Sumo's Unbreakable records

[Gusoyama 93]

In an effort to liven things up, here's an interesting question: What record or records do you think will "never be beaten"? For instance, Cal Ripken Jr's 2636 consecutive records in baseball, or Roger Federer's 20 straight semifinal appearances in majors, or Byron Nelson's 18 PGA Tour wins in one season, or Michael Schumacher's 91 total career F1 win, or Wilt Chamberlain's 100 point game.

In sumo, some I can think of are:

Taiho's 32 yusho

Chiyonofuji's 1045 wins

Futabayama's 69 consecutive wins

Takamiyama's 1430 Makuuchi bouts

and there are more. Which of these sumo "unbeatables" do you think will last the longest? Which are doomed for defeat? I think that Takamiyama's 1430 MIGHT be broken, if Kisenosato hangs around. However, he'd have to hang around until late 2020, if my math is correct. 97 bashos is a LOT to be in Makuuchi.

[Sokkenaiyama 76]

I'd like to add Stephen Hendry's crushing domination in snooker, seven world titles and 36 titles in total (R O'S might just edge out the total centuries record, but don't count on that either). As for sumo... one more unbreakable record I can think about is Chiyotaikai's (currently) 61 basho at Ozeki. Also worthy of mentioning is his dubious kadoban tally (that can be improved too). Hakuho might come close to downing Taiho's major record, but time doesn't seem to be on his side, Chiyonofuji's wins are in no immediate danger and Futabayama's streak is likely to last forever. Agreed on Takamiyama and Kisenosato.

[Doitsuyama 1,173]

Well, if Kaio hangs around for two more years (which looks unlikely, but the same has been said two years ago), he had good chances to get the 96 missing wins or 157 missing makuuchi bouts to catch Chiyonofuji and Takamiyama. Takamiyama would be first as a 61% win rate (better than 9 per basho) isn't too likely. In fact if Kaio doesn't miss a bout, he'll overtake Takamiyama on Nakabi on March 20th, 2011. Kyushu 2009 will be Kaio's 98th makuuchi basho, overtaking Takamiyama to set a new record for that category. Barring an untimely intai of course.

Of course Kaio already owns an "unbreakable" record already. He does have the most makuuchi kachi-koshi by far with 72, having a whopping 8 kachi-koshi more than second-placed Kitanoumi 64; Chiyonofuji and Musashimaru share third place with 63. Takamiyama is shared 11th at 52. Kaio still needs five more kachi-koshi to break Chiyonofuji's career kachi-koshi record of 95 kachi-koshi as Kaio is at 91 now.

[Misisko 0]

I think Asashoryu's 7 consecutive Makuuchi yushos, will be something difficult to repeat as well.

[Mattjila 0]

Welp, just about any sumo record I can think of has been mentioned, so in regards to other sports, I'll throw out the name Dr Marion Tinsley. Dr Tinsley was as perfect as a human could be at checkers (aka draughts), and in 45 years of competition, he lost 7 matches, two of them to the Chinook computer program (which, since checkers is solved, is now essentially unbeatable). Anyone who won the World Championship after he retired was considered the second-best because while he was alive, he was the only best player.

(Although, in a way, since Chinook can't be beat, it technically has bested Tinsley in any possible category. But I'm still a bit species-ist. Go Humans!)

Edited June 22, 2009 by Mattjila

[Kaiomitsuki 408]

After reaching the Komusubi rank in march 1997, Kyokushuzan was in the Makuuchi division (never falling in Juryo) for 58 consecutive bashos without reaching the Sanyaku rank again !

Just Fontaine (France) scored 13 goals in one World Cup (1958) ... a record that will never be broken !

[_the_mind_ 0]

"Futabayama's 69 consecutive wins"

i personally feel this one is the safest. 4 zensho in a row plus 9 more wins(10 to beat it), if i didnt know it happened i would think someone made that up.

Edited June 23, 2009 by _the_mind_

[Kaiomitsuki 408]

"Futabayama's 69 consecutive wins"

i personally feel this one is the safest. 4 zensho in a row plus 9 more wins(10 to beat it), if i didnt know it happened i would think someone made that up.

3 Zensho in a row with 12/13 wins before and after the 3 perfect bashos and you have 69 or more wins too (Sign of approval...)

[shumitto 418]

Kotonishiki's 34 Sanyaku Basho without ever making Ozeki and the 7 years in between Makuuchi Yusho look 2 "records" not easily breakable.

Edited June 23, 2009 by shumitto

[Washuyama 634]

Konsihiki's weight?

[Chisaiyama 11]

Not to downplay either his abilities or the record but there are extenuating circumstances that lead to those 69 consecutive victories of Futabayama.

First of all in those days (mid to late '30s) there were only 2 basho a year, one in January and one in May. Also until May '37 there were only 11 days in a basho, in May '37 that was increased to 13. So here is how it went:

1936-01 M3E 9-2 Jun Yusho, he won the last 5 days of the basho

3 months "off"

1936-05 S1W Zensho 11-0

7 months "off"

1937-01 O1E Zensho 11-0

3 months "off"

1937-05 O1E Zensho 13-0

7 months "off"

1938-01 Y1W Zensho 13-0

3 months "off"

1938-05 Y1E Zensho 13-0

7 months "off"

1939-01 Y1E 9-4 he won the first 3 days of the basho

After finally losing on day 4 he lost on days 5 & 6, won 7 & 8 lost on day 9 and then proceeded to run off another streak of 29 consecutive victories. Then near the end of his career between Day 15 of Natsu '42 through Day 5 of Hatsu '45 he had another streak of 36 although that streak include two fusen-sho.

"off" meaning no hon-basho although I'm sure there were probably jungyo tours and certainly training. However with so much downtime between bashos especially following the Natsu bashos there was plenty of time for keeping in shape and healing any injuries occuring during the hon-basho.

With the current 6 basho a years schedule with only a month and a half between contests and with jungyo occuring between many of the hon-basho and with the public appearance scheules of Ozeki and Yokozuna rikishi it is nearly unimaginable that anyone could ever best this record. If asa could have wrestled under these conditions I don't doubt that he would have boosted this number considerably but 90 "regulation" bouts a year totally takes a toll on even a Dai Yokozuna. IMHO

Edited June 23, 2009 by Chisaiyama

[Doitsuyama 1,173]

Another unbreakable record - Kaio's number of broken arms with kotenage...

[Chisaiyama 11]

Another unbreakable record - Kaio's number of broken arms with kotenage...

Pun intended I take it?

[Doitsuyama 1,173]

First of all in those days (mid to late '30s) there were only 2 basho a year, one in January and one in May. Also until May '37 there were only 11 days in a basho, in May '37 that was increased to 13. So here is how it went:

...

I rather think those are the circumstances which made it more difficult. He had to be dominant over several years fending off several new guys while now you could get the same within a single year preferably with no new competition coming up. Also, 15 opponents obviously is MUCH better than 11 as the four extra opponents obviously are the weaker sort from M3-M4 or similar.

Futabayama had it theortically easier because back then was the ichimon-betsu-so-atari rule in effect, preventing meetings from rikishi within the same ichimon, a much bigger effect then the current heya-betsu-so-atari rule. But that didn't help Fuatabayama much as he met most sanyaku opponents anyway as they were from different ichimon.

[Asashosakari 18,648]

"off" meaning no hon-basho although I'm sure there were probably jungyo tours and certainly training. However with so much downtime between bashos especially following the Natsu bashos there was plenty of time for keeping in shape and healing any injuries occuring during the hon-basho.

Same for all his opponents though. In any case, Futabayama's top rank career (from ozeki promotion to retirement) still only lasted 9 years, totally on par with what the more modern dai-yokozuna achieved (10-11 years for that crowd of 20+ yusho winners), so it's not like Futabayama got any extra mileage out of the reduced tournament schedule.

And, in a way, having do it with only two basho per year makes it more impressive, not less - his streak stretched across three full years, after all. Anybody approaching his record nowadays "only" needs to be that consistent for about 10 months. Even the modern dai-yokozunas had enough ups and downs in their careers that it's hard to find a three-year stretch where one of them might credibly have duplicated Futabayama's feat, even accounting for additional rest. And that includes Asashoryu, who had plenty of 13-2 yusho in his career - what he did in 2005 isn't exactly a level he was able to sustain for much longer than that.

BTW, I think you're selling a bit short the amount of time and effort jungyo tours must have taken back then. After all, we're talking about weeks-long tours through utterly rural areas, with 1930s transportation and likely minimal accomodations and amenities, and lengthy appearances outside no matter the weather. That's not in any way comparable to today's 30-ish jungyo dates per year complete with hotel beds and events inside gymnasium halls at most stops.

(Just noticed that Doitsuyama said much the same thing as my second paragraph, that's what I get for hitting reply immediately...)

[Fujisan 530]

Hakuho might come close to downing Taiho's major record, but time doesn't seem to be on his side,

Every decade(Kitanoumi? Chiyonofuji,Takanohana,Asashoryu,Hakuho) we think Taihos record is gonna go but still we wait....

[Fujisan 530]

I have one I'm sure wont be beaten...

Kintamayamas 12.000+ posts.

[Kintamayama 44,165]

I have one I'm sure wont be beaten...

Kintamayamas 12.000+ posts.

Check again, Asashosakari is breathing down my neck, and as I'm quite older, will probably cease sometime before him.

[ryafuji 806]

Takamiyama's 1430 total makuuchi bouts may, just may, be broken one day but I'm convinced his 1231 consecutive makuuchi bouts will never be broken.

Also I doubt anyone will have the opportunity to match Haguroyama's feat of passing through the five lower divisions in just one tournament each, winning the yusho every time.

Edited June 24, 2009 by ryafuji

[Pippooshu 1]

Konsihiki's weight?

Maybe Yamamotoyama beats Konishiki for the heaviest weight in Makuuchi rank?

[Washuyama 634]

Maybe Yamamotoyama beats Konishiki for the heaviest weight in Makuuchi rank? (Whatever above, it is funny...)

He would need to gain 25-30 kg to do that. I think he's quite capable of doing it, but I don't think that would be in his benefit..

[Asashosakari 18,648]

Maybe Yamamotoyama beats Konishiki for the heaviest weight in Makuuchi rank? (Whatever above, it is funny...)

He would need to gain 25-30 kg to do that. I think he's quite capable of doing it, but I don't think that would be in his benefit..

Don't forget that Konishiki didn't really exceed YMY's current weight until later in his career when he'd already dropped from the ozeki rank. Yamamotoyama won't have quite that far to fall, of course, but I could sure see him hitting 280 as a 31-year-old maku-juryo elevator rikishi or something.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Asashosakari

[Frinkanohana 13]

Kaio has another record, which I think is also unbreakable. He has 85 basho ranked above maegashira. 15 more than second place Kitanoumi and Musashimaru (both 70 basho above maegashira).

[Asashosakari 18,648]

basho ranked above maegashira

Interesting that Chiyotaikai will be passing Chiyonofuji next basho...

[Yubinhaad 11,499]

A few contenders for hard-to-break records, if not unbreakable.

Most consecutive basho ranked in Juryo - Sawakaze, 39. The nearest active rikishi is Kyokunankai, 23 and counting.

Most consecutive bouts in Juryo - Hakuyuzan, 555. The last rikishi to even get close was Toyonoumi, 450, a decade ago.

Most tournaments to Juryo debut - Dewanosato, 114. Miles clear of the previous record held by Kotokanyu, 89.

Most tournaments to Makuuchi debut - Hoshiiwato, 115. Dewanosato might make a late charge.

Most consecutive bouts from career debut - Aobajo, 1631. No active rikishi in the top ten for this category, I have no idea who the nearest active challenger is.

Most consecutive bouts from career debut by a lower division rikishi - Hokutoryu, 973 and counting. A truly inspiring Ironman who has never made it beyond mid-Sandanme. Hiyoriyama (798) was the last rikishi to even approach 800, and he retired last year. Nearest active challenger is kubinage fan Tanno, 756.

Most career wins by an ex-collegiate rikishi - Tosanoumi, 676 and counting. Record set in 2009 Natsu, surpassing previous record set by 54th Yokozuna Wajima, 673. Nearest active challenger is a declining Dejima (593), then Tochinonada (574).

And maybe the only record that truly is unbreakable... Lowest rank held by a former sekitori - Ryumon, banzuke-gai.