Post Basho YDC meeting

[Jonosuke 28]

At their regular post basho meeting at the Ryogoku Kokugikan on January 26, Yokozuna Deliberation Committee Chairman Katsuji Ebisawa indicated all members were praising Asashoryu from coming back from kyujo and winning the yusho in such a fine fashion.

However some members voiced their displeasure on Asashoryu's dohyo manners especially extra shoves as well as raising a clenched fist after the yusho kettei-sen bout.

The Kyokai's chair Musashigawa oyakata (former Yokozuna Mienoumi) told them his intention to personally meet with Asashoryu and caution him.

"Sumo should begin and end with a bow, proper etiquette should be observed. We should note it will definitely carry a certain weight when the chairman himself will issue a caution," Ebisawa said.

Ebisawa is ending his 10 year term as the member and the chairmanship will be handed over to Takuhiko Tsuruta, former president of the Nihon Keizai Shimbun newspaper. Makiko Uchidate missed the meeting as she has been ill since last December.

Katsuji Ebisawa, YDC Chairman

-------------------------------------

"Ozumo places utmost importance to the traditions and beauty of its form. Asashoryu's behavior should be a matter of serious discussion for this committee. We hope both yokozuna do not get themselves feel too proud of their successes and do all they can to talk and conduct themselves to be the example of all other rikishi."

Takuhiko Tsuruta. new YDC Chairman

--------------------------------------------

"Asashoryu has really done well this basho. Personally I wasn't bothered by his 'manner' (after the yusho kettei-sen). I'd like to do my best to serve as the new chairman so that all sekitori can display their best sumo."

Yoshio Ishibashi, YDC member

------------------------------------

"I think Asashoryu has done everything he could possibly do in this basho. The problem is his manner. What we have to do from now on may be up to Asashoryu himself but I am confident it will go in a positive direction."

Tanosuke Sawamura, YDC member and kabuki actor

------------------------------------------------------------

"I am not happy about Asashoryu's dohyo behavior after his win but it may be a difference in background. As far as so called his extra shoves, personally I feel it's his attraction."

[Fukurou 534]

However some members voiced their displeasure on Asashoryu's dohyo manners especially extra shoves as well as raising a clenched fist after the yusho kettei-sen bout.

The Kyokai's chair Musashigawa oyakata (former Yokozuna Mienoumi) told them his intention to personally meet with Asashoryu and caution him.

"Sumo should begin and end with a bow, proper etiquette should be observed. We should note it will definitely carry a certain weight when the chairman himself will issue a caution," Ebisawa said

.

.

.

Katsuji Ebisawa, YDC Chairman

-------------------------------------

"Ozumo places utmost importance to the traditions and beauty of its form. Asashoryu's behavior should be a matter of serious discussion for this committee. We hope both yokozuna do not get themselves feel too proud of their successes and do all they can to talk and conduct themselves to be the example of all other rikishi."

.

.

.

Yoshio Ishibashi, YDC member

------------------------------------

"I think Asashoryu has done everything he could possibly do in this basho. The problem is his manner. What we have to do from now on may be up to Asashoryu himself but I am confident it will go in a positive direction."

Oh, heaven forbid somebody show some emotion on the dohyo. I guess robots really are better than people in Japan.

Tanosuke Sawamura, YDC member and kabuki actor

------------------------------------------------------------

"I am not happy about Asashoryu's dohyo behavior after his win but it may be a difference in background. As far as so called his extra shoves, personally I feel it's his attraction."

Of course, if he shows no emotion, then where does his "attraction" go?

Asa continues to be damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't.

Edited January 26, 2009 by Fukurou

[Father_V 0]

Takuhiko Tsuruta. new YDC Chairman

--------------------------------------------

"Asashoryu has really done well this basho. Personally I wasn't bothered by his 'manner' (after the yusho kettei-sen). I'd like to do my best to serve as the new chairman so that all sekitori can display their best sumo."

Finally! One of these people actually has some sense!

[Barang 0]

I guess that intai is very near future for some YDC members (Neener, neener...)

[Jonosuke 28]

I guess I can make a bit of comment before you guys get all too excited but it's unlikely any of YDC members would be intai soon as it's pretty easy job. There is not much traveling done nor any stress involved. But then they don't get paid a yen for their work, except some free lunch and seat. It's possible that Ms Uchidate may give up her seat soon because of her illness.

First Ozumo is not just another sport. We all know it is steeped in traditions and they continue to operate according to the traditions as well as their charter as a foundation with their aim to dissipate the traditions and practice of Sumo.

What other sport will mandate its participants to make an offering or peform a ceremony at a religious institution? Ozeki and yokozuna can get into the inner grounds of the Ise Jingu Shrine, arguably the most holy shinto shrine in Japan to make an offering. You and I can't do that. The yokozuna do their ceremonial dohyo-iri at the Meiji Jingu Shrine every new year. They even have a jungyo at (gulp!) Yasukuni Shrine. It's all part of Ozumo.

The dohyo is considered to be a sacred ground. If you ever go to a dohyo matsuri just prior to the basho, they even do a Shinto ceremony to bury the goods in the dohyo. Basically the rikishi are standing on top of them when they step on to the dohyo.

Ozumo can trace its roots to their samurai bushi-do days. When two combatants face each other with their sword, the winner is the one who likely killed his opponent. You really don't jump up and shout a Bravo after killing a man. In Japanese martial arts whether Karate or Judo bouts, just like in Ozumo, you begin and end your match with a bow. Having a proper manner is not only essential but also fundamental in these competitions. Ozumo only is trying to observe its own traditions and it's not something new so they won't change their way any time soon.

[Babaryutaikai 1]

And what about Takanohana's display when he beat Musashimaru that time? (Neener, neener...)

[Mark Buckton 1]

did he wave to the fans on the second floor from the dohyo?

after

swing/pumping his arms

before

walking down the hanamichi high five(ing) all the way?

or,

did he simply lose momentary focus, clench his fists and grimace before returning to his position to bow?

[Coo-cook 0]

I guess I can make a bit of comment before you guys get all too excited but it's unlikely any of YDC members would be intai soon as it's pretty easy job. There is not much traveling done nor any stress involved. But then they don't get paid a yen for their work, except some free lunch and seat. It's possible that Ms Uchidate may give up her seat soon because of her illness.

First Ozumo is not just another sport. We all know it is steeped in traditions and they continue to operate according to the traditions as well as their charter as a foundation with their aim to dissipate the traditions and practice of Sumo.

What other sport will mandate its participants to make an offering or peform a ceremony at a religious institution? Ozeki and yokozuna can get into the inner grounds of the Ise Jingu Shrine, arguably the most holy shinto shrine in Japan to make an offering. You and I can't do that. The yokozuna do their ceremonial dohyo-iri at the Meiji Jingu Shrine every new year. They even have a jungyo at (gulp!) Yasukuni Shrine. It's all part of Ozumo.

The dohyo is considered to be a sacred ground. If you ever go to a dohyo matsuri just prior to the basho, they even do a Shinto ceremony to bury the goods in the dohyo. Basically the rikishi are standing on top of them when they step on to the dohyo.

Ozumo can trace its roots to their samurai bushi-do days. When two combatants face each other with their sword, the winner is the one who likely killed his opponent. You really don't jump up and shout a Bravo after killing a man. In Japanese martial arts whether Karate or Judo bouts, just like in Ozumo, you begin and end your match with a bow. Having a proper manner is not only essential but also fundamental in these competitions. Ozumo only is trying to observe its own traditions and it's not something new so they won't change their way any time soon.

Wow. What an amazing culture and custom......(You must be going through hell witnessing these bloody Mongolians (and some other gaijins) ruining your fine culture and traditions and causing all kinds of trouble. Sorry for that.)

Well, on the bright side ....not everything is ruined I hope. You have strong defenders of your culture including cartoonists, writers, oyokatas, rikishis and ordinary volks of Japan who all follow their traditions by book.....Even in this small forum we have you, Jonosuke-san, Mark Buckton and others. So, Japan should be pretty safe, me think.

By the way, I like your comments and everyday Rikishi talks you posting. Thank you very much.

[Bilu 0]

Though I was thrilled watching Asa beat Hakuho in the kettei-sen, I must admit I felt uneasy seeing him waving as he did, while standing on the dohyo.

A talk from the Rijicho might be in place...

Edited January 27, 2009 by Bilu

[Mark Buckton 1]

If I were to go to Mongolia and disrepect Genghis Khan

think Genghis was Japanese anyway wasn't he? Yoshitsune and all that. Fled his bro, headed north, hung a left, Bob's your uncle - and Mongolia had a leader. (Neener, neener...)

Seriously though - 2 things on that Q always interested me - why are there apparently Mongolian tales of Genghis first appearing with blood on his hands (meaning experienced in warface) - and the Ainu in Hokkaido having shrines all over to Yoshitsune - the Ainu in Hokkaido too!

[paolo 0]

did he wave to the fans on the second floor from the dohyo?

after

swing/pumping his arms

before

walking down the hanamichi high five(ing) all the way?

or,

did he simply lose momentary focus, clench his fists and grimace before returning to his position to bow?

Mark, I understand your (and Jonosuke's) point, but as a Western I find it hard to believe that such attitudes are so severely considered. I would tend to think that a "normal" (so to say) reaction on the part of the traditionalists could be a smile : " funny that a Yokozuna is so happy for a win and behaves like that..." and not a scream: "this f@!#ing Yokozuna is sc@#!ing up Sumo". After all, the crowd did not seem to disapprove him and responded with great enthusiasm to his gestures, and along the hanamichi many people were there to congratulate him and not to disapprove him. Are you sure that in this moment this does make harm to sumo and, even if it does not make part of the tradition, is not positive ? Thanks.

[Sasanishiki 57]

Are you sure that in this moment this does make harm to sumo and, even if it does not make part of the tradition, is not positive ? Thanks.

It is customary to be stoic on the dohyo and in the arena. The time for showing jubilation has usually ben reserved for interviews with the press, particularly when undertaking the open-top car ride after the yusho.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

And Asashoryu seems to have "time & place" issues. Not that his actions themselves are bad or wrong, per se. But, he chooses to ignore the traditional or expected time and place for certain actions. Habitually.

[slt 8]

I'm a big fan of Asashoryu, and was ecstatic when I saw him win the yusho. That said, I DID cringe a bit when I saw him parading off from the dohyo downwards... I'm not too sure if it was simply because I thought that would cost him a reprimand of some sort from the YDC - or if it's because I've slowly started to feel uneasy myself at seeing that sort of thing.

That said ; both Takanohana (v. Musashimaru) and Asa now had particular reasons to be overjoyed at these specific victories. I think the YDC would've been harsher if the gestures had occurred after a "normal" yusho bout.

[Asashosakari 18,786]

Are you sure that in this moment this does make harm to sumo and, even if it does not make part of the tradition, is not positive ? Thanks.

It is customary to be stoic on the dohyo and in the arena.

And it's sure not an anti-Mongolian thing...even that model of hinkaku, Tochiazuma, was criticized for doing the fist-pump after one of his yusho victories (I think Kyushu 2003).

[Mark Buckton 1]

really? who criticised him? (Whistling...)

a picture of that image still hangs in my local soba place. (Nodding yes...)

[Jonosuke 28]

I understand some will take it personally whenever the subject relates to Asashoryu but the point I am making is that he went into Ozumo willingly and is staying in more than willingly. Ozumo is the most inwardly cultural activity around and I'd venture to guess most young Japanese men would not want to join for that reason alone.

I am not sure how many foreign born rikishi in Ozumo now but it appears to me 99% of them are following the traditions and manners pretty religiously (no pun intended there) whether they do understand its original significance or not. I have never heard anything negative said about his heya mate, Asasekiryu for instance. Aside from a point of whether Ozumo needs a personality or not to make it more popular, he needs to conduct and speak more like a yokozuna. While I understand some reporters do not show any respect to him as a yokozuna but then he is not dealing with them like a yokozuna. Some words he uses are pretty offensive and more fit for a yakuza hand.

Personally if Asashoryu truly wants to reform Ozumo (and there are a lot to be reformed) then there are better ways - like showing his willingness to stay in the Kyokai for one and work towards from inside. As a handful of living yokozuna with great accomplishments he certainly can make a difference. Instead he appears to be more than happy to leave a like a contract worker after his term is up.

[HenryK 38]

I've often been critical of the Kyokai (to a point where some colleagues here didn't want to talk to me any longer), but I believe the chairman has a point when he insists on sumo etiquette. There are rules and expectations on how to carry yourself in Ozumo, Asashoryu knew them when he joined. Therefore he should respect them, especially as a Yokozuna. If you want to play the ball with your hands don't play soccer. If you want to eat with your fingers don't go to a formal dinner. And if you want to jubilate after winning a bout don't do sumo.

Of course etiquette and behavior aren't everything, Asashoryu brings much to the sport otherwise, and he didn't to anything grossly out of place after the kett-eisen. But he broke (unwritten) rules and cautioning him is in order.

Edited January 27, 2009 by HenryK

[Coo-cook 0]

Wow. What an amazing culture and custom......(You must be going through hell witnessing these bloody Mongolians (and some other gaijins) ruining your fine culture and traditions and causing all kinds of trouble. Sorry for that.)

Don't know why you Mongolian guys take it so personally when Asashoryu is criticised. It's not like there is any debate about whether what he does is ok. It's not. He knows the rules manners, customs and expectations of being a yokozuna. He knows that sumo is Japans "kokugi" and represents more than just sport.

Yet despite understanding all the above he breaks the rules, codes, and traditions at will.

It's never been about his ability on the dohyo or his nationality or anything else.

If I were to go to Mongolia and disrepect Genghis Khan I doubt I'd find much sympathy. Imagine someone from another country becoming a champion in Mongolian wrestling and then refusing to follow the etiquitte. Do you think they would be allowed to get away with it as long as Asashoryu has in Japan?

Then again foreigners aren't allowed to enter the big tournaments so that problem doesn't arise. That fact always makes accusations of racism from Mongolian members hypocritical to me.

Sumo is the least prejudiced area of Japan in my experience. Asashoryus behaviour on and off the dohyo has been tolerated beyond all reasonable expectation for years. Coo-Cook you need to take off the reactionary nationalist blinkers, open your eyes and see that your countrymen are making a very good living in someone elses land, and that 99% of them have the maturity and good sense to realise that they are guests here as well as representives of their own people. Those rikishi like Hakuho understand what it means to be a yokozuna. They have respect for the country that has given them their opportunity and their actions and words mean that that respect is returned and that their hosts get a positive image of people from Mongolia.

I'm sure that Asashoryu is a proud Mongolian as well but his words and actions over the last 6 years since he became yokozuna have done far more harm than good to the image of foreigners in general and Mongolians in particular. You should be grateful for rikishi like Kyokutenho and Hakuho. Because of them people here understand that Asashoryus way of speaking and acting is a personality rather than a national trait.

People like Jonosuke understood what it meant to be a yokozuna before virtually anyone on this forum had ever even heard of the word sumo.

Next time he writes something like he did above you'd do a lot better if you tried reading and understanding rather than posting some knee-jerk reaction.

Nishinoshima,

Wait a minute. Why I should be grateful for Hakuho and Kyokutenho? Because they follow Japanese traditions, or they are competing in sumo ...for what? Or, are you implying their contributions for increasing bilateral relationships, political bonds between two countries ..etc ? .He-he.

I admit I like watching sumo and I'm happy some Mongolians doing good there. But, being grateful ?

Of course, I can imagine many Japanese might be grateful ( or, like to see) some Mongolians following Japanese traditions and so on.

(Hmm, it seems you're a bit too serious sumo fan, my friend. Good for you, Nishi.)

Jonosuke,

What I wanna say to you with my previous posting was ...please, take it easy. I don't think Asa is that harmful to Japanese tradition and society as you think. Even you Japanese seem not that serious about your "old" traditions any more . ( That's same in my country too).

Many Japanese don't follow sumo....even I dare to say that their knowledge of sumo is sometimes worst than ordinary Mongolian.

But, as I said in my previous post that Japan's traditions are safe because of people like you, Yakuru and Uchidate...many many others, maybe including some Mongolians. So don't worry, be happy .

[Gacktoh 0]

You should be grateful for rikishi like Kyokutenho and Hakuho. Because of them people here understand that Asashoryus way of speaking and acting is a personality rather than a national trait.

As an addition(to me)

Shoutenrou and Kakuryu.

And it's sure not an anti-Mongolian thing...even that model of hinkaku, Tochiazuma, was criticized for doing the fist-pump after one of his yusho victories (I think Kyushu 2003).

I think it was Hatsu-basho 2002 (playoff, vs Chiyotaikai).

Also Hakuho was criticize. It was Osaka 2007.(playoff, vs Asashouryu)

[Kuroyama 715]

Coo-cook, I'll try to make this simple for you.

Suppose the impossible were to happen, and Mongolian Wrestling became as open and welcoming to foreigners as Ozumo. Suppose further that it so happened that the strongest wrestler in Mongolia was a foreigner, so strong that virtually no native Mongolian wrestler could hope to beat him regularly.

But he doesn't do the Eagle Dance after he wins. Instead, he dances like an American football player celebrating a touchdown in the endzone.

Can you sit there and ask us to believe that no one in Mongolia would complain that he's not following the traditions of the nation or of the sport?

Of course there would be complaints. Loud ones. So don't be obtuse.

[Coo-cook 0]

Coo-cook, I'll try to make this simple for you.

Suppose the impossible were to happen, and Mongolian Wrestling became as open and welcoming to foreigners as Ozumo. Suppose further that it so happened that the strongest wrestler in Mongolia was a foreigner, so strong that virtually no native Mongolian wrestler could hope to beat him regularly.

But he doesn't do the Eagle Dance after he wins. Instead, he dances like an American football player celebrating a touchdown in the endzone.

Can you sit there and ask us to believe that no one in Mongolia would complain that he's not following the traditions of the nation or of the sport?

Of course there would be complaints. Loud ones. So don't be obtuse.

He-he. Thanks Kuroyama. You really made thinks simple as black and white for me. Probably Mongols would complain about Eagle Dance thing ...but, we probably want complain when that same foreign born champion would play charity soccer game for kids in his home country (for few minutes). That's a difference here.

Well, the question I'm trying to ask here was.... whether all these complains of Asa's behavior is pure sumo-do matter or behind it hides very simple grudge of Japanese seeing two foreigners (and specifically Asians) dominating their sport at moment. I think, Japanese never experienced Japanese Yokozuna-less period in their whole history until now. Must be very frustrating time for them. You can feel the frustration even from Jonosuke's (who usually let me believe that he's well balanced and fair with his posting) TV rating discussion here.

Hope, Japanese Yokozuna will calm the situation and balance things.

[Chiyozakura 130]

He-he. Thanks Kuroyama. You really made thinks simple as black and white for me. Probably Mongols would complain about Eagle Dance thing ...but, we probably want complain when that same foreign born champion would play charity soccer game for kids in his home country (for few minutes). That's a difference here.

You have just disqualified yourself here proving that you just want to turn this into a Japanese anti-Mongolian thing without thinking about what really happened. The soccer story has been discussed to death. If you think it was only about playing with kids in Mongolia look at the old threads again. Maybe you will understand the matter then, but probably you do not want to.

The point Nishinoshima was trying to make in regards to Hakuho and Kyokutenho is that if it only were for Asashoryu as a Mongolian sumotori one might get the impression that Mongolians in general are careless egoists that only take what they can get without any interest in the common sense. Of course they are not. But this is the impression one can get from the person Asashoryu (not the Mongolian people) and some forums members, both Mongolian and non-Mongolian. And I probably do not have to explain to you especially that there are people that turn single opinions into their view of a whole nation.

Personally I hope he will retire soon. During the matches he is great, but his behaviour is often enough not worthy of a Yokozuna.

[Mark Buckton 1]

at the risk of splitting one of Nishi's few remaining hairs (sorry Nish) :-D when was it Akebono too Japanese nationality?

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

at the risk of splitting one of Nishi's few remaining hairs (sorry Nish) :-D when was it Akebono too Japanese nationality?

True, Akebono took citizenship. But, is/was he considered Japanese? As I'm sure you well know, they are considered two very different things.