asashoryu vs miyabiyama

[Kaji 1]

Forgive my ignorance and almost complete lack of knowledge on sumo technique,

but that what Asashoryu did against Miyabiyama, was henka?

Kaji

[Sashohitowa 6]

Forgive my ignorance and almost complete lack of knowledge on sumo technique,

but that what Asashoryu did against Miyabiyama, was henka?

Kaji

To bad we don't have the "Henka Nominations" thread this basho...

[Asojima 2,874]

Forgive my ignorance and almost complete lack of knowledge on sumo technique,

but that what Asashoryu did against Miyabiyama, was henka?

A henka is usually considered to be a step aside with minimal contact. Asa did a step aside, but it was accompanied by a resounding head slap that probably rang Miyabi's chimes.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Asojima

[shumitto 419]

It was not a henka. A clear-cut case of henka is the one Takekaze executed on Homasho on day 2 this basho.

Obviously it was not the kind of tachiai you would expect out of a yokozuna, but Asashoryu profited from Miyabiyama's utter lack of balance to win it easily. Henka is the easiest possible win (or loss), what Ashashoryu and Kaio did today was a soft hit, and with the opponent stumbling, the pull-down was possible to be set in no time.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

The yokozuna opened with his usual left hand harite, and the slap moved an already very low and blindly charging opponent a bit off center. Asashoryu then very quickly shifted forward left, and avoided an unbalanced Miyabiyama, easily guiding him into the clay. While it may not have been "power sumo", it was a clear demonstration of superior technique and speed.

[Asashosakari 20,287]

While it may not have been "power sumo", it was a clear demonstration of superior technique and speed.

Odds that it would be described thus if Kaio or Chiyotaikai (heck, even Harumafuji) had done it: somewhat low, I would suspect. Seriously, while I hate to be "that guy", Shoryu's very first step already went aside. One may not want to call it a full-blown henka (and I'm staying the hell away from the question of whether or not it's befitting a yokozuna), but if that was "a clear demonstration of superior technique", Kiyoseumi is a regular technical marvel.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Asashosakari

[Treblemaker 254]

Well, if you want a great example of a true henka, go back and watch HF's move on Asa back in May. THAT was a henka.

This was nothing more than an example of supreme speed and technique in defeating a slow opponent. This move was so fast, and the timing so perfect that I had to actually slow down the video to catch the slap.

[nomadwolf 8]

Well, if you want a great example of a true henka, go back and watch HF's move on Asa back in May. THAT was a henka.

This was nothing more than an example of supreme speed and technique in defeating a slow opponent. This move was so fast, and the timing so perfect that I had to actually slow down the video to catch the slap.

Well, it is clear that there are varying degrees of henka, from a full-on JUMP to the side to smaller and smaller steps to the side.

The slap was fast and is good technique. The side-step, not so much.

In my [deservedly] humble opinion, you need to make some forward-moving contact not to be a henka. If Asa had hit Miyabi head on, and then stepped to the side as big M tried to push again, that's fair game. Now, there are degrees of "forward moving contact" as well, so it's still a judgement call either way.

[Jejima 1,498]

My first thought when watching it over the grainy live-stream was 'henka' - but I didn't have the benefit of replay. In any case, it didn't look like Yokozuna sumo to me...

[Washuyama 662]

The kimarite listed was hikiotoshi, which is the exact same one used by Asa the last two times they met (Hatsu & Haru '09). Don't recall any questions about those. But then again I'm getting old and my memory is slipping. (Sign of disapproval...)

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Well, each to their own. I liked what I saw. He moved forward at an angle, but there was no purely lateral or backward move. The results of a brilliant tachai versus a poor tachiai...

edit: He just won by tsuridashi today over Shotenryo.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Otokonoyama

[Asashosakari 20,287]

Sometimes I can't help but get the impression that some people are locked into some kind of binary assessment pattern, where every successful move is by definition either power- or speed/technique-based, unless it's a clear, five-alarm henka. Seems to me people are calling that slidestep-and-slapdown a nice example of technical superiority mostly because it was done by Asashoryu against Miyabiyama rather than, say, (and to belabour the point) Kiyoseumi against Asofuji, and as we all know Asashoryu is both a) faster and b) technically superior, if he didn't win through power it simply must have been through speed and technique. Other options too nuanced to consider? Seriously, if Asashoryu had wanted to demonstrate his superior speed and technique vis-a-vis Miyabiyama, he chose the just about least-technical way possible of doing it, even if it was a pretty clever one.

Rather than needlessly romanticizing what was a pretty bog-standard and frankly boring way to win (which happens dozens of times per basho without ever being described as "superior technique" if the participants are, well, anybody else), I'm much more on board with YBF's assessment over on Sumotalk, namely that it might indicate that Asa has entered the basho ready and willing to win at all costs. No problem with that, as far as I'm concerned. But it still wasn't good sumo.

[shumitto 419]

namely that it might indicate that Asa has entered the basho ready and willing to win at all costs.

This is very clear. Asashoryu spent an undue ammount of energy to throw Baruto away. If he were to keep it as standard and give his all by day 9 or 10 he would be completely worn out an able but to play once more the spoiler; seemingly conscious of that he will likely win of couple of bouts more with little to no effort to see how far he can go as a serious title contender.

[yorikiried by fate 2,038]

I'm much more on board with YBF's assessment over on Sumotalk

Now this is as much a letter of recommendation as I will ever get (I am not worthy...) , so the cheating bastard who was (among other things) badmouthing SF in the past switches from lurker to lurker with a name.

The emoticons are really nice here... (Nodding yes...)

[Jejima 1,498]

(Nodding yes...)

(I am not worthy...) I really like the cross-over traffic we are getting between the two 'rival' forums these days. The sum is greater than the parts and all that. I like to think that the rivalry in the various sumo games has brought us closer together.... (Whistling...)

[Babaryutaikai 1]

.

Just a bit OT - what magnificent video that is, Otokonoyama! I certainly don't get that from TVJapan on my rather large HDTV here in NY! Thanks so much! (I am not worthy...)

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Other options too nuanced to consider? Seriously, if Asashoryu had wanted to demonstrate his superior speed and technique vis-a-vis Miyabiyama, he chose the just about least-technical way possible of doing it, even if it was a pretty clever one.

Sure, he didn't pick the most exciting way to entertain the audience. He chose/reacted in a very martially efficient way to exploit Miyabiyama's poor tachiai in that particular torikumi. He was able to harite, pull his opponent's hand down, and shift forward at an angle to be perfectly placed beside and behind the behemoth should he need one final tap to crash into the clay. Flashy, no. Easy for the fans to catch the fast combination of subtle techniques and body positioning needed to ensure success and not a reversal of fortunes, no. But some with time in the kakutogi may see a method to Asa's madness.

[Jejima 1,498]

Other options too nuanced to consider? Seriously, if Asashoryu had wanted to demonstrate his superior speed and technique vis-a-vis Miyabiyama, he chose the just about least-technical way possible of doing it, even if it was a pretty clever one.

Sure, he didn't pick the most exciting way to entertain the audience. He chose/reacted in a very martially efficient way to exploit Miyabiyama's poor tachiai in that particular torikumi. He was able to harite, pull his opponent's hand down, and shift forward at an angle to be perfectly placed beside and behind the behemoth should he need one final tap to crash into the clay. Flashy, no. Easy for the fans to catch the fast combination of subtle techniques and body positioning needed to ensure success and not a reversal of fortunes, no. But some with time in the kakutogi may see a method to Asa's madness.

Now that I have seen the HD replay, I would argue that was always his intention. So, not the best yokozuna sumo IMO.... But I am usually wrong... (I am not worthy...)

Edited September 16, 2009 by Jejima

[Gusoyama 105]

I vaguely remember there being more than one of these moves in the basho where Asa had a 2.6 second average win time back in what was that, 2006? 2005? Nothing was said then, because he was simply the all powerful Super-Asa back then.