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大和言葉

Are there any Black Rikishi?

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Ok, I've searched, but couldn't find any info. I have a couple of questions?

1) Are there any Black Rikishi, or there have been in the past, in the kyokai?

2) Why Manny Yarbough never went pro ?

3) What the kyokai would do for the topknot of a Black sekitori with nappy hair? tell him to get bald and wear a wig?

thanx.

Edited by 大和言葉

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Ok, I've searched, but couldn't find any info. I have a couple of questions?

1) Are there any Black Rikishi, or there have been in the past, in the kyokai?

2) Why Manny Yarbough never went pro ?

3) What the kyokai would for the topknot of a Black sekitori with nappy hair? tell him to get bald and wear a wig?

thanx.

Wasn't Sentoryu black?

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There's a great pic of Akebono, or one of the Hawaiians, when they're young, with a massive afro. They can do amazing things with hair given the right oils and enough pulling.

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I know of one who has curls - he got a chemical hair-ironing (no idea how to say that in English, sorry ^^) and then everything was fine.

Sentoryu has a black father and a japanese mother. He is now in pride and won an important bout on saturday. Now he can become a champion. :)

No idea about Manny, but first thought is - he was already too old to join?

Edited by ilovesumo

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Wasn't Sentoryu black?

Sentoryu was half Japanese. I'm talking about " just Black" like a Black African, or a Black American, both parents are Black.

I mean, Sentoryu might be counted as " Black" by some people, but what I mean is just somebody that is not half anything.

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Then we can answer with "nope" but I do not know about guys who joined and then retired quickly after.

Edited by ilovesumo

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...he got a chemical hair-ironing (no idea how to say that in English, sorry ^^)

If you're curious, straightening afros = "straight perm" or perm for short.

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...he got a chemical hair-ironing (no idea how to say that in English, sorry ^^)

If you're curious, straightening afros = "straight perm" or perm for short.

Thank you. We never stop learning... (Sign of approval...)

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Wasn't Sentoryu black?

Sentoryu was half Japanese. I'm talking about " just Black" like a Black African, or a Black American, both parents are Black.

I mean, Sentoryu might be counted as " Black" by some people, but what I mean is just somebody that is not half anything.

Wow.

First, very, very few African-Americans are of pure African ancestry. Almost none in fact, unless they're recent immigrants. So in relation to black Americans, this "half" is even more meaningless than it is otherwise.

Second, if Sentoryu were to have tried to use "white-only" facilities in the Jim Crow-era American South, or apartheid-era South Africa, he'd have been treated as black to the full extent of the law.

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Second, if Sentoryu were to have tried to use "white-only" facilities in the Jim Crow-era American South, or apartheid-era South Africa, he'd have been treated as black to the full extent of the law.

[Off-topic]

Under apartheid, Japanese were classified as 'honorary whites'. I think Sentoryu would have been classified as a 'Coloured' in Apartheid-era South Africa, which is a different classification to 'Black'. In fact, most African Americans (I heard the statistic of 90%, when I was at school in Swaziland in a multi-racial high school, back in the early '90s, but I have a feeling that may have been an underestimate) would have been classified as 'Coloureds' and not 'Black' if they were South African at that time.

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Wow.

First, very, very few African-Americans are of pure African ancestry. Almost none in fact, unless they're recent immigrants. So in relation to black Americans, this "half" is even more meaningless than it is otherwise.

Second, if Sentoryu were to have tried to use "white-only" facilities in the Jim Crow-era American South, or apartheid-era South Africa, he'd have been treated as black to the full extent of the law.

Ok,I'm aware of that, but Sentoryu can't be compare with your average " AA" of the United States.(I'm not saying that you are implying this).

I'm not trying to make this a thread about race, one-drop rule, apartheid and other racial laws of the past.etc, that is controversial topic and this thread is not about it.

Perhaps I shoudve been more detailed

Who else besides Sentoryu, somebody that both parent,or great,great grandparents were slaves, or some other people that are "mostly" of African descent, not " 50/50", is or has been a professional rikishi in the kyokai??

thanx

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Second, if Sentoryu were to have tried to use "white-only" facilities in the Jim Crow-era American South [...] he'd have been treated as black to the full extent of the law.

Well even Homer Plessy who was only 1/8 black and 7/8 white and actually was completey pale-faced had to be treated as black in the Jim Crow-era causing one of the most disgraceful Supreme Court decisions in US history... But the thread is really off-topic now which kind of isn't very surprising given the initial question...

Who else besides Sentoryu, somebody that both parent,or great,great grandparents were slaves, or some other people that are "mostly" of African descent, not " 50/50", is or has been a professional rikishi in the kyokai??

I'm quite sure nobody that fits in this category ever was a professional rikishi. Maybe Doitsuyama needs to include information about racial ancestry within his database... (Yusho winner...)

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Race is a concept that has been thoroughly debunked in the sciences. Genetically speaking, there is probably no such thing as the 'mostly' black person you appear to be implying; all people are essentially hybrid. What you are asking then, really, is are there any rikishi defined, by themselves and/or others, as black. The answer, as already stated, appears to be no.

Whilst ideas of race may lack scientific backing, this of course doesn't mean it is not an issue in contemporary societies (and I'm not denying racism exists, or anything like that). Funnily enough, a number of British people who I've exposed to Sumo have complained about the European rikishi, saying that since they don't look Asian, it 'doesn't feel right.'

Edit: typo

Edited by kotoeikoku

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No idea about Manny, but first thought is - he was already too old to join?

Yes, Manny got into sumo after he'd been at college, so he was probably a touch too old. (I've seen something on wikipedia that said he was born in 1960, but I think that date must be incorrect as it makes him too old.)

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and with al this daft search for the 'pure' black man our new member is trying to acheive, lets not forget, he who espoused so much pride in the black people in the US back i nthe day - Malcolm X had a white parent / grandparent?

Imagine if a 'nationality' were asking the same 'is he pure.....' questions? WOuld it be let go? The rikishi are rikishi. Simple. Their colour doesn't matter.

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I'm not trying to make this a thread about race, one-drop rule, apartheid and other racial laws of the past.etc, that is controversial topic and this thread is not about it.

Then you shouldn't have started a topic alluding to the color of a human's skin.

Perhaps I shoudve been more detailed

Who else besides Sentoryu, somebody that both parent,or great,great grandparents were slaves, or some other people that are "mostly" of African descent, not " 50/50", is or has been a professional rikishi in the kyokai??

thanx

Perhaps you shouldve left it alone. Your original post was at the bare minimum insensitve, if not entirely offensive, associating people with darker skin to having "nappy" hair. Secondly you stupidly assume that people with darker skin have all had slaves as ancestors, or even that they would have to come from the African continent.

Personally I find these questions and this thread offensive, and request this topic removed.

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Race is a concept that has been thoroughly debunked in the sciences. Genetically speaking, there is probably no such thing as the 'mostly' black person you appear to be implying; all people are essentially hybrid. What you are asking then, really, is are there any rikishi defined, by themselves and/or others, as black. The answer, as already stated, appears to be no.

Whilst ideas of race may lack scientific backing, this of course doesn't mean it is not an issue in contemporary societies (and I'm not denying racism exists, or anything like that). Funnily enough, a number of British people who I've exposed to Sumo have complained about the European rikishi, saying that since they don't look Asian, it 'doesn't feel right.'

Edit: typo

Ok, so I guess that anwer is no.

The reason I asked this question, is because I've seen gaikokujin round-eye rikishi such as kotooshu, baruto ,kokkai, roho,etc, but they're all White. Not that there something wrong with that, but i was just curious.

I love that there are more non-yamatos in Sumo, I think that it would be nice, perhaps, if some Black or East Indians have a presence in the sport.

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Perhaps you shouldve left it alone. Your original post was at the bare minimum insensitve, if not entirely offensive, associating people with darker skin to having "nappy" hair. Secondly you stupidly assume that people with darker skin have all had slaves as ancestors, or even that they would have to come from the African continent.

Personally I find these questions and this thread offensive, and request this topic removed.

Ok, take a chill pill, your post is " political correctness gone mad".

My post wasn't offensive at all, I never implied that only " dark-skin, native sub-saharan african ancestry,etc,etc" can have nappy hair? Wha is wrong with saying " nappy hair"? does " frizzy" sounds more pc for you? or perhaps " kinky" hair. oh wait, kinky hair is not pc , that means bdsm hair I guess.

I knew that somebody was going to come up with some thrash about " slave ancestors". Ofcouse, not everybody with darker skin had slave ancestor, look at Obama, duh!! (Bomb about to be blown...)

Most AA, I would say over 90%, had some ancestor that was a slave at some point in time in U.S history, that was what I was referring to, what's wrong with that?

How a simple post asking a simple question turns into some " touchy-feely, ultra-sensitive political correctness police"?

Edited by 大和言葉

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I'm not trying to make this a thread about race, one-drop rule, apartheid and other racial laws of the past.etc, that is controversial topic and this thread is not about it.

Then you shouldn't have started a topic alluding to the color of a human's skin.

Perhaps I shoudve been more detailed

Who else besides Sentoryu, somebody that both parent,or great,great grandparents were slaves, or some other people that are "mostly" of African descent, not " 50/50", is or has been a professional rikishi in the kyokai??

Perhaps you shouldve left it alone. Your original post was at the bare minimum insensitve, if not entirely offensive, associating people with darker skin to having "nappy" hair. Secondly you stupidly assume that people with darker skin have all had slaves as ancestors, or even that they would have to come from the African continent.

Personally I find these questions and this thread offensive, and request this topic removed.

Really "nappy" hair is offensive. True the word has bad historical connotations. There are better ones to describe the most common hair properties of those who are mostly of African descent, but I can't think of it. Perhaps "extremely curly".

Secondly his meaning was quite clear that he was asking about those who would self identify solely as "Black" and not mixed. The whole slave issue came in when Kuroyama mentioned the Jim Crowe era which is completely irrelevant to anything in this thread. How bigots back in the day defined black is perhaps not a useful metric for this question.

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How bigots back in the day defined black is perhaps not a useful metric for this question.

It is when "half-black" is used as if it were a meaningful term. It's nice that we've moved past the "one-drop of blood" theory of racial "taint", but the idea of racial purity is absurd at its root.

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How bigots back in the day defined black is perhaps not a useful metric for this question.

It is when "half-black" is used as if it were a meaningful term. It's nice that we've moved past the "one-drop of blood" theory of racial "taint", but the idea of racial purity is absurd at its root.

No one's asking for racial purity here. But there is a qualitative difference between someone who's half Black versus the typical African American. Now, what's the point of this question and this limit. Just curiosity, I presume. Just like I'd be curious if there was Jewish rikishi. And if you told me their grandpa was a practicing Jew, I'd say that's nice to know, but are there any "real" Jewish rikishi.

How do you describe the ancestry of such a person briefly besides half-black and half-japanese? We classify things into groups even if there aren't clear boundaries for ease of communication. It's better than the olden days, saying I am Conan son of Apu and Mika.

If you're really averse to use of any racial labels, perhaps we could rephrase the question "have there been any rikishi that primarily shares the genetic/physical traits of those on mid-to southern Africa when compared to average peoples of other locals?" Or better yet, "are there any rikishi that have self-identified as Black". But that's a bit cumbersome when we already have classifications and words that can express the same thought in a more "normal" manner.

as for the nappy hair, poorly worded question perhaps, although some of you took it to imply bad things, when it is simply a state of being. That question (already answered) is just curiosity of how difficult to manage hair is... managed.

All said, I think half of you have gone off the deepend for no good reason.

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round-eye rikishi

As opposed to what? "Slit-eyed nips"?

"Nappy" hair was Don Imus-y but now you are well into offensive-term territory

Huh, never knew round-eye was offensive. "As opposed to" is your own construction. As opposed to the norm, which is, by definition... normal. There are few Asian-eye references that are not offensive.

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No one's asking for racial purity here. But there is a qualitative difference between someone who's half Black versus the typical African American.

Actually, OP was asking for racial purity. And the "typical African-American" runs over an enormous spectrum. I can't even think what you might mean by "typical".

How do you describe the ancestry of such a person briefly besides half-black and half-japanese? We classify things into groups even if there aren't clear boundaries for ease of communication.

That's not the issue. It's the idea that Sentoryu somehow doesn't "count" as black because he's of insufficiently pure ancestry. Self-identification as "black" ought to be enough, as long as it's not ridiculous (as it would be for me, with my mixed Slavic/Scottish/Irish ancestry.)

And that was really the point when I brought up the "bad old days" when race identification was not something individuals could decide for themselves. Now it is. Decreeing that a man may not consider himself black -- or that others may not consider him black -- because his parentage isn't quite correct is a step backwards.

I don't know whether Sentoryu identifies himself as black or not. The point is that's his decision and no one else's.

It's better than the olden days, saying I am Conan son of Apu and Mika.

You know there are countries -- developed countries -- where they still do this, right?

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No one's asking for racial purity here. But there is a qualitative difference between someone who's half Black versus the typical African American.

Actually, OP was asking for racial purity. And the "typical African-American" runs over an enormous spectrum. I can't even think what you might mean by "typical".

I presume OP is 大和言葉, because to me it reads with neither O nor P.

OP was asking for "just black". (see below).

How do you describe the ancestry of such a person briefly besides half-black and half-japanese? We classify things into groups even if there aren't clear boundaries for ease of communication.

That's not the issue. It's the idea that Sentoryu somehow doesn't "count" as black because he's of insufficiently pure ancestry. Self-identification as "black" ought to be enough, as long as it's not ridiculous (as it would be for me, with my mixed Slavic/Scottish/Irish ancestry.)

He does say that Sentoryu might be counted as black by some, which is unnecessary, but he is/(should be) asking if those that have 2 "black" parents are in sumo. By his statement "what I mean is just somebody that is not half anything" is that he is refining his search space from "all self identified blacks" to "all self identified blacks who aren't half soemthing else". This is changing the definition of the search space, not changing the definition of who is black or not.

It's better than the olden days, saying I am Conan son of Apu and Mika.

You know there are countries -- developed countries -- where they still do this, right?

Irrelevant, but good to know. Actually, the whole system of surnames is the same on a slightly less granular level.

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