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Jejima

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Dive or no dive?? The end looked so theatrical to me, with Harumafuji doing an awesome cartwheel brought about by a small ass-bump from U..- Edit-a sakatottari, apparently. Edited by Kintamayama

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Dive or no dive?? The end looked so theatrical to me, with Harumafuji doing an awesome cartwheel brought about by a small ass-bump from U..

Tricky one. It looked legit right until the booty bump to me too... Then..... But Harry still needs to win two more? So surely he has no reason to take a dive (and he has always been my suggested non-member of the OBSC), unless he is confident of beating Baruto (who looks in a bad way at present), and possibly Osh - who is looking pretty good this basho, if Harry can't defeat Aran tomorrow....

Edited by Jejima

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Dive or no dive?? The end looked so theatrical to me, with Harumafuji doing an awesome cartwheel brought about by a small ass-bump from U..

I agree, Harumafuji's move reminded me of soccer players taking dives - with the difference that they do it to get a free kick or invoke a yellow card for their opponent...

However, all OBSC theories notwithstanding, who would have thought before the basho that Kaio would finish 2-1 against the O(h...!)-zeki.

Edited by kuroimori

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Dive or no dive?? The end looked so theatrical to me, with Harumafuji doing an awesome cartwheel brought about by a small ass-bump from U..- Edit-a sakatottari, apparently.

Hate to do it, but I have to vote it as a gimme. No effort at all from Dirty Harry.

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I'm not sure it was a legit bout, but the end didn't seem like a dive to me. It's a bit hidden from Kaio's body on the stream but you can indeed see the sakatottari throwcoming after the hip check. Originally I also thought the fall was a bit ridiculous from a little hip check but with the throw coming along, it doesn't seem staged (the fall at least).

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I'm not sure it was a legit bout, but the end didn't seem like a dive to me. It's a bit hidden from Kaio's body on the stream but you can indeed see the sakatottari throwcoming after the hip check. Originally I also thought the fall was a bit ridiculous from a little hip check but with the throw coming along, it doesn't seem staged (the fall at least).

After reading Doitsuyama's comment (above), I have watched the video again (thanks to Kintamayama), and I think I agree with Doits. But the angle on the live feed wasn't great. If anyone recorded the NHK feed (with slo-mo?), I (for one) would be keen to take another look.

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I'm not sure it was a legit bout, but the end didn't seem like a dive to me. It's a bit hidden from Kaio's body on the stream but you can indeed see the sakatottari throwcoming after the hip check. Originally I also thought the fall was a bit ridiculous from a little hip check but with the throw coming along, it doesn't seem staged (the fall at least).

After reading Doitsuyama's comment (above), I have watched the video again (thanks to Kintamayama), and I think I agree with Doits. But the angle on the live feed wasn't great. If anyone recorded the NHK feed (with slo-mo?), I (for one) would be keen to take another look.

Another angle (and the original comments of the NHK feed) would be nice, but as for the slo-mo of the NSK feed, if you're using vlc player, you can slow down the video by clicking on the "<<"-button.

I also can't wait to have another look at that bout - as well as the other rare sakatottari win today.

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Impossible to tell if that bout was staged, but I think Harry could afford to give this one away - all he has to do is beat Aran and one of the two already kachi-koshi ozeki and he'll get his eight.

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I also can't wait to have another look at that bout - as well as the other rare sakatottari win today.

It's here, but the two sakatottaris don't seem to have anything in common, no?

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And tottari is essentially a submission hold, especially from Kaio. If Kaio had a solid hold, H. may have rolled out of it just to save his arm. One doesn't need OBSC to explain H. quitting in that situation. In fact it may have required a high degree of wrestling intuition and athleticism just to escape for the day.

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And tottari is essentially a submission hold, especially from Kaio. If Kaio had a solid hold, H. may have rolled out of it just to save his arm. One doesn't need OBSC to explain H. quitting in that situation. In fact it may have required a high degree of wrestling intuition and athleticism just to escape for the day.

But surely if Kaio won by sakatottari then Harumafuji was the one doing the tottari.

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I'll give props to Kaio for this clean win- HaruAMAfuji never seemed to have good balance in the match; once he lost his arm bar at the edge Kaio used his physical asset to move Harus' center of gravity out of the ring. The somersault was more pronounced because of the 2 foot drop off to the floor. The result was similar to the earlier sakatottari when Kakizoe lost his balance in spite of having the arm bar on Toyozakura. Thanks to Kintamayama for providing both feeds so that we can continue this lively discussion!

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I think it was like the WWE stage matches: Noone can lose by his own finisher! ;-) (In a state of confusion...)

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Harumafuji's fall looked pretty normal. What might prompt one to think the bout was fixed is how Harumafuji developed his "sumo" throughout the confrontation. After a very anxious-looking preparation, he went straight for a migi-no-uwate like Kotoshogiku did but which he never grabbed though it was open for him, then shifted to a nodowa attack as if absolutely necessary and Kaio were very great a opponent at this stage, and this seemingly strong onrush was actually weak so as to render the Mongolian a loss. It is indeed hard to tell, but his usual speed turned impotent rush was a strange happening.

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I'm not sure it was a legit bout, but the end didn't seem like a dive to me. It's a bit hidden from Kaio's body on the stream but you can indeed see the sakatottari throwcoming after the hip check. Originally I also thought the fall was a bit ridiculous from a little hip check but with the throw coming along, it doesn't seem staged (the fall at least).

After reading Doitsuyama's comment (above), I have watched the video again (thanks to Kintamayama), and I think I agree with Doits. But the angle on the live feed wasn't great. If anyone recorded the NHK feed (with slo-mo?), I (for one) would be keen to take another look.

I found a different angle on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5QV1KE5y0&t=1m13s

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I'm not sure it was a legit bout, but the end didn't seem like a dive to me. It's a bit hidden from Kaio's body on the stream but you can indeed see the sakatottari throwcoming after the hip check. Originally I also thought the fall was a bit ridiculous from a little hip check but with the throw coming along, it doesn't seem staged (the fall at least).

After reading Doitsuyama's comment (above), I have watched the video again (thanks to Kintamayama), and I think I agree with Doits. But the angle on the live feed wasn't great. If anyone recorded the NHK feed (with slo-mo?), I (for one) would be keen to take another look.

I found a different angle on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5QV1KE5y0&t=1m13s

Thanks. I'm suspicious again.

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And again: The fact that we entertain ourselves discussing these things over and over again is as good as proof.

Hmm, what? By inversion: If nobody was talking about it, we could be sure that nothing is going on? Since Japanese fans mostly don't bother debating it, we're at a bit of an intellectual crossroads here, then...

Not that I personally doubt something is going on, but "people are talking about it" can be used to justify believing anything. Given some of your recent pro-enlightenment comments over at ST (which I wholeheartedly agree with, BTW) I'd hope you of all people would be wary of that type of uncritical acceptance of some particular viewpoint.

Argh, gone off-topic in under 100 words...

Edited by Asashosakari

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man, I thought it was a clean win until I saw this alternate angle. The way Harumafuji falls does look very suspicious from that angle...

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man, I thought it was a clean win until I saw this alternate angle. The way Harumafuji falls does look very suspicious from that angle...

And Kaio doesn't appear to put as much effort and torque into it as he did in the other angle, but slo mo can do weird things.

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As we seem to be coming full circle now, as I said at the start, nobody flies out of the ring after receiving a tame butt-butt, not even from the mighty U, every possible angle notwithstanding. It just does not happen naturally. Unless of course you make it happen.

Edited by Kintamayama

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What I'm seeing from the new angle is Kaio firmly locking Haruma's elbow to his chest. Given Haruma's momentum at that time, he did well to somersault out of that lock unless he wanted the elbow to snap.

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I thought what you said was be plausible, but no; I watched it a few more times and it looks more set up. In slo mo it should make it more clear (rather than less) whether Kaio got a good underarm grip on Haruma's arm, and it is very clear that he doesn't, yet Haruma does somersaulting dive out of the dohyo anyway.

And don't get me wrong, I want to believe - I was in the kokugikan screaming my lungs out in support of Kaio in the minutes leading up to his upset win over Hakuho, which is also the last time Hakuho was defeated - but the visual evidence (and not just this bout or basho of course) makes it hard.

Discounting this particular bout, is there anybody at all out there who wants to put up any money against Kaio getting his kachikoshi? I didn't think so.

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I understand the arguments against. However, from that most recent angle Kaio didn't have the elbow locked nor did he apply near enough torque to do any damage thus causing the somersault escape. This one was a gimme.

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Against my better judgement, I suggest that the Kyokai is facing an attendance disaster in Fukuoka if Kaio does not appear. Could the word have gone out that if you can afford a loss, give him a break? I didn't say that.

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