Sign in to follow this  
Kintamayama

YDC convenes-Haru 2009

Recommended Posts

A. Hurray for Hakuhou-he showed great fighting spirit etc.

B. Asashouryuu-Gambarize-no bad words regarding dignity and actions out of the ring, No mention even of the fashion show.

C. Ozeki-bad bad bad-a call for reforming the kadoban rule. Suggestion- 5 kadobans and it's down to Sekiwake. Older ones will be "advised" to retire is another one . They were mostly concerned by the 2-13 achieved by Chiyotaikai. "It's not that participating is what counts..It's a question of Ozeki pride and dignity", complained Ishibashi member. Musashigawa rijicho subtly disagreed to any changes. "It's not that the Ozeki camp isn't taking it all seriously..", he said. "He wanted to go all out-he wasn't injured. He'll have to do better next basho, or else.. If you are an Ozeki for 10 years, you're bound to have some kadobans", explained Kokonoe Oyakata.

D. Kisenosato should gambarize. "We are all disappointed. All sumo fans are expecting a Japanese Yokozuna. He is well built, yet doesn't deliver. The fact his shisho doesn't let him go for degeiko (really?) doesn't help either", said YDC members, in a rare mention of a sanyaku rikishi.

Edited by Kintamayama

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hip hip hurray for 'C'. It probqbly won't happen any time soon, but I'd like to see kadoban disappear altogether.

A MK should be followed by DD to retain the rank of Ozeki. Or perhaps just a limited number of Ozeki career kadoban.

Hanging on to Ozeki rank by going from KK to MK to KK indefinitely is a bit disgraceful imo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
D. Kisenosato should gambarize. "We are all disappointed. All sumo fans are expecting a Japanese Yokozuna. He is well built, yet doesn't deliver.

I'd rather place my bet on Goeido for the next Japanese yokozuna. Kisenosato is just too inconsistent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hip hip hurray for 'C'. It probqbly won't happen any time soon, but I'd like to see kadoban disappear altogether.

A MK should be followed by DD to retain the rank of Ozeki. Or perhaps just a limited number of Ozeki career kadoban.

Hanging on to Ozeki rank by going from KK to MK to KK indefinitely is a bit disgraceful imo.

Eh, I like having some kadoban. Actually, I think a flat 5-kadoban isn't quite right either. It's different if you've been an Ozeki for 2 years or 5 years. I think 3 in any 2-year period or 5 in 3-years, or something of the sort. It allows for small slips, and also gives Ozeki time to recover from injuries.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hip hip hurray for 'C'. It probqbly won't happen any time soon, but I'd like to see kadoban disappear altogether.

A MK should be followed by DD to retain the rank of Ozeki. Or perhaps just a limited number of Ozeki career kadoban.

Hanging on to Ozeki rank by going from KK to MK to KK indefinitely is a bit disgraceful imo.

It's funny how people got confused because of one really bad basho by an Ozeki. There is currently no Ozeki hanging on his rank by going from KK to MK to KK and never was for quite some time. This basho was Chiyo's 2nd mk basho since 2008.03 while Kotomitsuki, Kaio and Kotooshu all were Kadoban only once in the last seven basho. I think the Ozeki situation was much more problematic in 2005 when both Chiyo and Kaio used to have one 0(to 5)-x-x MK followed by a KK (but always DD)...

As for the YDC "solution" with a demotion after 5 MK as Ozeki - it's complete nonsense of course as you can't stay Ozeki for long then (maybe if you stay healthy all the time). Both Chiyo and Kaio would already have lost their rank in 2003 with that rule and while I wasn't always happy with their Sumo since then, Ozumo definitely would have missed two of the greatest and longest Ozeki careers and two great sportsmen and true fighters...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As for the YDC "solution" with a demotion after 5 MK as Ozeki - it's complete nonsense of course as you can't stay Ozeki for long then (maybe if you stay healthy all the time). Both Chiyo and Kaio would already have lost their rank in 2003 with that rule and while I wasn't always happy with their Sumo since then, Ozumo definitely would have missed two of the greatest and longest Ozeki careers and two great sportsmen and true fighters...

But why should they be able to hold on for so long? For a Sekiwake it's immediate exit after a MK.

Look at the stats:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai%C5%8D_Hiroyuki

Kaio is just scraping by on 8-7 KK.

I have a lot of respect for Kaio and his achievements, but since 2006 he hasn't done anything noteworthy, other than hanging on by the bares minimum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But why should they be able to hold on for so long? For a Sekiwake it's immediate exit after a MK.

Look at the stats:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai%C5%8D_Hiroyuki

Kaio is just scraping by on 8-7 KK.

I have a lot of respect for Kaio and his achievements, but since 2006 he hasn't done anything noteworthy, other than hanging on by the bares minimum.

Well, why should a yokozuna be able to sit out 7 whole basho without being forced to retire? Because ozeki and yokozuna are special ranks based not only on your current form but also on past achievements, ranks that give you certain privileges and that are protected stronger than the other banzuke positions.

I don't think any of the current ozeki is hanging on by the bares minimum. Look at Kaios six consecutive KK between Kyushu 2007 and Aki Basho last year for example: for an injury plagued 36 year old rikishi it is quite an achievement to have such a streak against the best opponents - while he had not a single DD basho, he started these tournaments 8-6, 8-4, 8-3, 8-5, 8-4, 8-4, which shows that he still handles his maegashira, komusubi and sekiwake counterparts quite well. That he is not able to compete for a yusho anymore doesn't mean he is not worth his rank IMHO - after all we have two extraordinary yokozuna, 4 other ozeki and a lot of young, strong lower sanyaku and maegashira-joi at the moment...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't think any of the current ozeki is hanging on by the bares minimum. Look at Kaios six consecutive KK between Kyushu 2007 and Aki Basho last year for example: for an injury plagued 36 year old rikishi it is quite an achievement to have such a streak against the best opponents - while he had not a single DD basho, he started these tournaments 8-6, 8-4, 8-3, 8-5, 8-4, 8-4, which shows that he still handles his maegashira, komusubi and sekiwake counterparts quite well. That he is not able to compete for a yusho anymore doesn't mean he is not worth his rank IMHO - after all we have two extraordinary yokozuna, 4 other ozeki and a lot of young, strong lower sanyaku and maegashira-joi at the moment...

Yes, as I said in another thread - Kaio and Kotooshu still have strength ratings at ozeki level, albeit at the lower end of the spectrum. Calling for Kaio's head based on recent strength alone is not very sensible I think as there have been lots of worse ozeki (who usually lost their rank quickly). Now Chiyotaikai's current strength rating is not looking good of course...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suppose I should be happy that at least the YDC agrees with me that not just yokozuna should have their feet held to the public fire but also the ozeki, but as usual the accompanying suggestion for changing the kadoban system is...eh, not so good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the ozeki kadoban discussion is warranted and I'd hope the initial suggestions were there merely to improve upon rather than to choose from. I think a total of 5 kadoban is a very harsh demotion rule given the difficulty in getting to ozeki. Perhaps 5 kadobans over a given time period of X basho. That way you would likely only be demoting people who were just not up to it or those who were developing a regular pattern of kadoban (i.e. getting towards the end of their careers like Chiyo now).

I know change is not often looked upon kindly, but it has happened before and if the current crop of ozeki continue to have people in their ranks who regularly MK then the discussion is going to climb higher and higher through the sumo ranks.

I'd be interested to hear possible solutions to the problem from the more experienced followers in here. The premise being that there WILL be a change to maintaining your ozeki rank based on more stringent performance guidelines and YOU (the poster) have to decide what that change would be..... have at it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
D. Kisenosato should gambarize. "We are all disappointed. All sumo fans are expecting a Japanese Yokozuna. He is well built, yet doesn't deliver. The fact his shisho doesn't let him go for degeiko (really?) doesn't help either", said YDC members, in a rare mention of a sanyaku rikishi.

Looks like the mid-basho articles (which have mostly scrolled out of the news archives now) weren't posted here, so I'll steal from the Sumotalk news page for a moment:

In a seldom seen move, sumo's commissioner, Musashigawa Rijicho, criticized the Naruto-beya yesterday for the stable master's stance of not sending his rikishi out for de-geiko. The focus turned to Sekiwake Kisenosato and whether or not he was getting sufficient practice with top-ranked rikishi. "If this wall continues to stay in place, he will end his career at this level. He needs to go out for de-geiko," the commissioner commented. ...

When Naruto-oyakata was apprised of the commissioner's comments, he held firm in his stance saying, "De-geiko is not a consideration. My guys have exhibitions to practice, and they can watch tape to study their opponents."

Zakzak fleshed things out a bit the other day, relaying an anecdote about ex-Takanosato - apparently back in 1981 (still as a lower sanyaku), fed up that he couldn't consistently compete with Chiyonofuji, he locked himself up with no food but lots of videotape of Chiyo's bouts and studied it over and over to look for a good approach against him, so much that even the VCR equipment broke from overuse. It paid off as he proceeded to beat him eight straight times starting from Nagoya 1981, which may have shaped his opinions about the necessity (rather, lack of it) to actually go out and study your opponents on the dohyo.

Edited by Asashosakari

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that the whole idea behind YDC comments is that an Ozeki should be able to compete for the basho at least sometimes, or anyway give a good performance, above kachikoshi. This means that an 8-7 kachikoshi is not considered a good performance by an Ozeki; otherwise a year with six 8-7 results should be condidered a year worthy of an Ozeki, which is clearly not the case. Therefore, just as a starting point, one could say: 1. an Ozeki cannot recover from kadoban three times in a row; that is if he is makekoshi, then kachikoshi, then makekoshi, then kachikoshi, a third makekoshi would send him to sekiwake directly. 2. an Ozeki needs at least a 10-5 once (or maybe twice?) within each 6 basho span, otherwise he is kadoban directly even if he is not makekoshi. Too bad ? But what else, then ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think the Ozeki situation was much more problematic in 2005 when both Chiyo and Kaio used to have one 0(to 5)-x-x MK followed by a KK (but always DD)...

I disagree almost completely. For competitive reasons I'd much rather have a set of ozeki that is sitting out injured half the time but manages to always post 10-12 wins when they're healthy, than having a bunch that keeps posting 8-9 wins without fail.

The real problem is that there's probably no good way to reform the kadoban system. IMO, any workable ozeki demotion system needs to fulfill two requirements:

1) Must not turn the ozeki rank into a revolving door

2) Must not be susceptible to obvious gaming

...where #1 is a more important requirement than #2, if only for reasons of appearance. The current system pretty obviously fails on the second count - unfortunately any revised suggestion I've ever seen didn't improve that aspect, and many additionally violated #1. Hence my belief that the best approach is to treat ozeki more like yokozuna. I don't know if it has to go as far as "Older ones will be 'advised' to retire is another [suggestion]" but I do think that public attention/pressure/whatever one wants to call it is the area most likely to offer some reasonable strategies for augmenting the kadoban system.

Edit: Additionally, I'm wary of the kosho example - the perception of kosho abuse by the current set of ozeki at the time (mostly Musoyama, though Chiyotaikai was also cited) ended up ruining a generally good thing for everybody when kosho was abolished. I'm afraid that the current ozeki performances will eventually provoke another harsh reaction that ends up ruining the kadoban system for multiple future generations of ozeki. Compared to that, simply exerting some more public pressure on underperforming ozeki would be vastly preferable.

Edited by Asashosakari

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think the Ozeki situation was much more problematic in 2005 when both Chiyo and Kaio used to have one 0(to 5)-x-x MK followed by a KK (but always DD)...

I disagree almost completely. For competitive reasons I'd much rather have a set of ozeki that is sitting out injured half the time but manages to always post 10-12 wins when they're healthy, than having a bunch that keeps posting 8-9 wins without fail.

Why? 1. Neither in 2005 nor today were Chiyo and Kaio really "competitive" in terms of winning a yusho. OTOH they are as likely to be a spoiler for the real yusho contenders now as they were four years ago. After all the difference between 8-7/9-6 and 10-5 (which was the best record they used to have back then with one exception) is actually quite small though some here seem to think for some reason that DD tournaments are the ne plus ultra. 2. The problem in 2005 was that they weren't exactly sitting out injured half the time but they tried to compete in every second basho, dropping out halfway after a terrible performance citing some more or less serious sounding injury which at least in my view was much less Ozeki-like than posting solid 8-7 or 9-6 records nearly every basho with 2 dominating yokozuna and a lot of other ozeki being around.

At least I fully agree with you that there is no way to reform the kadoban system...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Why? 1. Neither in 2005 nor today were Chiyo and Kaio really "competitive" in terms of winning a yusho. OTOH they are as likely to be a spoiler for the real yusho contenders now as they were four years ago. After all the difference between 8-7/9-6 and 10-5 (which was the best record they used to have back then with one exception) is actually quite small though some here seem to think for some reason that DD tournaments are the ne plus ultra. 2. The problem in 2005 was that they weren't exactly sitting out injured half the time but they tried to compete in every second basho, dropping out halfway after a terrible performance citing some more or less serious sounding injury which at least in my view was much less Ozeki-like than posting solid 8-7 or 9-6 records nearly every basho with 2 dominating yokozuna and a lot of other ozeki being around.

Since you pointed to 2005, I naturally assumed this type of analysis should include Tochiazuma, who did post more than 10 wins coming back from injury a few times... And one of Kaio's withdrawals came at 5-0, perhaps not exactly fitting the pattern either.

In any case, I disagree that 8-7's and 9-6's are "solid", even with two yokozuna and three more ozeki around - especially when those ozeki aren't doing anything else either. Give me two yokozuna and a couple of ozeki who also regularly win 11-12 bouts, and I'll quickly become more accepting of an ozeki duo that stalls out at 9 wins. Right now, though? No sale.

And yes, I much prefer if the ozeki are dropping out early if they're obviously doing badly - whether the cited injury is real or phony doesn't bother me at all, it's just PR. I just don't care to have tons of "foregone conclusion" bouts in what's nominally a yusho race. Give the yokozunas bouts against additional M4/M5 instead, at least there's probably a nice underdog story there and the (yes, small) potential for a big upset. And it also means they'll get to face the actually well-performing ozekis (whoever that might be in a given basho) on later dates, again improving the end-of-basho competition. Just look at how the torikumi makers were forced to schedule around Chiyotaikai's sucking this time, just so they wouldn't end up with ultra-meaningless Day 13/14 bouts. Sure that was an extreme case, but I'd say the track record of ozeki who merely struggle through the first week (say, 3-4 start) isn't particularly pretty against yokozunas either. Of course they miraculously tend to do well in their ozeki bouts, but there's another thread about that phenomenon already...

Reliable mediocrity just isn't that interesting. I'd rather see something that at least offers some upside, say a spirited Yoshikaze loss in the musubi-no-ichiban. The eventual result may be just as much of a foregone conclusion, but at least it would be entertaining.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My totally irrelevant, impractical, and ill-conceived suggestion would be to leave the rules as they are, but introduce two extra requirements.

1) in order to avoid back-scratching, an Ozeki must go kyujo when he is MK, or even when he has, say, five losses more than wins;

2) an Ozeki must exceed a certain winning average over the last year (excluding those basho that were mentioned under 1)).

If that winning average were 8.5 wins, Chiyotaikai would have been axed after Haru 2005 (that would be harsh), and Kaio would have left the building after Natsu 2008. The other three were still around.

If the winning average were 9 wins, Chiyotaikai would have been ousted aftere Haru 2005 (again), Kaio would have been kicked out after Hatsu 2007, and Kotooshu after Haru 2007.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just noticed the interesting ozeki demotion scheme in Ozumo Bingo Game. Adapted to ozumo, it would essentially be: after a makekoshi you're in perpetual kadoban until you can post 10+ wins, i.e. 7-8, 8-7, 9-6, 8-7, 7-8 results in demotion to sekiwake, where you may come back immediately by posting the 10 wins at that time, but you'll still be kadoban after the repromotion (and would need another 10-win record to clear yourself completely). That's still quite gameable, but it strikes me as the type of change I could actually see being proposed in the Kyokai.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, if one wants to espouse that an ozeki should win 10 bouts in a basho to be considered "worthy", and I do, then:

9 wins or less = kadoban

kadoban ozeki with 8 or 9 wins remains as kadoban ozeki until winning 10

kadoban with less than 8 wins demoted to sekiwake as current

sekiwake with 10 gets you back to ozeki as current

This would have removed Chiyotaikai to sekiwake after Hatsu 2001 (but he would have returned with 12 wins in Natsu after kosho), and out for good after Kyushu 2004.

This would have removed Kaio to sekiwake after Aki 2006 (but returned with 10 wins in Kyushu), and out for good after Aki 2007.

Of course, this proposed definition of kadoban would mean a lot MORE basho where ozeki are considered kadoban... so perhaps, after 3 successive kadoban (as defined above) would result in demotion too?

Fun to theorize about change, but the current system is what we as fans have to deal with until the Kyokai sees any need to reform it. And, perhaps it is just as well to leave it as it is for consistency's sake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One suggestion I haven't seen so far, but would be quite easy to implement: Let the OBSC meet on the first days of the basho when these bouts actually mean something for both ozeki. Replacing the usual match-ups against overmatched joi-jin is hardly a sacrifice at all, and if you go that way you can determine even better later on which opponents are best against the ozeki (e. g. not a 0-9 Hokutoriki for day 11).

No further changes required. Pure brilliance. (Bomb about to be blown...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just noticed the interesting ozeki demotion scheme in Ozumo Bingo Game. Adapted to ozumo, it would essentially be: after a makekoshi you're in perpetual kadoban until you can post 10+ wins, i.e. 7-8, 8-7, 9-6, 8-7, 7-8 results in demotion to sekiwake, where you may come back immediately by posting the 10 wins at that time, but you'll still be kadoban after the repromotion (and would need another 10-win record to clear yourself completely). That's still quite gameable, but it strikes me as the type of change I could actually see being proposed in the Kyokai.

I actually really like this idea; it would probably add a nice new dimension of excitement too, seeing as how it would reward achieving more than simply kk as an ozeki. Right now there is really no incentive for the ozeki to achieve any better than kk if they aren't threatening for the yusho, and it breeds some half-assed sumo. However, if we add that incentive it would likely foster a better quality of sumo from the ozeki bunch.

Another idea would be providing more bonus $ to the winner of each ozeki/ozeki match, though honestly this probably wouldn't do that much...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just noticed the interesting ozeki demotion scheme in Ozumo Bingo Game. Adapted to ozumo, it would essentially be: after a makekoshi you're in perpetual kadoban until you can post 10+ wins, i.e. 7-8, 8-7, 9-6, 8-7, 7-8 results in demotion to sekiwake, where you may come back immediately by posting the 10 wins at that time, but you'll still be kadoban after the repromotion (and would need another 10-win record to clear yourself completely). That's still quite gameable, but it strikes me as the type of change I could actually see being proposed in the Kyokai.

(Bomb about to be blown...)

I sure it won't happen any time soon, but this is actually a nice idea imo.

It would allow for kadoban but still force the kadoban ozeki to actually do something more than clearing himself with a simple 8/7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Given the current situation, Musashigawa has asked for an emergency convening of the rijikai tomorrow morning. The agenda- new kadoban rules.

"Ozeki saying they are doing their best is commendable, but not good enough. This latest 2-13 record by an Ozeki is disgraceful. Sponsors are growing

tired. I will try to put forth some suggestions and we will decide as soon as possible!", he boomed.

Change 1- No Kadoban after two consecutive kadoban attempts.

How they will implement this is a mystery to me.

Another suggestion: After winning 11+ for three straight basho or more, (33 wins in three basho) the rikishi "earns" another Ozeki promotion,

almost like a "get out of jail free" card in monopoly, which he can use when he's in trouble. The more he repeats that, the more "tickets" he gets.

Part 3: All inter-Ozeki matches will be worth 2 points for the winner in the above system. (I hope I got this

right).

In case of three consecutive 8-7s, the third one will count as a "minus bonus" (マイナス ボーナス)

leading to a kadoban that can only be erased with 9 wins.

FWIW, these "suggestions" are expected to be met with a lot of

opposition from the other members of the Kyokai who already have sent messages by way of

officers saying in no uncertain terms that Rijicho is totally panicking and not thinking this through. Some are even saying this looks

like he's trying to go down in history as "the guy who made the changes", before he retires.

Some changes.

Edited by Kintamayama

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In case of three consecutive 8-7s, the third one will count as a "minus bonus" (マイナス ボーナス)

leading to a kadoban that can only be erased with 9 wins.

I'm not a big fan of change, but this one doesn't sound too bad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the shigatsu baka rule will be the easiest to enforce.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this