Asashouryu's woes.....

[Wakatoryu 0]

Hello all,

Having been a fan of the Yokozuna for years, I am very disturbed to see him in his current condition. Is he injured still? (How did he get injured in the first place? Appears to be his left elbow or more?) His mind must be elsewhere also, having divorced his wife etc and whatever else. Of all the rikishi I have ever seen I would have never even dreamed I would be discussing such matters concerning him as his competitive fire has burned so much brighter than everyone else's for so long, has it gone out for good? I would have thought that with the promotion of Hakuho this would have at least ignited something in him again but it doesn't seem so....What is the reason for this? Is it all downhill from here? Such a shame, he was on such a roll to best Taiho's record and become arguably the greatest ever.............

Edited July 25, 2009 by Wakatoryu

[Takanorappa 88]

Judging by all the tape not only on his left elbow, but also the huge amount on his right elbow all the way to his shoulder, I'd put my money on a hurting body.

[HenryK 38]

I actually thought he did fairly well this basho. Impressive wins over Harumafuji and Kotomitsuki, unlucky losses because of slips and other mishaps. The only bout he clearly and neatly lost was today against Kotooshu.

Edited July 26, 2009 by HenryK

[Jonosuke 28]

If he is to stay longer instead of burning out his body he has to learn to take care of himself better. He has been around for quite a while now and his body is not what used to be with all the wear and tears he accumulated over the years. That means stop trying to hit his opponent's chin with his injured elbow or executing such risky move like a yagura-nage when his shoulder is hurt.

There is nothing wrong with taking time off between basho to heal wounds but he will have to get back to doing more training sessions so he can regain his sumo sense to finish off his opponents with the safest move in sumo, yori, and otherwise compete like Takamisakari with a different result. Despite rather light frame, he has been hardly badly injured recently despite he is getting up in the age bracket.

[Treblemaker 254]

Welll, IMHO,, I think he came into this basho ill-prepared. Lots of stuff going on outside the dohyo, not much practice, ribs probably still hurt from the HF slam back in May, chronically bad left elbow, an injured right shoulder - stuff that a younger athlete would play through and succeed. At 27, he's not young.

As we saw with Dejima, physically, this sport takes a real toll on bodies. This isn't golf. The bout is as much luck as skill, and with the right wind, planets lining up, the tide, all things taken into consideration a bout can be over in less time than it takes to blink.

Asa still has speed, knowledge and experience. The deciding factor in whether he continues to be succesful in this is ability to adapt to reduced strength, injuries that don't heal as quickly as they once did, and (perhaps the key ingredient) his desire to keep on going where he has to work harder in order to just stay the same.

Another question to ask of someone in any sport who's basically done it all, and for a long time:

What's his motivation?

He (reputedly) has money, businesses, he's popular (in both ways), he can essentially do as he pleases with his future. He doesn't owe the Kyokai and the sport of sumo anything. He kept it alive for several years, and even today, a basho without him is one where there's much reduced interest. Sumo needs him more than he needs sumo.

The day he leaves, there will be a huge hole that many pretenders to the throne will attempt to fill. Given the present cast of characters in Makuuchi today, I defy anyone to name one rikishi with the charisma, power, consistency, bout skills, drawing power and the undefinable ability to make things happen both on and off the dohyo to take his place.

Hakuho is efficient, strong, a commanding force within the dohyo, but utterly boring with the charisma of a fish. HF is just beginning to figure out what to do and how to get there, but a bit more flash than Hak.

I'd keep my eye on Mokonami. He looks like a keeper.

Asa could leave after Sunday's match and never need to look back. Sumo, on the other hand, would start to panic. Can you see the headlines if he decides to pack it in before the return to Tokyo in Sept?

So, if he decides to keep going, and not look foolish, he's got to arrive in much better shape. Otherwise, what we'll be left with is a vision of someone who was great once, but now is fodder for the likes of Oshu, Kise, Goeido, and a regular meal for Hak.

If I were him, I'd pack it in. While my body still has it's appendages intact. I'd kiss the Chairman, hug the Dragon Lady, and wave goodby to the Japanese press. Maybe break some of their car mirrors on the way out.

In my humble opinion.

[Asashosakari 18,968]

He (reputedly) has money, businesses, he's popular (in both ways), he can essentially do as he pleases with his future. He doesn't owe the Kyokai and the sport of sumo anything. He kept it alive for several years, and even today, a basho without him is one where there's much reduced interest. Sumo needs him more than he needs sumo.

You do realize that the attendance numbers were, with few exceptions such as Aki and Kyushu 2005 when he went for the consecutive yusho record, quite abysmal during Asashoryu's run as the sole yokozuna, right? His bouts may always have been exciting to watch, but at the macro level ozumo was boring with a triple O during his run of dominance, and general fan interest reflected that. That's not entirely on Asashoryu (Taiho had the same problem), but let's please not rewrite history here through gaijin-coloured glasses. Asashoryu may have kept sumo in the news, but "alive"? I wouldn't be surprised to hear that, even independent of all his various scandals, the Kyokai folks would have preferred to take their chances with yokozunas Kaio and Tochiazuma if they'd had the choice. Even if both would have missed half the tournaments with injuries and we'd seen an onslaught of 12-3 yusho scores for a couple of years. It could hardly have drawn much worse.

BTW, no matter how boring you may find Hakuho, the Japanese folks seem to be taking to him quite well as reflected by pretty much all surveys I've seen. (Nikkan had the results of a "name your favourite rikishi" one just the other week [an actual survey, not an internet poll]; IIRC Hakuho's popularity was nearly twice Asashoryu's, who was in close battle for second place with freakin' Takamisakari.) You're hardly the only non-Japanese fan to do it, but try not to generalize from your own apathy to the audience at large, especially the audience that actually matters (i.e., not us).

Asa could leave after Sunday's match and never need to look back. Sumo, on the other hand, would start to panic. Can you see the headlines if he decides to pack it in before the return to Tokyo in Sept?

Sure. 30% deferential, 50% neutral with a slight undertone of "oh, yeah, thanks for your services", and 20% "our long national nightmare is finally over". Panic? This isn't 2005 anymore. Uchidate may have jumped the gun with her "he's already retired to me" statement two years ago, but we're now inching ever closer to where the majority of the audience feels that way, too.

[Washuyama 638]

I still have the feeling that if Asa really wanted to, he could regain the position of "Top Dog." It would take alot more commitment than I think he's willing to give, but if the urge was there...

[Treblemaker 254]

...You do realize that the attendance numbers were, with few exceptions such as Aki and Kyushu 2005 when he went for the consecutive yusho record, quite abysmal during Asashoryu's run as the sole yokozuna, right? His bouts may always have been exciting to watch, but at the macro level ozumo was boring with a triple O during his run of dominance, and general fan interest reflected that. That's not entirely on Asashoryu (Taiho had the same problem), but let's please not rewrite history here through gaijin-coloured glasses.

...

.. try not to generalize from your own apathy to the audience at large, especially the audience that actually matters (i.e., not us).

And you're right in several points, and I agree that my own view is decidedly skewed, and different from the ones paying the yen to see fat guys rub bellies. Yet, I maintain that sport is sport, and sumo is a sport. Perhaps the native distaste for anything outside the lines is justified. After all, they created sumo. But sometimes, like being a member of a family, certain members are more appreciated by non-family members than those who are closer to the fact.

But beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Or Beerholder.

Attendance numbers may have been down during his solo tenure, but that may have also been a result of the lack of competition, not only at the top, but all the way down the banzuke. I suggest that if the sole yok would instead have been Hakuho during that time, perhaps the numbers might have been even worse. (History, like beauty, is also in the eyes of the beholder.)

And if stuff outside the lines is so distasteful to the paying audience, why is Sakari so popular?

Hak may be the most popular rikishi, (and I'm not a big fan of popularity contests - see recent two decades of U.S. presidential elections) but like others before him who were equally successful on the dohyo, his style is predictable. Boring. Triple O boring. Ok, he's consistent. But if you've seen one Hak bout, you've pretty much seen them all. The only time it gets interesting is when someone gives him a run for his money. Doesn't happen very often. So, any interest his presence on the dohyo generates isn't provided by him at all. His "wait and see what the other guy offers" approach is reactive sumo at best. Basically, he's a canvas for the opponent's weaker abilities and technique.

So, forgive me my foibles. The day Asa hangs them up might very well be the beginning of the end of my interest in sumo. Very few other rikishi have the ability to hold my attention, and none of them have the charisma to spark passion in the observer. None.

We'll have to wait and see.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Treblemaker

[Kuroyama 715]

IMO, one thing he has got to do is to start relying on competent modern medicine instead of folk remedies and magical hotsprings. His elbow could probably benefit from surgery, and as yokozuna he can take a couple of basho off to let it heal if he has to.

Hot water is nice, but it can only do so much.

[Jonosuke 28]

Long ago I had a thread of 97% of Ozumo or something similar. In a glimpse Sumo is very simple. A winner is decided when the other falls down on the dohyo or goes out of the dohyo. It mostly ends in seconds. So if you take all that as the whole interest in sumo, you are missing the majority of what sumo can offer but there is nothing wrong with that. You can take it anyway you want as it's what you are interested in.

A personal mangetism may be another. I am sure Ozumo will love to milk those fans as long as they last but in the end they know they come and go and they really cannot depend on these transient visitors for their long term prosperity. Heya and Kyokai supporters are there for a long haul and they are geniuenly interesed in sumo as a whole and in all aspects, they will be there for them unlike those whose whole universe centering around one particular rikishi.

So if Asashoryu goes and his die-hards go along with him, they may miss them but they just go on just like they did with any other rikishi and fans in the past, be it Takanohana, Akebono, Chiyonofuji, Kitanofuji or Taiho. One particular rikishi's career is just a blimp in their "modern" history of last several hundred years. They just shrug off those who may lose their interest in sumo after Asashoryu is gone and with them, his legacy will be soon a history.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Jonosuke

[Asashosakari 18,968]

And if stuff outside the lines is so distasteful to the paying audience, why is Sakari so popular?

Because he keeps his "attitude" (or whatever generalized term one wants to put his quirks under) limited to the dohyo. Why is that part always so difficult for Asashoryu fans to understand? Hakuho's learnt exactly the right lessons from Asashoryu...be as cocky as you want inside the arena, but don't rock the boat outside. I guess there are people in our celebritized culture who are bored by athletes who don't feed the gossip machine*, but I for one couldn't be happier with how Hakuho's career is turning out. Could he be flashier on the dohyo? Perhaps. But the mere fact that he's not engaging in tons of extraneous, distracting nonsense is enough for me to easily overlook that. Heck, boring yusho races aside I even quite enjoyed Asashoryu's run of dominance in '05/early '06 on the merits, simply because he dialed down all the outside stuff at least temporarily (easy enough to do when you're facing zero adversity in your main job, I guess). Unfortunately, as soon as actual, strong competitors came up and he couldn't cruise through anymore, the whole three-ring circus started right up again.

* You don't seem to be one of them based on your "sumo is a sport" approach to things, which is why I find your opinions somewhat puzzling, to be honest. I presume you're simply choosing to overlook all the outside distractions based on the 10-second awesomeness that is (well, used to be) Asashoryu's daily bout? If so, we're not far apart; I'm simply not giving him nearly as much leeway, exciting dai-yokozuna or not.

Perhaps there's something to the often brought-up point that Asashoryu's brilliance inside the dohyo is necessarily tied to his erratic nature outside of it. If so, he has a problem now - as I already insinuated early in the basho, if he's really turning into a weak 10-to-12-win yokozuna right now, he's only a few short steps away from self-parody, because that level of performance just doesn't go with displaying that same attitude outside the competition.

If so, he can either completely rededicate himself to sumo - because it will take nothing less than that with the current level of competition - or he can continue to spend most of his attention on business projects and stuff and fill the newspapers more with his private life than his performances, but then he's probably done as a regular yusho threat and he probably won't see his 31st birthday as an active rikishi, if even his 30th next year. That would be a shame, because he surely has something left in the tank, but I'm having my doubts that he's ready and willing to put in the hard work it'll take to realize that remaining potential.

At any rate, I'll just second Jonosuke on the issue of bandwagon vs. long-term fans. I almost hope all the Asashoryu-first fans do leave once he has retired, because I'd rather not have to spend the post-Asashoryu retirement years listening to strident preaching from "sumo fans" about how everything sucks now that he's gone. (I can think of a certain website that could well become the internet clearinghouse for that type of sentiment; that'll be fun.)

Edited July 26, 2009 by Asashosakari

[HenryK 38]

And if stuff outside the lines is so distasteful to the paying audience, why is Sakari so popular?

Because he keeps his "attitude" (or whatever generalized term one wants to put his quirks under) limited to the dohyo. Why is that part always so difficult for Asashoryu fans to understand? Hakuho's learnt exactly the right lessons from Asashoryu...be as cocky as you want inside the arena, but don't rock the boat outside. I guess there are people in our celebritized culture who are bored by athletes who don't feed the gossip machine*, but I for one couldn't be happier with how Hakuho's career is turning out.

I for my part feel personality-wise something is missing in Hakuho, as much as I admire his sumo. I do not imply that he has to become an Asahoryu off the dohyo, but if he could at least start give somewhat more substantive and thoughtful interviews, it would be a starter. Kyokotenho, Harumafuji, Baruto, even Kotooshu (when he speaks) are more interesting.

[HenryK 38]

One particular rikishi's career is just a blimp in their "modern" history of last several hundred years. They just shrug off those who may lose their interest in sumo after Asashoryu is gone and with them, his legacy will be soon a history.

... as all human activity is ulimately insignficant in the endlessness of the the universe.

[sekihiryu 51]

, his style is predictable. Boring. Triple O boring. Ok, he's consistent. But if you've seen one Hak bout, you've pretty much seen them all. The only time it gets interesting is when someone gives him a run for his money. Doesn't happen very often. So, any interest his presence on the dohyo generates isn't provided by him at all. His "wait and see what the other guy offers" approach is reactive sumo at best. Basically, he's a canvas for the opponent's weaker abilities and technique.

So, forgive me my foibles. The day Asa hangs them up might very well be the beginning of the end of my interest in sumo. Very few other rikishi have the ability to hold my attention, and none of them have the charisma to spark passion in the observer. None.

We'll have to wait and see.

nods head, when Hakuho was up and coming I used to like him, but he has become as you say "so dull" and now the way he keeps dominanting irks me, now I know how the Asashoryu haters felt when the champ was on a roll 3-4 years ago, winning constantly. I groaned when seeing the result yesterday. The look on Kotooshu's face as he departed the arena was the same look on my face. Hakuho has more "hinkaku" which purests must love to bits but it is shame he has the style of assembly line robot and the outward personality of a toaster.

When I went to a Jungyo

[kaiguma 0]

... I'd put my money on a hurting body.

Jonosuke implied this with much more eloquence, but I feel like saying it more directly:

Asashoryu's injuries are due to a lack of training. If he wasn't soft, he wouldn't get hurt nearly as often. Of course there is a limit to that comment, as heavy training can eventually lead to a snapping point like a rubber band under constant tension, but anyway... Asa had a lot of time off to relieve his tension, but he adopted a rather lax training regimen in the process. I think his heart is really not in it anymore. He speaks of an intensity that isn't expressed in his 10-5 record, but I think that intensity is sometimes theoretical in nature, like he believes it is there when it somnetimes is and sometimes clearly is not.

IMO, one thing he has got to do is to start relying on competent modern medicine instead of folk remedies and magical hotsprings. His elbow could probably benefit from surgery, and as yokozuna he can take a couple of basho off to let it heal if he has to.

Hot water is nice, but it can only do so much.

Hotsprings and such have always clearly been an excuse to go chill out in Mongolia and avoid the Big Bad Japanese Press. I'm not saying there is no benefit to them whatsoever or that Mongolia was always an escape for him - survival training and horse-riding and whatnot have all been intentional quests to reawaken his soul. But regardless, a large part of Asashoryu really wanted his job to stay easy. When a few sanyaku and joi rikishi relaized the gaps in his armor, his job got a lot harder, and he did a bit of running away from it.

[Treblemaker 254]

Just to set things straight, my interest in sumo came with discovering an Asashoryu video doing some research on sumo about 4-5 years ago. His style, ability, strength and flair hooked me to the sport. I then did as much research as possible, and discovered the possibility of following the sport live using the Kyokai peephole. I was hooked.

Living in Canada, you can be assured that sumo isn't on the late-night sports round-up. Of course my view will be influenced as a North American viewer, and the Japanese approach almost runs 180 degrees in the opposite direction at times. Going beyond the videos, I've become impressed by the nature and dedication of these men, the intelligence and planning that goes into such a short burst of energy where the smallest move can spell a win or a loss. At the Makuuchi level, pound for pound, these men are easily some of the world's most finely tuned athletes. Watching these guys work is a wonderful experience, one that I doubt I'll ever get to watch live.

To clarify further: What interests me is what happens on the dohyo. The private lives and tribulations and drug issues and broken mirrors does nothing for me. For that, all I have to do is watch any NFL or NBA team. There are enough crackpots in those leagues to keep most gossip people busy. So, it's the not the extracurricular stuff that grabs me. It's what happens between the lines that grabs me.

So, it was the passion, flash and bravado of Asa that caught my eye and glued me to the sport and culture. The very thing that I found so addictive and exciting and made me passionate about sumo is exactly the thing frowned upon (see reaction to the "guts pose" incident) by the very people who attend, run and are involved deeply in the sport. And, apparently, some people in this forum.

To me, Hakuho (for all his sucesses) is the epitome of nothing more than technique and skill (except when he fights Asa or, at times, HF), almost devoid of any semblance of emotion and passion. Efficient, methodical, robotic. To be the most popular rikishi in Japan because of that is something hard to understand from the viewpoint of a westerner. (Or, at least, me.)

The bashos where Asa was absent, either through suspension or injury, were of minimal interest to me. I'm sure to the purists, it could have been nirvana, but watching the same rikishi bumble and stumble their way up and down the banzuke, the ozekis using every aspect of their position to go through the motions knowing their ownership of position was secure, and knowing that Hak would walk his way to the yusho uncontested just made things much less interesting for me. Specific rikishi showed they were human (Ama, Sakari, Baruto, Shogiku) but nothing like Asa in his ability to inspire and convey the passion that is sumo.

Thus my comment that when he goes, of course sumo will survive another 800 years. Some people will be pleased to see him go, and be happy with elevator-riders, Hak pulling in the usual yushos, and a cool and methodical atmosphere will decend on the sport once again. For me, the search for another man with the charisma, bravado and ability to convey the passion for the sport will go on. Or not.

In my humble opinion.

[Shomishuu 0]

I really don't see how you can describe either Hakuho or Asashoryu as boring. They are both interesting in their own way. Nishi's description of Hakuho is right on the money, in my opinion. It's all good...at his present pace, he'll break Asashoryu's record for most wins in a calendar year. How good is that? Takanohana was also called boring when he was dominating in the 90s, and if he wasn't the son of the most popular ozeki in history, he would have been really really boring. Since Hakuho's current march is even more dominating than Takanohana ever was (although not by much), I guess that makes him even more boring.

But no one who is as polarizing as Asashoryu can be called boring. He can be called a lot of outrageous names, many of them true, but boring? I don't understand that. I don't care how pitiful the opposition may have been (argue all day about that, if you will), anyone who waylaid that opposition like he did for as long as he did, and in the numerous ways that he did, must be regarded as one of the most skillful rikishi who ever stepped inside the straw bales. One of the "all-time greats?" OK, go ahead and argue that, it is arguable. But the man ain't boring.

Maybe we would like our heroes to be that even-keeled, near-perfect and wise exemplification of whatever our own mind sees as the ideal, but some of them (and us) are often mercurial and pouty...it's true we're all human, as Asashoryu's fans are quick to point out. But neither should we expect those heroes to have a certain personality, as we're all different. That's really asking a lot, even of a yokozuna.

As for Asashoryu's place in history, I couldn't help but notice that on Nishi's list of the all-time greats (though I'm sure it's not complete - just the first names to come to mind), the most recent name on it retired 38 years ago. Surely the people he talks to can't be THAT exclusive? Well, those older than me, I suppose...

[Asashosakari 18,968]

As for Asashoryu's place in history, I couldn't help but notice that on Nishi's list of the all-time greats (though I'm sure it's not complete - just the first names to come to mind), the most recent name on it retired 38 years ago. Surely the people he talks to can't be THAT exclusive? Well, those older than me, I suppose...

If you're looking for somebody a little bit more recent than that, I'd offer Takamiyama. Surely not one of the all-time greats in pure performance terms, but the coverage of his recent retirement definitely indicated a strong reverence of his accomplishments. By contrast, I've never seen, say, Konishiki talked about like that, and I don't think it's purely because less time has passed since the latter's retirement.

I think Nishinoshima's on the right track...barring catastrophic events, Hakuho will reach a level of career performance that will place him among the very best ever, and he'll be staying with the Kyokai and eventually end up being a grey eminence and living legend like Taiho. Meanwhile Asashoryu will probably end up doing something to overshadow his ozumo legacy, whether negatively (like a busted pro-wrestling career) or positively (President of Mongolia or something). But you pretty much know already that ozumo will end up being only one stop in his life story, while Hakuho is most likely there for the long haul. If that doesn't make it clear why those on the inside of ozumo would prefer a Hakuho over an Asashoryu, I don't know what would.

[ryafuji 811]

I would love someone to explain how Kashiwado can make a list of ''all time greats'' while Chiyonofuji is left off. It's baffling to me when he was such a success for so long despite being one of the lightest rikishi ever. Is he really not held in the highest regard by the Japanese public (and sumo fans)?

[HenryK 38]

You do realize that the attendance numbers were, with few exceptions such as Aki and Kyushu 2005 when he went for the consecutive yusho record, quite abysmal during Asashoryu's run as the sole yokozuna, right?

The question is the counterfactural. We got a glimpse during the two bashos in 2007 when Asashoryu was banned, and attendance fell to all-time lows. The jungyos in which Asashoryu participated after his return generated more interest than the bashos without him. At the time, ozumo looked pretty dependent on the flamboyant yokozuna.

Now arguably and fortunately this would not be the same today, as Hakuho has replaced Asashoryu the as top dog, Kotooshu and Harumafuji seem have established themselves as serious Ozeki threats, and there are several interesting rikishi at the lower sanyaku ranks. But a claim that Asahoryu had not brought something to the sport that helped public interest seems improbable to me; even though the interest may have been for the wrong reasons in the view of some.

I for my part will enjoy the flamboyant yokozuna as long as he is around, which probably won't be for too much longer. Further, I hope - and am increasingly confident -- that by the time he leaves, there is a critical mass of rikishi to challenge Hakuho and keep yusho races competitive. If Asashoryu then rides into the sunset, so be it -- ozumo will do just fine without him.

Edited July 27, 2009 by HenryK

[Asashosakari 18,968]

The question is the counterfactural. We got a glimpse during the two bashos in 2007 when Asashoryu was banned, and attendance fell to all-time lows. The jungyos in which Asashoryu participated after his return generated more interest than the bashos without him. At the time, ozumo looked pretty dependent on the flamboyant yokozuna.

That argument is faulty in three different ways at once.

1) The soccer suspension coincided with the development of the Tokitaizan scandal, and that was actually cited by many people (observers as well as would-be attendees) for the sharp drop in attendance, not the suspension. You're free to disagree, of course, but the burden of proof is on you in that case.

2) A brief spike in interest following highly unusual events hardly makes up for a years-long lack of sustained attraction prior to it. By that logic, Asashoryu should have gotten himself suspended (or injured) a few more times during his career so he could make triumphant returns even more often.

3) The underlying argument is an apples-to-oranges comparison that is frequently brought forth by Asashoryu supporters to exaggerate his "business importance" to the Kyokai. The proper framework for comparison isn't a world in which magically everything else developed exactly the same way except that Asashoryu wasn't there, but one in which he was never there in the first place (or got himself dismissed early on, or whatever) and things developed organically into a different set of competitive conditions. There's certainly an argument to be made that the quality of the sumo in an Asashoryu-free world would have been lower, but one thing's for sure: we would have had vastly superior yusho races in the middle part of the decade. And if there's one thing that drives attendance more than anything else, it's the suspense level of the yusho race. (I'm talking about the effect on Japanese fans here who can actually attend and watch the bashos, so please no anecdotal stories about how many foreign fans the Asashoryu phenomenon has drawn in again, because they - we - just don't matter all that much.)

Note that I'm not blaming Asashoryu for having been so good that things got boring because nobody else could keep up - or if they once could, quickly settled into not giving a damn. But the fact that it was unavoidable on his part doesn't mean it can simply be disregarded altogether when discussing the Kyokai's bottom line performance. It's just a fact that Asashoryu wasn't nearly as much of a draw (in pure profit terms) for his career as foreign fans like to believe he was, based on their personal impressions; he may not have been one even if he had exhibited perfect hinkaku throughout his career, because the stars just didn't line up correctly for high-intensity competition during his prime. But the fact that it probably couldn't be helped doesn't change what happened.

Edited July 27, 2009 by Asashosakari

[Gusoyama 98]

Kotooshu and Harumafuji seem have established themselves as serious Ozeki threats

1 good basho a year does not a serious Ozeki threat make. Kotooshu has 7 bashos with 10+ wins in his 22 bashos as an Ozeki. Compare that(31.8%) to Tochiazuma's 11 in 31,(35.5%) and you start to see the larger picture. Is Kotooshu getting better? I sure hope so, and it seems like it. I would LOVE more bashos like this one, with 2 ozekis in the hunt well into the second week.

Edit: I mis-counted, it was 11/31, not 13. I guess Tochiazuma wasn't as much of a threat as I remember. He was definitely as injury-prone as I remember though...

Edited July 27, 2009 by Gusoyama

[Shomishuu 0]

I would love someone to explain how Kashiwado can make a list of ''all time greats'' while Chiyonofuji is left off. It's baffling to me when he was such a success for so long despite being one of the lightest rikishi ever. Is he really not held in the highest regard by the Japanese public (and sumo fans)?

Nishi's point is that what is lacking on the resume can be more than made up for in hinkaku. I actually recall seeing Kashiwado on TV in the early 60s and I believe there are several factors which MIGHT explain how some old-timers might think of him that way. First there was the Taiho effect. He and Taiho were promoted at the same time - I think there was a double Shinto ceremony, but I don't remember for sure - anyway there are a lot of images of the two of them together. The fact that they hung out together and were great friends didn't hurt either. Together, they constituted the Haku-ho era and spent almost eight years together on the banzuke as yokozuna. His personal record against Taiho was 16-21, a remarkable record when you consider how dominant Taiho was, and how much and how often Kashiwado was injured. It was obvious that when he was reasonably healthy, he was a dominant force. But he spent so much of the time physically beaten down that his record doesn't reflect that. But the folks who are my age and older mostly remember all his bouts with Taiho and how strong he could be when healthy. They remember him that way and also I think figure that many of those jun-yusho would have been yusho if not for Taiho.

Then there was his appearance, that indelible and true-to-life samurai visage (they talk about Homasho that way now, but Kashiwado was even more emblematic)...you just had to root for him every time he fought. That's how I remember him - I didn't always root for Taiho, but I always did for Kashiwado.

Juxtapose this recollection with Asashosakari's reference to Takamiyama in post #19, and it's pretty clear how Kashiwado might be considered a 'great,' even though his record doesn't really stack up. As for leaving Chiyonofuji off the 'great' list...I remember a conversation I had in 1985 with my wife's ex-boss, who told me he didn't like Chiyo because he made himself strong by weight-lifting, and not by traditional methods. I remember saying, "So desu ne," and so we had a pleasant talk...

[Arslan 0]

Hakuho too can be as friendly and gregarious as anyone in the right situation. The big difference is that he adult enough to understand when he isn't in one of those situations.

Hakuho can be generous? (Sign of approval...) In all past years Asa always donated money for different occasions in Mongolia. Never heard about Hakuho doing the same. I can

[Fay 1,677]

Hakuho can be generous? (Sign of approval...) In all past years Asa always donated money for different occasions in Mongolia. Never heard about Hakuho doing the same. I can