it off with that big leg drop while the crowd went nuts.

I always wondered about that. Is it true that pro wrestling is fixed? If so, who broke it in the first place?

Sorry, the fast..

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Can you divulge where this "theory" came from? It's the first I've heard of it.. Can I make a wild guess and say it originated in the "alternative universe"?

I'm curious, since I usually make these totally unfounded theories up, but this one is not by me..

I read about this theory on Sumotalk (if that counts as an "alternative universe"), brought up in the Natsu Basho senshuraku report by Clancy Kelly. It included the following phrase:

"Bottom line is, I think they fight it out fair and square until the yusho race takes shape in the last few days, then, if things have taken a certain shape, they make contingencies based on potential outcomes."

Actually, I wouldn't be too surprised if things were handled that way, and I wouldn't be offended by it in the least. If they had an agreement that the yusho winner is already determined before the final bout, and then found a way to tell a story in an entertaining way, why not? I was always a little skeptical about the Hatsu basho kettei-sen (which was hailed as one of the greatest bouts of the century by Mike Wesemann on Sumotalk). It looked almost too good to be true, and just like today, it was preceded by a quick regular bout between Asashoryu (who was leading after day 14) and Hakuho (who had to clinch a kettei-sen by defeating Asa in their first bout). Of course, two bouts do not a pattern make, but handling things that way would be a win-win situation.

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I read about this theory on Sumotalk (if that counts as an "alternative universe"), brought up in the Natsu Basho senshuraku report by Clancy Kelly. It included the following phrase:
"Bottom line is, I think they fight it out fair and square until the yusho race takes shape in the last few days, then, if things have taken a certain shape, they make contingencies based on potential outcomes."

I want it on record that "I think" this is a load of crap, Clancey being a good friend notwithstanding. Nobody can know that-it's just Clancey saying "I think". It's not like there's a pattern like the OBSC. If Hakuhou would have lost outright, we'd be hearing he "let his Mongolian brother win the yusho" or some other crap.

Actually, I wouldn't be too surprised if things were handled that way, and I wouldn't be offended by it in the least. If they had an agreement that the yusho winner is already determined before the final bout, and then found a way to tell a story in an entertaining way, why not?

I can't believe you just wrote that. You, as a prime sumo fan, wouldn't be offended that the yusho is staged? (Sign of approval...)

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Nobody has accused Hakuho or Asa, or for that matter, even Haruma, of being involved in that club.

Because I don't believe in such club exists though I believe some sekitori are members of Freemason.

See my point is if they have to do it on the Senshuraku, why wait till the Senshuraku? Why not do it on Day 14 or Day 13 or earlier and get it over with it so he won't need to face 7-7? No one really has explained to me why they had to wait till the Senshuraku for all this to take place.

As far as no one has accused Hakuho or Asa or Haruma, well who is no one and who is someone accusing the other ozeki, just some individuals on this forum?

For the record the only real person at the moment in front of the court fighting a yaocho assusation is Asashoryu.

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Nobody has accused Hakuho or Asa, or for that matter, even Haruma, of being involved in that club.

Because I don't believe in such club exists.....

Well then, I hope the Kaio match was very dramatic for you yesterday. You must have been thinking Kaio was in big trouble, and this time he wasn't going to escape! *Leg drop* *crowd goes nuts* How many consecutive matches like this would it take for you to be convinced? We're at about 20 now. Would 40 do it? What about 80?

See my point is if they have to do it on the Senshuraku, why wait till the Senshuraku? Why not do it on Day 14 or Day 13 or earlier and get it over with it so he won't need to face 7-7? No one really has explained to me why they had to wait till the Senshuraku for all this to take place.

Let's see.... they do and have! When a guy needs more than 1 win, they take care of it early. If you've ever looked at the search I've done in the database, you'll see occasions in which it was taken care of on Days 13 or 14. But you also think they don't know who is coming up on the schedule for each other in the next few days, and know whether or not they're safe? We can do it, and it ain't exactly rocket science.

As far as no one has accused Hakuho or Asa or Haruma, well who is no one and who is someone accusing the other ozeki, just some individuals on this forum?

For the record the only real person at the moment in front of the court fighting a yaocho assusation is Asashoryu.

I think based on comments in this thread and in the current Chiyo retirement threads, you'll find that a whole lot of people know it. You might even find that you're in very thin company as a denier of an obvious pattern. If you get a job for the tabloids and write a story about the Ozeki, then they'll be fighting an accusation too.

Kaio's in really big trouble next time, right? I know betting is against the rules of the forum, but it would be so nice if I could relieve you of some cash over this.

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Just to remind everybody, here is the appropriate thread for the Ozeki discussion, with the latest results link included:

http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/index.php?...mp;#entry169568

http://sumodb.sumogames.com/Query_bout.asp...&winsopt2=1

We're now up to 15 (not 20 as I stated above) consecutive matches (not involving Hakuho or Haruma) in which the right guy has won. Jonosuke should note that not all of them are on Day 15.

Edited by Kozaru

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And Musashimaru was another who never had much luck (or concentration etc.) when it came to playoffs. I think it is a mental pressure thing more than anything else. Some hack it better than others.

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I read about this theory on Sumotalk (if that counts as an "alternative universe"), brought up in the Natsu Basho senshuraku report by Clancy Kelly. It included the following phrase:
"Bottom line is, I think they fight it out fair and square until the yusho race takes shape in the last few days, then, if things have taken a certain shape, they make contingencies based on potential outcomes."

I want it on record that "I think" this is a load of crap, Clancey being a good friend notwithstanding. Nobody can know that-it's just Clancey saying "I think". It's not like there's a pattern like the OBSC. If Hakuhou would have lost outright, we'd be hearing he "let his Mongolian brother win the yusho" or some other crap.

Yes, it's just Clancy saying "I think". But I did not find this thought to be completely outlandish.

I will do an analysis of similar scenarios sometime next week, and we'll see whether there are patterns or not. Probably, the sample size is way too small, but at least I can try.

Actually, I wouldn't be too surprised if things were handled that way, and I wouldn't be offended by it in the least. If they had an agreement that the yusho winner is already determined before the final bout, and then found a way to tell a story in an entertaining way, why not?

I can't believe you just wrote that. You, as a prime sumo fan, wouldn't be offended that the yusho is staged? (Sign of approval...)

According to that theory, the yusho is not staged, only the last two bouts. According to that theory, the yusho (both in Hatsu and today) were already determined by day 14 with Asashoryu being the deserved winner. I don't know if there is substance behind such a theory, but unless there is an obvious instance running counter to this theory, I will prefer to predict that under similar circumstances future scenarios will unfold in exactly the way they did today.

As to myself, I am not easily offended by sumo. Particularly not by who will get the Makuuchi yusho.

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I personally don't want to hijack this thread to a yaocho thread but my point is that a yaocho is organizational, not just dealing with one or two individuals, you will need two to tango and since a rikishi faces 15 other opponents you will need that many to tango.

Once an ozeki, one is always an ozeki. When Dejima retired, he became a former ozeki Dejima. If he wanted to stay on for a few more years, why he wouldn't do it because he is no longe an ozeki. What is so special about ozeki? Being Ozeki is not about the length of service. When Miyabi retires he will be a former ozeki too.

If one is in trouble and requires a yaocho, why stops at ozeki? When money changes hands then ones with most money will move the bouts and that's yokozuna. Whenever you look at kensho money board, ones with most money are yokozuna and ozeki and Takamisakari mixed in. If I recall he had a bunch of 7-8 records so why not go out and buy some?

What's the point of staying on forever despite all the pain and redicule told that you were no better than 8-7 ozeki time and time again? Both Kaio and Chiyotaikai have been at it long enough and their tenure as Kyokai member has been assured long ago. Why keep spending more money so they can barely hang on? What is the reason? They could have retired several years ago and their status wouldn't have changed that much if they are now working as oyakata now.

What are they waiting for? A miracle, another yusho by yaocho? If they can get all the yaocho bout, why not splurge and go for it all the way and buy the yusho and get it over with? So many whys and no explanations.

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