Sign in to follow this  
Jakusotsu

Kaio - should he stay or should he go now

Recommended Posts

I think you meant

Kaio hasn't been one of the top ozekis in history for years now ...

That top ozeki in history hasn't graced the dohyo since 2005 unfortunately. You don't get bonus wins for historical achievements. (Of course, on second thought, that's what all the back-scratching theories pretty much amount to...)

BTW, 16-11 against a trio of guys who are 1) a guy establishing himself firmly in lower sanyaku right now, 2) a guy who can't quite seem to establish himself firmly in lower sanyaku, and 3) a guy who just arrived at the big-time recently and might establish himself in sanyaku (and meanwhile has gone something like 5-20 against all ozeki) is nothing worth bragging about for an ozeki. As has been amply pointed out earlier in the thread, "hey, he's still slightly better than those guys occupying the komusubi and sekiwake ranks!" is not a valid defense of an ozeki performance. The seventh-best rikishi in ozumo doesn't have be ranked at ozeki.

Edited by Asashosakari

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One last post before I'll turn my participation in this thread read-only...

Even though it may appear that I'm on a sudden anti-Kaio witch hunt or something, I'm not. If you look at my forum profile, you'll find Kaio listed under my favourite rikishi just as he's been for years now, and I have no intention of changing that before he retires.

That said, I find it quite incredible to which lengths people are going in order to defend his current performance levels. Quite honestly, this entire thread has only brought forth two credible arguments in support of his continued stay at ozeki: #1 is Jakusotsu's "he's still money in the bank for the Kyokai, that's all the justification needed", and #2 is the subjective angle taken by several people, i.e. "he's still exciting to watch and that's why I hope he'll stay as long as possible". Just about everything else is...well, [vaguely insulting epithet goes here]. Most especially the "not a trendsetter" argument ("But other ozeki have done the same!" - who said it was just fine when they did?), and the intentional conflation of historical and current performance to wave away the issues that obviously exist with the current performance.

In a few years (or perhaps less than that), Asashoryu won't get to claim that he should continue to be a yokozuna based on his 20+ yusho despite falling results, and right now Tosanoumi doesn't get to claim that he should still be considered a makuuchi-quality rikishi just because he was once a steady sanyaku. That Kaio has somehow managed to keep his rank doesn't mean he's still delivering acceptable ozeki sumo, it just means that the official demotion standard for ozeki is much more easily circumvented than those in place for every other rank in sumo.

All in all, I really don't mind if Kaio wants to hang on until 2015 when he can celebrate his 25th kadoban basho...there's so much that's interesting about ozumo that I'll just do as I always do when something annoys me, and that's to blank it out until it goes away or gets better, and concentrate on more interesting aspects in the meantime. (Worked well during Asashoryu's '05/06 ultra-dominance.) But it still doesn't make it alright that it's happening in the first place. Oh well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
..And, I'm not sure what mark will he leave upon retirement... Many people may remember his era of disgrace and the undignified manner in which he accomplished his records...

Like Chiyonofuji?

name "Asashosakari"]In a few years (or perhaps less than that), Asashoryu won't get to claim that he should continue to be a yokozuna based on his 20+ yusho despite falling results, and right now Tosanoumi doesn't get to claim that he should still be considered a makuuchi-quality rikishi just because he was once a steady sanyaku. That Kaio has somehow managed to keep his rank doesn't mean he's still delivering acceptable ozeki sumo, it just means that the official demotion standard for ozeki is much more easily circumvented than those in place for every other rank in sumo.

I am loath to argue when you've apparently bowed out, but this entire paragraph is a non-sequitur. Kaio isn't an Ozeki because he's claiming credit for past success, he's an Ozeki because the only way they get demoted is two straight makekoshi, which he has yet to do. Certainly, he is not showing the sumo ideally expected of an Ozeki, but unlike Yokozuna, Ozeki-like performance is an expectation, not a requirement.

Kaio is obviously a shadow of his former self, but so has been every Ozeki before their demotion. He may be benefiting from yaocho, but he would not be the first to extend time in rank in such a way. The two makekoshi rule is the benefit of becoming Ozeki, every Ozeki of the post-war age has benefited from it, and Kaio should be under no obligation to forgo that benefit simply because he's not putting up double digits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, just for clarification, then I'm really quiet. (On the banzuke...)

I am loath to argue when you've apparently bowed out, but this entire paragraph is a non-sequitur. Kaio isn't an Ozeki because he's claiming credit for past success, he's an Ozeki because the only way they get demoted is two straight makekoshi, which he has yet to do.

The "past success" part was in response to people saying (even before kame's post) that his 5 yusho etc. somehow make his current results beyond criticism as long as he still posts 8-7's ad nauseam. Anyway, I didn't say he's doing something illicit or whatever word one might think of in keeping his rank, I'm just shooting down the claim that he must be doing perfectly fine because, hey, he hasn't been demoted yet, which ignores the very real fact that he (and of course all other ozeki since 1969) is also getting a much easier ride to rank retainment than rikishi at every other rank in the paid divisions, arguably including yokozuna who at least get the public pressure instead. Doing the minimum necessary doesn't mean you're doing well.

Of course that doesn't change the fact that he's perfectly justified to keep the rank as long as he does manage to do the minimum necessary, and I'm not claiming anything different. But it being justified doesn't mean it's good, though plenty of people in this thread claim that there's an identity between both, presumably because it's hard/impossible to defend his performance on its actual merits. I would have posted about 90% less in this thread if people were simply being honest with themselves and admitted that they're in support of Kaio being around because they like him being around (hey, so am I!), and would cut out all the abuse of objective data and the spurious claims produced by it.

Edited by Asashosakari

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be honest, I just reacted to some posts calling Kaio's performance disgraceful, disgusting, a blemish to the rank, etc. I never meant to say he's been doing great. He's done nothing vs either yokozuna, like pretty much everyone else, but he's held his own against the rising stars (8-9 vs Harumafuji and better against others).

Anyhow, like you I've had my say, and Jakusotu summed it up nicely. I just wish people who single out Kaio while shoving fingers down their throats showed some ;-) . After all, the guy's been in ozumo for 20 yrs, 15 of those fighting the very best.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As an unabashed Kaio fan for more than a decade, I for one hopes he can carry on long enough to break Chiyonofuji's mark. Here's how I see it going down:

At 774 wins, Kaio is just thirty-four victories shy of the magic 808. Over the most recent twelve basho, he has scored an average of 7.25 wins per tourney. As long as he can maintain that (admittedly mediocre) pace, we can expect the recording breaking event to occur in approximately 4.7 basho. That puts us on Day 11 of next year's Hatsu Basho, which corresponds to Wednesday, January 20, 2010. I may just have to blow off the entire week of work so as not to miss it...Count down on!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kaio is certainly capable of breaking the longest stint in Makunouchi, and Chiyonofuji's number of Makunouchi victories, if he were allow himself to be demoted from ozeki. It'd take a year (at least) to knock him out of the division.

But he has said that he would retire when he loses his ozeki rank. So, there is a bit more pressure on him.

He now has two more guaranteed bashos at Ozeki . If he were to MK in his next two bashos, and so be demoted to Sekiwake for September (which would tie the record for the number of Makunouchi bashos) - if he turned up, would he retire - as he said he would? Or would he turn up to get that impressive record?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kaio is certainly capable of breaking the longest stint in Makunouchi, and Chiyonofuji's number of Makunouchi victories, if he were allow himself to be demoted from ozeki. It'd take a year (at least) to knock him out of the division.

But he has said that he would retire when he loses his ozeki rank. So, there is a bit more pressure on him.

He now has two more guaranteed bashos at Ozeki . If he were to MK in his next two bashos, and so be demoted to Sekiwake for September (which would tie the record for the number of Makunouchi bashos) - if he turned up, would he retire - as he said he would? Or would he turn up to get that impressive record?

Every year I have thought it was the end of the line for Kinta, only to be surprised when he pulls of the critical KK. While his best days are clearly in the past, I believe there is enough fire left in him to break the record. After that, who knows? He won't really have anything more to prove...In fact, I would be willing to bet that he'd hang up the mawashi if he broke the record in Kyushu this year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
After that, who knows? He won't really have anything more to prove...In fact, I would be willing to bet that he'd hang up the mawashi if he broke the record in Kyushu this year.

Well, he could gun for 1,000 career wins, 58 wins to go. I think this would be a bigger mark than most makuuchi wins, at least it was when Chiyonofuji made it, I believe. Or of course he can try overtaking Chiyonofuji in career wins which is 104 wins away. Impossible I think, but I had similar thoughts before with Kaio...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...and yet in every interview he said he didn't care at all about any records he broke. Might be pretending, of course...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...and yet in every interview he said he didn't care at all about any records he broke. Might be pretending, of course...

Kaiouuu is a mega (pre)tender! (Sign of approval...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Every year I have thought it was the end of the line for Kinta, only to be surprised when he pulls of the critical KK. While his best days are clearly in the past, I believe there is enough fire left in him to break the record. After that, who knows? He won't really have anything more to prove...In fact, I would be willing to bet that he'd hang up the mawashi if he broke the record in Kyushu this year.

Mr. Kintamayama - are you planning your intai? (Yusho winner...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr. Kintamayama - are you planning your intai? (Yusho winner...)

Dampatsushiki for Kintamayama would be a vasectomy. We will see some serious crying on the dohyo when the final snip is made.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
unless he gets some 'dope' from the lads using.......

Please explain - as I am missing the joke (I think). (Yusho winner...)

Do steroids remove pain? (In a state of confusion...)

Or are you suggesting that marijuana removes pain? (In a state of confusion...)

Edit: My apologies for not being 'au fait' with the effects of various drugs :-(.

Edited by Jejima

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr. Kintamayama - are you planning your intai? (Bomb about to be blown...)

Who?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr. Kintamayama - are you planning your intai? (Bomb about to be blown...)

Who?

This is an extremely deep & specific joke ( in my opinion ).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this