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Jejima

Ozeki Back-Scratchers' Club

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I realize you are just thinking out loud, but, don't hold your breath. It still nags me after all this time that active coaches act as judges and for their own wrestlers; and no one see this as a problem inside sumo, at least not vocally.

It's just about as fair as it can get. There are four shifts of five judges, and each of the five ichimon (sumo-beya groups) nominates one of its own oyakata for a place in each shift. In other words, if one shimpan tries to favour his own deshi, there are four others around the ring who are in a different ichimon.

When one drops out in rotation in the last three shift changes in the day (Juryo, Makuuchi first and second halves) he is replaced by one of the three chief judges, who are supposed to be above favoritism (and comed under keen scrutiny).

Orion

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OBSC - you could never prove the existence of such a "club" I doubt they even say anything to each other about, I believe it to be an unwritten unspoken thing, if you are an middling ozeki not challenging for the yusho and struggling to hold your rank the others "help a brother out" so to speak.

But then again what would I know.

Edited by sekihiryu

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OBSC - you could never prove the existence of such a "club" I doubt they even say anything to each other about, I believe it to be an unwritten unspoken thing, if you are an middling ozeki not challenging for the yusho and struggling for to hold your rank the others "help a brother out" so to speak.

I thought that was the exact definition of the 'club'. I'm not sure too many people think they actually have spoken about this.

For anybody who doesn't want to click the link I gave above, we now have 17 matches (I expanded the criteria to include Day 11, which added 2 more data points to the 15 others) in a row won by the needy Ozeki, not including matches involving Hakuho or fusen. Given odds of 50-50 (or even 60-40 in favour of needy Ozeki) on each individual match, there is approximately a 99.999% chance that something is wrong. Those are roughly the same odds given on a paternity test. For anybody to now argue that this is all legit, is the basic equivalent of arguing that the accuracy of a paternity test is not enough to prove parenthood, even though it is completely admissible in court as proof. What that means is that if scratching another Ozeki's back was a crime, you could take the pattern to court and convince the jury, beyond reasonable doubt, that they are helping each other.

Of course, the term 'reasonable doubt' is important here. Some people are not so reasonable. Only those who want desperately enough to believe this is legit could deny the Ozeki back-scratching. I want to believe it isn't true, as it ruins some of the fun for me, but I cannot, and will not dispute the facts in front of me and the pattern that has emerged.

Edited by Kozaru

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For me this Ozezki 8-7 re-insurance business is no joke, rather, it takes a lot of joy out of the sport. I'd much rather have seen Taikai fight on as a Sekiwake than being served yet another fabricated result.

Some hard thinking would be required on how the incentives for Ozeki collusion can be reduced (they can never be eliminated, of course). Such as have a kadoban Ozeki fight the other Ozeki early in the tournament.

But this pre-supposes a will to fix something that is visibly broken.

I made that suggestion earlier on, just let the ozeki meet early, and not only the kadoban ones, because non kadoban kachi-koshi are not always kosher as well. There will be enough interesting bouts left later in the basho - heck, even more because the ozeki match-ups done this way just aren't interesting. No one said anything about it though, so I wonder what's wrong with my solution?

I would imagine that the kadoban Ozeki would still defeat club members (Harry excluded from the club) even if you had those bouts on the first few days of the basho. It is probably better if they meet fellow ozekis later on (as is the case), just on the very off-chance that one of those ozekis still has a shot at the yusho (maybe either of the Koto boys?), when there is still some meaning in the bout for them....

Perhaps mid-basho would be best?

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We have just seen .gif on white why it doesn't matter when the Ozeki will meet- we seem to forget what I have been saying all along- there are many non-Ozeki club semi-members, who out of some misguided "respect" will not cause their "role model" to retire. Baruto just proved that point, but I would add most joi Japanese rikishi to that list-if it were up to them, they would lose. I'm sure if Kozaru expanded his experiment to the joi who met a needy Ozeki in crunch time, we would not be surprised at the results.

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We have just seen .gif on white why it doesn't matter when the Ozeki will meet- we seem to forget what I have been saying all along- there are many non-Ozeki club semi-members, who out of some misguided "respect" will not cause their "role model" to retire. Baruto just proved that point, but I would add most joi Japanese rikishi to that list-if it were up to them, they would lose. I'm sure if Kozaru expanded his experiment to the joi who met a needy Ozeki in crunch time, we would not be surprised at the results.

This is so very true -- and it's not just the Japanese joi rikishi or the young guys either, just look at the Kyokutenho (who I love dearly) and Chiyo match on day 1 heh.

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We have just seen .gif on white why it doesn't matter when the Ozeki will meet- we seem to forget what I have been saying all along- there are many non-Ozeki club semi-members, who out of some misguided "respect" will not cause their "role model" to retire. Baruto just proved that point, but I would add most joi Japanese rikishi to that list-if it were up to them, they would lose. I'm sure if Kozaru expanded his experiment to the joi who met a needy Ozeki in crunch time, we would not be surprised at the results.

Your wish is my command. I want to make 3 points here:

1. Thanks to Doitsuyama for the database which makes this research possible.

2. Since 2006, there have been 19 cases when a Sekiwake or lower (of ANY record, KK or not) meets a needy Ozeki from Days 13-15. The results are 16-3 in favour of the Ozeki. If we only look at Days 14 and 15 (the real crunch time), then the record is 10-1. Again, doesn't look good, does it? If you want to combine the Ozeki-Ozeki matches from Days 11-15, with Ozeki-Sekiwake/Komusubi/Maegashira matches from Days 14 and 15, then we get a total record of 27-1 for needy Ozeki.

http://sumodb.sumogames.com/Query_bout.asp...amp;show_form=0

3. This is not the original Ozeki back scratching club. From 1950-1968, we see an apparently random pattern when a KK-Ozeki faces a needy one. But from 1969-1971, there was a run of 18-1 in favour of needy Ozeki. What happened in July of 1969? If you answered, "the first moon-landing", you'd be right. But also, that was when the Association changed the Ozeki demotion rule from 3 MKs to 2 MKs. A coincidence, I'm sure :-)

Edited by Kozaru

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If you're wondering, the one loss for needy Ozeki that I mentioned in the last post was Kakuryu over Kotomitsuki on Day 14 of this basho.

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If you're wondering, the one loss for needy Ozeki that I mentioned in the last post was Kakuryu over Kotomitsuki on Day 14 of this basho.

That's why I specifically said JAPANESE joi-jin. So we're actually perfect..

Edited by Kintamayama

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I find it amazing that the same people who were having a collective cow over the Mongolian-and-friends golf outing giving the appearance of match fixing going on apparently having no problem with Chiyotaikai's amazing comeback (only used as a recent example) also giving the appearance of match fixing going on, courtesy of the so-called OBSC

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I know his niece well.

One man's niece is another man's cousin. :-)

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Hello old thread!! This basho is going to be interesting in this aspect-with 2 Ozeki in the yusho race and another hoping to carry over his Yokozuna run, KaioU (needs 3) and Chiyotaikai (needs 4) are going to find it extremely difficult to cash in their chips.

Edited by Kintamayama

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Not really. Nobody is kadoban, Harumafuji self-destructed against the hiramaku already, and I don't think anyone will scratch Osh to yusho, so the club will have leave until Aki.

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Not really. Nobody is kadoban, Harumafuji self-destructed against the hiramaku already, and I don't think anyone will scratch Osh to yusho, so the club will have leave until Aki.

I think the club works regardless of anyone being kadoban. It becomes more "intense" when someone is, but a 7-7 Ozeki usually beats an already KK Ozeki almost always, notwithstanding. I'm not sure it's going to work this time, though. And Harumafuji still has a chance at the yusho, as slim as it may be. He beats Kotomitsuki tomorrow, and it will be a bit more interesting.

Edited by Kintamayama

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And Harumafuji still has a chance at the yusho, as slim as it may be. He beats Kotomitsuki tomorrow, and it will be a bit more interesting.

Since you mentioned Harumafuji in this thread, did you mean beats or "beats" in the quote?

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And Harumafuji still has a chance at the yusho, as slim as it may be. He beats Kotomitsuki tomorrow, and it will be a bit more interesting.

Since you mentioned Harumafuji in this thread, did you mean beats or "beats" in the quote?

I meant beats-Harumafuji is yet to become a wooden gangster.

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Did anyone (other than me) think that today's Taikai vs Kotomitsuki bout was slightly iffy? I was watching it from the rafters, but before it happened I called how I thought it 'could' go before it happened. (Taikai's trademark tsuppari from days of yore followed by a mawashi pull down by Miki.)

I was stood next to the Higashi Hana-michi rikishi in the tunnel before their dohyo-iri, during which Taikai was in a very chatty, jocular mode. (Unlike the lower ranked guys who were mostly very focused, apart from Takamisakari who kept on pretending to elbow his neighbour in the face.)

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Did anyone (other than me) think that today's Taikai vs Kotomitsuki bout was slightly iffy? I was watching it from the rafters, but before it happened I called how I thought it 'could' go before it happened. (Taikai's trademark tsuppari from days of yore followed by a mawashi pull down by Miki.)

I was stood next to the Higashi Hana-michi rikishi in the tunnel before their dohyo-iri, during which Taikai was in a very chatty, jocular mode. (Unlike the lower ranked guys who were mostly very focused, apart from Takamisakari who kept on pretending to elbow his neighbour in the face.)

I don't think a bout between those two 'could' go in any different way-of course Taikai would come out with a tsuppari attack and Mickey would try for the belt leaving a good chance for a mawashi pulldown. No way in hell Taikai would drop this one. The fact he isn't kadoban is not relevant-he will be next basho at this rate, as I don't see Harumafuji or the two yokozuna handing him a freebie this time around. I'm not even sure U can give him one this time either..

But, we shall see.

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Perhaps Taikai gave it to Mitsuki to get his pittance back from Oshu later on, which will make him look more heroic, slaying a big bad barbarian from the West or is it the East, regardless, otherwise an alien from far and beyond.

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It looked like Kotomitsuki could have finished today's bout much more easily than he actually did, but someway he opted to pretend Chiyotaikai's tsuppari had at least some power so as not dent his opponent's lingering and dying out Ozeki outlook. Then, when the sham ended, the Sadogatake Ozeki finished it off with that easy uwatenage.

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I watched it from the nose bleed seats but it looked good from there, the crowd (including me) loved it and really I didn't expect Taikai could win it without resorting to a flying henka of some sort. He still needs 3 more out of 7 unless he wants to extend his kadoban record... not completely out of the question I suppose.

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He still needs 3 more out of 7 unless he wants to extend his kadoban record... not completely out of the question I suppose.

4 out of 7.

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He still needs 3 more out of 7 unless he wants to extend his kadoban record... not completely out of the question I suppose.

4 out of 7.

Or maybe Harry meant 3 out of 6. (I am not worthy...) Kakuryu will probably be MK by then, so...

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Perhaps Taikai gave it to Mitsuki to get his pittance back from Oshu later on...

Of course, if Osh continues to win (and stay in the yusho race), then Taikai will have to beat (vs. "beat") the gachinko Goeido, and also Harumafuji to get his KK. But we still don't know whether HMFJ can be "beat," do we?

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Really should learn not to post before 7am... I meant 4 of 7 and was trying to think of the possibilities. Perhaps I subconsciously calculated that he can only get 3 at most.

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