2 Yokozuna and 5 Ozeki is too many

[HenryK 38]

..... as it makes it near-impossible for someone S-M3 to put in a series of KK, beware of an Ozeki run. Especially when the unwritten rule is that an Ozeki always needs to get 8 wins when he needs to get them, and that this endeavour also requires the support of sub-O ranked rikishi.

Edited July 26, 2009 by HenryK

[Asashosakari 18,786]

If Baruto/Kotoshogiku/Kisenosato/Kakuryu/Goeido (and soon Tochinoshin and perhaps Tochiozan) stopped being such collective patsies, that wouldn't be a problem. Force out those surplus ozeki already by beating them when it really counts, and the problem will disappear quickly. It's tough for a broken meritocracy to get fixed when the ones who are negatively affected by it don't do anything to fix it themselves.

[Doitsuyama 1,173]

..... as it makes it near-impossible for someone S-M3 to put in a series of KK, beware of an Ozeki run. Especially when the unwritten rule is that an Ozeki always needs to get 8 wins when he needs to get them, and that this endeavour also requires the support of sub-O ranked rikishi.

I really don't understand your point. If 7 Y/O are too much why on earth do you desire ozeki runs? Imagine one run succeeding, then there are 8 Y/O which makes things only worse according to your argument.

[Jonosuke 28]

Especially when the unwritten rule is that an Ozeki always needs to get 8 wins when he needs to get them

That's the written rule as unless you get that on kadoban, you will be saying Hasta la vista mighty quick but the unwritten rule is that you are supposed to get 10 as below that you will need to start coming up with an excuse, well, more like myriad of excuses as perfected by the current two, Taikai and Kaio.

But in essence I agree five ozeki is just tad many as you'd like to see significant achievements from them as shown by Koto-ozeki this basho and Harumafuji last basho. If you have five, you will likely have a couple of bumbling deadwoods as we are witnessing now. As much as you would like to see them do well, in all intents and purposes they are there for their past accomplishments alone and their heya's membership campaign as with an ozeki in their heya, they can attract more supporters than without.

[Shomishuu 0]

Even if all ozeki were always healthy and performing reasonably well, I believe it would still be unrealistic to expect at least 10 wins from all of them, even most of the time. For example, in the 'perfect' world of two yokozuna and four ozeki, where everyone beats who they should beat according to their rank, two ozeki would be 12-3 and the other two would be 11-4 (i.e., all ozeki lose to the yokozuna, two of them are 2-1 against their counterparts and the other two are 1-2). So all the wins that are available to the four ozeki are evenly distributed.

That's in the perfect world, but in the real world it hardly ever turns out that way. At least once in a while (and realistically more often than that), one of the ozeki who would 'normally' be 11-4 is going to go 0-3 against his counterparts instead of 1-2. This puts him at 10-5 with no margin for error unless he upsets one of the yokozuna. Of course that'll happen sometime, but in an era of dominant yokozuna, not often enough to skew things over time.

He's putting on a good show and not embarrassing himself, but if he goes only 9-1 against the rest of the joi-jin, then he's at 9-6 and has been unozeki-like, if you buy into the 10-win minimum requirement for ozeki. Realistically, there just aren't enough wins to go around to expect 10 wins from each of the ozeki consistently.

The question then becomes, how often can an ozeki go under 10 wins so that he's not 'complainable?' Well, unless you expect all four of the ozeki to share equally those 9-6 or 8-7 'failures,' (i.e. expect an even distribution of the basho failures as well as the wins), then the result will be that some of them will be better ozeki than others, and it'll usually be the same ozeki who consistently fail at 9-6 or 8-7. And that's how it should be, and would be if the back-scratching would go away.

This is why I don't necessarily consider an ozeki a failure just because he rarely posts 10+ wins - there just aren't enough wins to go around for a 'lesser' ozeki to get this done a majority of the time. In a world of four or five ozeki, somebody's got to be the worst, even if they're all competent.

I do support the idea that 9 wins should be a minimum requirement for an ozeki to avoid kadoban/demotion. If it weren't for the back-scratching, I'd be very happy with the current requirements; but back-scratching is real, and takes precedence over getting that 9th or 10th win. I think that a 9-win minimum would eliminate it for the most part because again - there just wouldn't be enough wins to go around to be handing out freebees. It would also result in some rikishi losing and regaining their ozeki rank more than once - i.e., it would no longer be an entitlement. That would have the effect of not only improving the intensity of the sumo, but also the frequency and intensity of the keiko, which would probably shorten some careers... Oh my!

[HenryK 38]

..... as it makes it near-impossible for someone S-M3 to put in a series of KK, beware of an Ozeki run. Especially when the unwritten rule is that an Ozeki always needs to get 8 wins when he needs to get them, and that this endeavour also requires the support of sub-O ranked rikishi.

I really don't understand your point. If 7 Y/O are too much why on earth do you desire ozeki runs? Imagine one run succeeding, then there are 8 Y/O which makes things only worse according to your argument.

.... unless there is the occasional Ozeki demotion. Or retirement.

[HenryK 38]

Especially when the unwritten rule is that an Ozeki always needs to get 8 wins when he needs to get them

That's the written rule as unless you get that on kadoban, you will be saying Hasta la vista mighty quick but the unwritten rule is that you are supposed to get 10 as below that you will need to start coming up with an excuse, well, more like myriad of excuses as perfected by the current two, Taikai and Kaio.

You misunderstood (but I also wasn't clear) -- with "needs to get them wne he needs to get them" I meant there is an unwritten obligation for other rikishi to help struggling Ozeki get their 8 wins.

Edited July 27, 2009 by HenryK

[Jonosuke 28]

You misunderstood (but I also wasn't clear) -- with "needs to get them wne he needs to get them" I meant there is an unwritten obligation for other rikishi to help struggling Ozeki get their 8 wins.

Too bad some rikishi didn't realize the obligation in time for Dejima, Miyabiyama or Takanonami ...

[mazurao 0]

You misunderstood (but I also wasn't clear) -- with "needs to get them wne he needs to get them" I meant there is an unwritten obligation for other rikishi to help struggling Ozeki get their 8 wins.

Too bad some rikishi didn't realize the obligation in time for Dejima, Miyabiyama or Takanonami ...

In 2001, Dejima and Miyabiyama were both falling apart physically, there were beyond help. The current crop of deadwoods still can make it to the dohyo every day, and it is enough to continue to clog the rank. I hope that by the end of 2010 we can say thank you to them for their service, and see the last of them. This will certainly improve the banzuke balance, and relieve the promising young rikishi from their obligation to give a win or two to the old geezers.

[Jakusotsu 5,806]

The current crop of deadwoods still can make it to the dohyo every day, and it is enough to continue to clog the rank. I hope that by the end of 2010 we can say thank you to them for their service, and see the last of them. This will certainly improve the banzuke balance, and relieve the from their obligation to give a win or two to the old geezers.

That sounds like "I'd rather see anyone at Ozeki other than Kaio and Chiyotaikai", but when I look at the "promising young rikishi", I think I'd rather not. Can you point out anyone who has done consistently well recently? Best candidate would be Kisenosato, but he's still not beyond self-destruct now and then. I'd wager the number of kadoban wouldn't get any healthier right now.

[HenryK 38]

You misunderstood (but I also wasn't clear) -- with "needs to get them wne he needs to get them" I meant there is an unwritten obligation for other rikishi to help struggling Ozeki get their 8 wins.

Too bad some rikishi didn't realize the obligation in time for Dejima, Miyabiyama [or Takanonami] ...

Hard to live up to that obligation to an Ozeki who doesn't show up.

[HenryK 38]

The current crop of deadwoods still can make it to the dohyo every day, and it is enough to continue to clog the rank. I hope that by the end of 2010 we can say thank you to them for their service, and see the last of them. This will certainly improve the banzuke balance, and relieve the from their obligation to give a win or two to the old geezers.

That sounds like "I'd rather see anyone at Ozeki other than Kaio and Chiyotaikai", but when I look at the "promising young rikishi", I think I'd rather not. Can you point out anyone who has done consistently well recently? Best candidate would be Kisenosato, but he's still not beyond self-destruct now and then. I'd wager the number of kadoban wouldn't get any healthier right now.

If there are only 3 rikishi around at this stage who can continuously satisfy Ozeki standards, so be it.

[Chisaiyama 11]

FWIW, I believe the ineveitable entropy that is finally catching up with Asashoryu, along with the hopefully incipient retirement of Kaio after he sets his 98th basho record will get the upper rank logjam cleared up.

It was Asashoryu's incredible dominance of the sumo world that has ultimately been responsible for the so called OBSC. In a "normal" situation you do not have this kind of Yokozuna dominance. Even during the Chiyonofuji years he did not dominate to the point where an Ozeki logjam could form.

As Asa weakens and the younger Ozeki start smelling blood and they start making their moves as Harumafuji did in May and Osh did this basho and last May. We will see one Yok on his way out within I believe a year and possibly another gaijin Yok to replace him further culling the current Ozeki crowd allowing the more normal promotion/retirement/demotion cycles to get going again.

At the end of Taiho's reign there was a mini OBSC which was ultimately broken when, as Kitanofuji aged and no one else appeared to take the slack, the aging Kotozakura managed to break out of the doldrums and win back-to-back Yusho and get promoted to Yokozuna. This took some of the slack off of Kitanofuji and opened the door for first Wajima and then Takanohana the elder to make Ozeki and then Wajima went on to make Yokozuna and the cycles were repaired. We haven't seen another OBSC situation until Asa's performance so overshadowed all the other rikishi, both foreign and domestic that the ultimate promotion was denied them until Hakuho came along.

Still that possibly would not have been enough to open things up if Asa hadn't started self-destructing with the Soccer-gate scandal and his apparent mental meltdown that followed. With the subsequent suspension and concurrent lack of training and keeping in shape and continued mental morass he began the deterioration that has led to what appears to be the beginning of the end of an impressive career.

Now at last maybe things can get back to "normal".

Just my 2

Edited July 27, 2009 by Chisaiyama

[Jonosuke 28]

You misunderstood (but I also wasn't clear) -- with "needs to get them wne he needs to get them" I meant there is an unwritten obligation for other rikishi to help struggling Ozeki get their 8 wins.

Too bad some rikishi didn't realize the obligation in time for Dejima, Miyabiyama [or Takanonami] ...

Hard to live up to that obligation to an Ozeki who doesn't show up.

I always wondered how could one trick pony (well a big pony anyway) like Takanonamii ever got promoted to ozeki but now I know he was there to prove the absolute obligatory law of universe that he had to pay for the sins for all ozeki before and hereafter.

I will make sure to shake Otowayama oyakata the next time I (thud!) bump into him for you. No thanks necessary.

[Asojima 2,870]

FWIW, I believe the ineveitable entropy that is finally catching up with Asashoryu, along with the hopefully incipient retirement of Kaio after he sets his 98th basho record will get the upper rank logjam cleared up.

Your contention that there is a logjam is simply not true. There is no restriction on the number of active yokozunas and ozekis. Any rikishi who can consistently put together 12-3 or better bashos will rise to the top. No single rikishi can stop him. If there are a large group of mediocre ozekis, he will join them and eventually surpass them. A bunch of deadwood ozekis can play games among themselves, but that won't affect a true contender. If there is a very dominant yokozuna, the pretender will keep knocking on the door, and the kyokai will look for an excuse to promote him. There is no requirement that a new yokozuna must surpass the old yokozuna. There is no rock solid requirement that an ozeki must even win a yusho to get promoted. This is only a guideline.

The problem is that except for Harumafuji, there are simply no strong contenders for Ozeki or Yokozuna at this time. Don't blame the guys on top. Blame the guys who should be replacing them.

[Fay 1,677]

What's really boring is the same old discussion about the "old and mediocre" ozeki all the time, basho per basho. It seems in the moment there are only Kaio and Chiyotaikai left cause the Sadogatake boys had a brillant basho and they could redeem themselves.

I don't expect from the Ozeki to retire so that the young guys can climb up the banzuke. This is sport not courtesy. I expect from the contenders to make life so hard for the ozeki that they are forced to retire or go down the banzuke. When there is no real contender as Asojima says they have all the right on earth to stay as long as they want and as long as they can.

my 2 eurocent, and somehow I have the feeling I reiterate ... how boring.

[Chiyozakura 130]

my 2 eurocent, and somehow I have the feeling I reiterate ... how boring.

But he did it for the children! Oh, wait, different discussion from some time ago with similar repetitions. But I absolutely agree with Fay. These complaints are becoming more and more boring, especially with all the yaocho accusations you get here during the basho. You have one thread discussing how Asashoryu was unlucky to lose to Chiyotaikai because he slipped, which leads to all results being only pure luck, and another complaining about how obvious it was that the bout was yaocho. That does not really fit...

[Sokkenaiyama 76]

Right, here we go again... Chiyotaikai should have been demoted from Ozeki a long time ago. Hell, he should have been demoted after the last basho, right before Baruto decided to do a double Axel. That was so blatant that even the goddamn Kyokai reprimanded him. I agree that true contenders should beat these has-beens, and it's nobody's fault but their own if they can't (or won't), but keeping Chiyotaikai up there is an insult to the Ozeki name (not to mention it's not fair to the other Ozeki before him that DID get demoted). He hasn't been performing Ozeki sumo for quite a while now. As for yaocho... believe me, it be.

[Kintamayama 44,350]

What's really boring is the same old discussion about the "old and mediocre" ozeki all the time, basho per basho. It seems in the moment there are only Kaio and Chiyotaikai left cause the Sadogatake boys had a brillant basho and they could redeem themselves.

I think most of us mean Chiyotaikai and KaioU. Harumafuji is new, Kotomitsuki and Kotooushuu can always put up the numbers when they are healthy.

But, I say unequivocally and without reservation: Neither KaioU or Chiyotaikai are capable today of winning 8 without "help". Injuries, age, motivation, whatever: that's how I see it. To make it clear- I don't think it's yaocho or that money exchanges hands-it's a misplaced sense of respect and book-keeping.

But, as you say, we have been through that many times on this forum.

Which doesn't make it any less true.

Edited July 27, 2009 by Kintamayama

[Gusoyama 95]

It was Asashoryu's incredible dominance of the sumo world that has ultimately been responsible for the so called OBSC. In a "normal" situation you do not have this kind of Yokozuna dominance. Even during the Chiyonofuji years he did not dominate to the point where an Ozeki logjam could form.

I disagree with this. The kosho changes are what caused the OBSC. Go back to Tochiazuma's career, and look at how many tournaments he had that he dropped out early with 3 losses. He'd have been long gone as an Ozeki if he had to fight post-kosho change, or been in the OBSC because of all of his injuries.

[Randomitsuki 2,768]

I have added a poll about the never-before-addressed question of the circumstances under which Chiyotaikai and Kaio will eventually retire.

[ryafuji 807]

It was Asashoryu's incredible dominance of the sumo world that has ultimately been responsible for the so called OBSC. In a "normal" situation you do not have this kind of Yokozuna dominance. Even during the Chiyonofuji years he did not dominate to the point where an Ozeki logjam could form.

I disagree with this. The kosho changes are what caused the OBSC. Go back to Tochiazuma's career, and look at how many tournaments he had that he dropped out early with 3 losses. He'd have been long gone as an Ozeki if he had to fight post-kosho change, or been in the OBSC because of all of his injuries.

But Tochiazuma did fight post-kosho and far from being "gone" he twice regained his ozeki rank by scoring at least ten as a sekiwake - the only rikishi ever to do so.

l don't believe the current situation is due to Asa or the kosho change - we just happen to have three aging ozeki around at the same time who are happy to help each other out.

[Chisaiyama 11]

Your contention that there is a logjam is simply not true. There is no restriction on the number of active yokozunas and ozekis.

Actually there appears to an unwritten "rule", "guideline", "restriction", call it what you will, that there cannot be 6 Ozekis on the banzuke at once. I re-iterate it is, apparently unwritten, as I can not find any indication that such a "rule" exists but if you will look throughout the history of Ozumo you will not find a time when there were 6 Ozeki.

The closest was 1986 when Chiyonofuji was then the lone Yokozuna and there were 5 Ozeki. Between March - July, Sekiwake Hoshi put up Ozeki promotion worthy numbers including a Yusho. Unfortunately during the same period none of the 5 Ozeki managed to win ANY tounaments much less 2 consecutive, although apparently that was not necessarily the rule then. I say this because what they did was to promote the Ozeki Kitao to Yokozuna, where he took the shikona Futahaugro, becoming the only modern Yokozuna to be promoted without winning a single Yusho. Hoshi then became Ozeki changing his shikona to Hokutoumi who later went on to become Yokozuna also.

But you see there is a defacto logjam because they won't promote 6 Ozeki at once and now they have the 2 Yusho + hinkaku requirement for Yokozuna which came about in part because of what proved to be the untimely promotion of Futahaguro as he went on to never win a Yusho and because of bad behavior had to be asked to retire.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Chisaiyama

[Asojima 2,870]

Hoshi proves my point. If a deserving rikishi puts up the numbers, the kyokai will promote him. They make the rules and set the guidelines, but they can overlook them anytime it suits their needs. If Morikawa goes 6-1 for two consecutive bashos, they can offer him a yokozuna promotion if they want to.

[Chisaiyama 11]

Hoshi proves my point. If a deserving rikishi puts up the numbers, the kyokai will promote him. They make the rules and set the guidelines, but they can overlook them anytime it suits their needs. If Morikawa goes 6-1 for two consecutive bashos, they can offer him a yokozuna promotion if they want to.

You are going from the sublime to the ridiculous!

No, they cannot , as Morikawa is obviously not an Ozeki, and while they might be able to bend the rules on the 2 Yusho requirement, since technically it is 2 back to back Yusho or equivalent, the requirement still exists that to be promoted to Yokozuna you must be an Ozeki . And of course there are the concommittant rules for getting promoted to that rank which requires that the run up to Ozeki promotion begin from Sanyaku!

Do not be so naive as to believe that the Rijikai can just totally overturn all of their traditions. Believe me if it were that easy they would have created a Japanese Yokozuna by now and that hasn't happend and won't for probably at least another 1 1/2 - 2 years and that's if Kisenosato, Goeido or Tochiozan can get their individual or collective acts together by then.