Ozeki 'co-operation'

[Kozaru 0]

(Help, I need a "meta comment" smiley...)

Glad that people are at least discussing this and not calling me names :-)

The following isn't intended to be snarky, since I'm genuinely glad you've decided to participate here outside of the Games section, but...please do tone down the smugness a tiny little bit. We're not particularly given to calling people names around here, but some relative newcomer starting out with the following:

If you think this kind of discussion ruins the basho, just don't click on it anymore!

or

Does that answer your question? Will you consider my theory now? I think those were pretty damn good answers.

...isn't going to help. Especially when the first of those statements comes in response to Kintamayama who really is one of the most mellow guys on this or any contentious issue on this forum. Besides, I have a strong suspicion he slipped a clever double entendre right by you with that "factual lies" quip, which makes your response inadvertantly hilarious.

Yes, you don't seem to call people names, and I thank you for it. If you know where I'm coming from (and I know that you do, Asasho), you'll hopefully understand what I meant. That's all I should say about that.

The first comment was sincere. I used to be a huge WWF fan, even of course knowing that it was just a show. But then I got into reading 'inside information' on the internet, and became one of the people who knew the results of matches and storylines before they ever aired. It ruined a lot of the fun for me, and I had to stop (ie. by not clicking on it anymore). Even if the show is fake, such as a movie, knowing the ending typically ruins the fun. So yes, if people don't want to read something that might drain the fun, avoid it!

The tone of a post can be hard to determine, especially for people who don't know each other well, but even for good friends. You should know that I'm almost always the tongue-in-cheek kind of person, and am very friendly online, unless I'm seriously provoked. Perhaps my mistake is showing my personality before people expect it of me, but they'll never expect it of me unless I show it. A bit of a paradox. Anyway, we might get to know each other better in the future. For now, please trust that I'm not here to start fights or to disrespect anybody for having an opposing opinion. If I wanted that, well..... you know....

Edited November 25, 2008 by Kozaru

[Peeter 15]

Avert the eyes a little from topic: Life is not fair! Why we don't see Kotomitsuki-Kotoshogiku-Kotooshu bouts - they have quality index lesser than others sanyaku rikishis with the same sucess...

If Ama & Baruto will be healthy next year, mentally & physically - all could/would change to ozeki rank? Mathematics and respect between ozekis would be not so easy in future, maybe, we'll see! :-)

Edited November 25, 2008 by Peeter

[Gusoyama 93]

Yes, you don't seem to call people names, and I thank you for it. If you know where I'm coming from (and I know that you do, Asasho), you'll hopefully understand what I meant. That's all I should say about that.

Its okay, I know its me(and maybe others) that you're talking about. The difference between your argument and the argument by others is that they are looking at one specific bout, that they "know" will end one way or another, and find the telltale signs to back that up. They're looking for data to fit their conclusion. With a larger set of data, and a calmer, more reasonable argument, you are more likely to get your point across successfully.

[Asashosakari 18,670]

I'll even take this a step further. Relative newcomers (Japanese, to be sure) like Goueidou, Houmashou, or Tochiouzan and Toyohibiki (when available) would NEVER beat a veteran Ozeki teetering on the brink of MK, and not always because they are not capable of it.

I wonder if that's somewhat of a vicious circle. Does anybody else get the feeling that Kaio keeps hanging on so desperately because he feels there's no Japanese rikishi to take his place (and those of Taikai and Mickey) while all the youngsters seem stuck in the 9-win area? Not really the guys you mentioned other than Goeido, but Toyonoshima/Kisenosato/Kotoshogiku. An article at Sanspo today goes straight into depressovision about the approaching prospects of an entirely Japanese-free Yokozuna and Ozeki squad on the occasion of Ama's promotion, so it's obviously on somebody's mind...

Edited November 25, 2008 by Asashosakari

[Jonosuke 28]

Initially when this thread started, I thought by looking at the title it was about all ozeki cooperating with each other throughout but that was not the case, it was more like Kaio and Chiyotaikai with lesser degree Kotooshu attempting to staying in ozeki despite their mostly anemic performance.

But so far I have not seen any proof of systematic cooperation. Basically all you looking about are cases where one on the verge of Makekoshi barely escaping somehow ostensibly because of the other's magnanimity.

If you believe in a theory, you can always find examples to fit and agree with your theory while ignoring the exception like saying the last time it happened was.... I guess the point is that the exception did happen and you will need to explain it just like you explained it for your theory if it is truly systematic. I actually recall Kaio already 10 or 11 wins and beat Chiyotaikai on Day 14 or so. Taikai ended up losing to Asashoryu on the Senshuraku and went on Makekoshi eventually.

I do agree both Chiyotaikai and Kaio have been competing way more than they should be - but there are a lot of sumo fans who want to keep seeing them active and they oblige. Personally I don't see anything wrong with it. Since they have been at it for quite long time and if you want to prove the theory of systematic cooperation among ozeki, you will need to look at all their bouts since they got promoted. If you are just talking about a friendly give and take by two physically ravaged guys who have troubles just getting out of bed every morning in the last several years, you don't call it an ozeki cooperation.

If one gets kachikoshi, it means more than just simply your rank preservation as it will get add it to your Hosho money so it helps you throughout your career. If it affects your pocketbook, you try that much harder and more motivated to win even with a henka in some cases.

[Kintamayama 44,275]

If one gets kachikoshi, it means more than just simply your rank preservation as it will get add it to your Hosho money so it helps you throughout your career. If it affects your pocketbook, you try that much harder and more motivated to win even with a henka in some cases.

Exactly. This is a great incentive for mutual "back-scratching", and these last few years, I can't remember one single bout between a KK Ozeki and one who needed a win to go KK IN THAT BOUT that didn't end with the latter winning. It is very abnormal statistics-wise.

It's also just human nature.

[Asashosakari 18,670]

If one gets kachikoshi, it means more than just simply your rank preservation as it will get add it to your Hosho money so it helps you throughout your career. If it affects your pocketbook, you try that much harder and more motivated to win even with a henka in some cases.

I don't know, the hosho-kin increase argument seems like a red herring to me...we're talking about 2,000 yen per basho here. Do you honestly believe Kaio or Taikai derive additional motivation to get 8-7 instead of 7-8 because it will increase their salary by another $20 every two months? :-)

Seriously, if kadoban didn't exist, there's no way any ozeki would attach such special significance to that 8th win even if it still did boost their salary.

Edited November 25, 2008 by Asashosakari

[Jonosuke 28]

Seriously, if kadoban didn't exist, there's no way any ozeki would attach such special significance to that 8th win even if it still did boost their salary.

I guess you have a point there. Perhaps if they bring back Kosho system again, this current accusation of "unmotivated sumo" may not make much of dent. There are just too many walking wounded, not just in the ozeki rank but all throughout Makuuchi and Juryo.

If I recall one of the reasons they decided to do away with Kosho was perceived unfairness from some oyakata. Musashigawa complained bitterly after his Musoyama did not get a Kosho status after his (chronic?) injury. They also started to seeing too many rikishi taking Kosho with the usual two month of rest and treatment in their diagnosis.

But even with all its shortfalls, Kosho system at least let those injured rikishi to take their time recover from their injury but right now they are coming back too soon or they are not withdrawing and just keep unleashing one tachiai henka after another. I am actually in favor of restoring Kosho system.

[Kozaru 0]

Yes, you don't seem to call people names, and I thank you for it. If you know where I'm coming from (and I know that you do, Asasho), you'll hopefully understand what I meant. That's all I should say about that.

Its okay, I know its me(and maybe others) that you're talking about.

Ummmm..... maybe a little after the Ama vs. Hakuho thread, but not really. OK, so maybe nobody gets it. Gusoyama, remember that email that I (or rather, the SMG admin) sent you?

[Kozaru 0]

Initially when this thread started, I thought by looking at the title it was about all ozeki cooperating with each other throughout but that was not the case, it was more like Kaio and Chiyotaikai with lesser degree Kotooshu attempting to staying in ozeki despite their mostly anemic performance.

But so far I have not seen any proof of systematic cooperation. Basically all you looking about are cases where one on the verge of Makekoshi barely escaping somehow ostensibly because of the other's magnanimity.

You can't 'prove' something like this, only make it look extremely suspicious. And yes, I'm looking at cases of one Ozeki who needs a win badly, and always gets it from his buddies. I'm not sure why you're trying to downplay it.

If you believe in a theory, you can always find examples to fit and agree with your theory while ignoring the exception like saying the last time it happened was.... I guess the point is that the exception did happen and you will need to explain it just like you explained it for your theory if it is truly systematic. I actually recall Kaio already 10 or 11 wins and beat Chiyotaikai on Day 14 or so. Taikai ended up losing to Asashoryu on the Senshuraku and went on Makekoshi eventually.

Let me be more clear. I'm accusing the following rikishi: Chiyotaikai, Kaio, Kotooshu and Kotomitsuki. I'm accusing them in the time-frame from 2006 to present day. Hakuho never participated in this, and in the only chance he had to co-operate, he chose to go after the yusho and the Yokozuna rank, both of which he achieved. And who can blame him? Would anybody on here, anybody at all, actually expect an Ozeki to quit what looks like a Yokozuna run in order to not give a first (non-demotion) MK to another Ozeki? Hakuho had a much bigger prize in his sights, and it would be ridiculous to even consider him throwing that match.

You're also wrong about a KK Kaio facing Chiyo on Day 14 of Haru 2007. If he had, it would have shown up in the list I made. It in fact, was KOTOOSHU who beat Chiyo on Day 14, and both had 7 wins going into the match. Kootoshu lost the next day to Hakuho, so he needed the win badly. (Kaio finished that basho with 8 wins, not 10 or 11, after a Day 15 victory over already-KK Ama, who was clearly setting himself up for future favours at the Ozeki rank :-) )

I say this in the nicest possible way: I'm sorry, but it looks like you're trying really, really hard to downplay this. The Hakuho example clearly doesn't belong, and I'm not accusing him. What we saw in Haru in 2007 between Kotooshu and Chiyo was a rare case in which both Ozeki needed the win badly. Chiyotaikai was 7-5, but was finished off by a yusho-leading (one win up on Asa at the time, with Asa still to face head-to-head) Ozeki trying for the Yokozuna rank, a KK-seeking Ozeki, and a playoff-desiring Yokozuna.

If you are just talking about a friendly give and take by two physically ravaged guys who have troubles just getting out of bed every morning in the last several years, you don't call it an ozeki cooperation.

I would call it 'co-operation'. Bottom line, one Ozeki doesn't want to beat the other, and what goes around comes around. I'd call that 'co-operation', but I also made sure to use the quotes when I call it that. Call it whatever you want, call it co-operation, call it corruption, call it unfair, call it George, it doesn't matter. These Ozeki (again just to be clear, I mean Chiyotaikai, Kotooshu, Kaio and Kotomitsuki), for the past 3 years, have not been trying to win matches when they are already KK and their Ozeki opponent needs the victory.

(Edit: Oops! One of those 9 matches, back in 2006, was an already-KK Tochiazuma losing to the needy Kotooshu. So I guess I also need to drag Tochiazuma into this)

Edited November 25, 2008 by Kozaru

[Harry 67]

Would anybody on here, anybody at all, actually expect an Ozeki to quit what looks like a Yokozuna run in order to not give a first (non-demotion) MK to another Ozeki?

Well, I guess most of us want (apparently) to believe that they would always be thinking they could be starting a yokozuna run so every win counts. If its true that they really just want to spread the only 32 wins they think they can get around the four of them to avoid too many kadobans and certainly kadobans in a row then well, it would just be very sad and not worth watching which is why I'm trying not to think about it too hard.

Now, with older ozeki perhaps thinking there will never be a yokozuna run I might see it but Kotooshu and Kotomitsuki already sandbagging? Just hard to accept. They only have so many years of youth and wasting any of them playing "8 is enough" just doesn't sound believable. Who decided it was Kotooshu's turn to get a yusho? Did Ama just get an ozeki run because Kaoi wasn't there and they would spare some extra wins this basho, only needing 24 to keep the other 3 afloat? Oh, it is just terrible even thinking like this... which is why I said I wouldn't... but I am... so...

[Kozaru 0]

Would anybody on here, anybody at all, actually expect an Ozeki to quit what looks like a Yokozuna run in order to not give a first (non-demotion) MK to another Ozeki?

Well, I guess most of us want (apparently) to believe that they would always be thinking they could be starting a yokozuna run so every win counts. If its true that they really just want to spread the only 32 wins they think they can get around the four of them to avoid too many kadobans and certainly kadobans in a row then well, it would just be very sad and not worth watching which is why I'm trying not to think about it too hard.

Now, with older ozeki perhaps thinking there will never be a yokozuna run I might see it but Kotooshu and Kotomitsuki already sandbagging? Just hard to accept. They only have so many years of youth and wasting any of them playing "8 is enough" just doesn't sound believable. Who decided it was Kotooshu's turn to get a yusho? Did Ama just get an ozeki run because Kaoi wasn't there and they would spare some extra wins this basho, only needing 24 to keep the other 3 afloat? Oh, it is just terrible even thinking like this... which is why I said I wouldn't... but I am... so...

Wow, I need to cut this off before it explodes. :-) I am NOT suggesting that it goes this deep. I am merely looking at 9 matches over the last 3 years. It's best not to think about things like are Maegashira throwing matches to needy Ozeki, or Kotooshu's stablemaster buying the yusho without Kotooshu's knowledge in an attempt to motivate him. (Clapping wildly...)

[Asojima 2,870]

Wow, I need to cut this off before it explodes. :-) I am NOT suggesting that it goes this deep.

I see nothing deep or explosive here. Review all of the postings and you come up with the simple impression that matches between Ozekis, neither of whom has acheived his 8th win, are exciting. Matches in which one or both of them has achieved KK are boring. Matches in which only one has achieved KK are predictable (yusho contention notwithstanding). We, as outside observers, have no way of knowing the level of orchestration, if any, of the bouts. Why bother. Live with the simple facts.

Edited November 26, 2008 by Asojima

[Harry 67]

Now, with older ozeki perhaps thinking there will never be a yokozuna run I might see it but Kotooshu and Kotomitsuki already sandbagging? Just hard to accept. They only have so many years of youth and wasting any of them playing "8 is enough" just doesn't sound believable.

Kotomitsuki is older than Chiyotaikai.

Thanks for the correction.

OK, two and a half weeks but Mickey always makes me think he's younger for some reason. Less than 10 years on the dohyo anyways while Chiyotaikai has been ozeki as long as Mickey's been in ozumo and those extra years of tachiais add up as I don't need to tell you.

[Kozaru 0]

I'm going to throw more fuel on the fire. In the time-frame that I've been discussing, there were two matches between Ozeki in which one was already KK, but one had 6 wins, on Days 12-14. Both of the needy Ozeki won, and both went on to KK. So I'm now going to claim that it's 11 of 11 predictable outcomes.

Interestingly, Hakuho had another chance in this category, and won again. But once again, he was 11-1 before the match, obviously in the yusho hunt.

Also once again, the pattern completely collapses if you go back earlier than 2006, this time showing the needy Ozeki getting beaten badly from 2004-2005.

http://sumodb.sumogames.com/Query_bout.asp...amp;show_form=0

[Zingo 0]

Hmmm

[Kozaru 0]

I’d be very curious to know why this, possibly wasn’t the case in earlier days…

You're right, that is pretty damn interesting. So I decided to take a look at it. The results surprised me. I'm trusting that the good ol' Sumo Database is reliable, so here goes. Open this link in a separate tab and follow along with me:

http://sumodb.sumogames.com/Query_bout.asp...amp;show_form=0

OK, so we see that during the 1950's, such a possibility arose only 3 times in the entire decade! From 1960 to 1968, we see it happening much more frequently, but no suspicious pattern is noted.

But look at what happens from 1969 to 1989, a span of 21 years! That is completely suspicious, with total domination, 32/38, for needy Ozeki. This is not even considering things like yusho and Yokozuna runs, which could eliminate some matches from being throwable. Those guys must have had a game theory textbook hidden under the bed.

Also notice some of the gaps.... Whereas these matches take place very frequently in some years, there are periods, for example, 1981-1983, in which it doesn't even occur once. Then it happens 11 times in 1986-1987. Then note that from 1993-1999 (7 years!), not even one match under this scenario took place! I guess that means Ozeki used to get their KK's early on a regular basis.

From 1992-2003 (remember the big gap mentioned above), the matches appear to be legit. Then there is a gap during 2004-2005 where no matches took place, then the current pattern that we see today begins in 2006. I've only been watching sumo since 2005, so I can't describe the attitudes of past eras, but maybe somebody else can enlighten us. When were the current Ozeki demotion rules created? What were the rules before? That could go a long way to explaining the trends we see over the years.

Edited November 26, 2008 by Kozaru

[Zingo 0]

think that you're on the core here by saying that " I guess that means Ozeki used to get their KK's early on a regular basis."... If all ozekis compete in an "expected" way, thay'd all be KK before internal match-ups and all of our current discussion would implode... Again without proper historical insight, i guess that the "lousy performance" of the ozekigroup*, all basically at the same time, for along time gives birth to the observed behavour... Exceptions given for Asa and Hakuho that "rushed" through the ozeki rank whereas "the fab four", at least from what could be judged from the current performance, have reached their peak...

*I include Musoyama and Tochiazuma in this reasoningas well...

Edited November 26, 2008 by Zingo

[Chiyozakura 128]

Also notice some of the gaps.... Whereas these matches take place very frequently in some years, there are periods, for example, 1981-1983, in which it doesn't even occur once. Then it happens 11 times in 1986-1987. Then note that from 1993-1999 (7 years!), not even one match under this scenario took place! I guess that means Ozeki used to get their KK's early on a regular basis.

While I basically agree with the feeling that the Ozeki are doing each other favors in case of wins needed for kachi koshi, your arguments are at times a little strange. Of course there are gaps. In 1981 there were basho without a single Ozeki on the banzuke. From 1993 to 1999 you had only one Ozeki with Musashimaru who was not from Futagoyama Beya, and he was most of the time close to Yokozuna promotion. Under these conditions there can be no such matchups. 1986-1987 on the other hand you had up to five Ozeki for quite some bashos. I am not an expert in math or statistcs, but I have the impression that the number of examples has to be much bigger to prove something. But as I said, the feeling can arise.

Maybe in January we will see the end to this discussions as Kaio might have to call it quits and Chiyotaikai might decide to retire after ten years as an Ozeki...

[Kozaru 0]

Chiyozakura, yeah, my arguments are sometimes a little strange, but also sometimes I'm not making arguments. I'm only arguing for 2006-present day, because I don't have a fricking clue what I'm talking about before 2005. When I started watching sumo, Asashoryu was a Yokozuna. So I'll find the patterns in historical statistics, and open it up to the rest of you more experienced people to explain why such things happened. So thanks for that.

I was trained in math and science, and I think we have enough data over the last few years to see a pattern emerging that wouldn't be there if it were totally legitimate. For 11 matches to all go a specific way, even with 60% odds on the motivated rikishi, would only have a 0.36% chance of occurring. As I said before, you can't 'prove' something with this method, but you can make things look suspicious and make theories look convincing. The only way for me to prove it would be to put on a crapload of weight, grow my hair, and sneak into the sumo locker room with a microphone and recorder hidden in my mawashi to catch them in the act of planning. But as some have mentioned above, this likely has no planning involved at all, just a silent understanding.

And yeah, I think it's time to put an end to the Kaio-Chiyotaikai thing.

Edited November 26, 2008 by Kozaru

[Jakusotsu 5,757]

And yeah, I think it's time to put an end to the Kaio-Chiyotaikai thing.

My first reaction was "how dare You!", but the longer I think about it, perhaps You're right... ;-)

[Jonosuke 28]

I still don't know why you need to throw away an exception (Hakuho) if you are trying to prove "ozeki cooperation" as he was an ozeki then. So in each one of your cases looking at from the other side may be an exception to throw away. Whether the game theory or whatever mathematical theory you are trying to prove, if you keep saying let's restrict this to the four rikishi, then it doesn't cover all. It's just the four rikishi merry go around doing musical chair, not all ozeki.

The thing about all this and Freakonomics is that why wait till you get to 7-7? Why not just take care of it on Day 13 or 12 or whatever to get Kachikoshi, if he is going to try to get a fix in the first place. You never know what's going to happen on the last day. You could get hit by a cab while going to the venue or slip while trying to get up on the dohyo or have a gallstone taken out and you lose despite all the good intentions on both sides. A bout could be over in a second and one trip you will lose unexpectedly whether there was some kind of plan or not.

My point is these 7-7 premeditated bouts are meaningless as you are leaving it to a chance in the last minute if you really want to get kachikoshi by plan. If you want to get Kachikoshi, you want to get it over as quickly as possible. You do it earlier so that you can sleep better. In that case whatever happens on the Senshuraku has a little value other than add or take off a bout from your total.

Since ozeki bouts likely count more compared to hiramaku bouts, you probably won't have to pay as much. If you need to keep paying to extend your career, it certainly becomes more economical to deal with hiramaku than with other ozeki. It becomes only meaningful if you have gone through all yours bouts seriously and had not planned that way intentionally. And I say those leaving it to 7-7 on the senshuraku to be devoid of the good pre-planning or they would not put themselves on such predicament.

Edited November 26, 2008 by Jonosuke

[Kozaru 0]

For Jonosuke (with respect to moderator status):

"if you keep saying let's restrict this to the four rikishi, then it doesn't cover all"

Yes, it doesn't cover all! I'm not even accusing Hakuho, or any Ozeki other than Kotooshu, Tochiazuma, Kotomitsuki, Chiyotaikai and Kaio. I don't know how much clearer I can possibly be on this point, and other readers are probably getting tired of seeing me write it. Hakuho was looking for two things, yusho and Yokozuna promotion. He did not require any charity, and did not give any (or not much, at least). Those who require it, also give it. This is not, and never has been, about ALL Ozeki for ALL time. I used the term "Ozeki co-operation", because all 5 of the people I'm accusing are/were Ozeki. Can we finally exclude Hakuho, and all other Ozeki, from this argument (at least until we find something to suggest they need to be brought into it)?

Some other points:

1. You did not acknowledge your previous, and false, objection that an already-KK Kaio defeated Chiyotaikai in Haru 2007. It simply isn't true.

2. You spent 3 paragraphs wondering about why they leave it until senshuraku, which is the core of your new argument, but you ignore the fact that I have covered Days 12-15 in my theory. I think I demonstrated that they don't leave it until senshuraku, they take the opportunity to give the win WHENEVER it occurs, as demonstrated by a total lack of Day 13 or 14 exceptions to the pattern. Of the 11 matches that I'm citing, 6 took place on Day 15, 3 on Day 14, and 2 on Day 13. This is a straw-man argument.

3. "If you need to keep paying to extend your career, it certainly becomes more economical to deal with hiramaku than with other ozeki." Nobody here is accusing anybody of paying anything for anything. Silent understanding is the most likely arrangement. It's another straw-man.

I think it's very clear that you have a strong interest in seeing these kinds of allegations discredited, and we all do, we'd love to think it isn't true. Your 3 main arguments so far have been that it doesn't include all Ozeki, that a '10 or 11 win' Kaio beat Chiyo in Haru 2007, and that they are foolish to wait until senshuraku. None of these arguments are true or relevant to my case.

Edited November 26, 2008 by Kozaru

[tsurunoissei 0]

You don't think I WANT TO BELIEVE that it's legitimate? I do, so much! Seeing this kind of thing happen, while being good for my Sumo Game picks, does drain some of the fun out of the basho. But it has become plainly obvious that these current Ozeki are working together on some level.

The data points which you present should not exist at all. To begin with, not only is it the general expectation that ozeki should win at least 10 matches, but also that they should be in the yusho race at least until they start fighting one another. So, bouts between ozeki who have kachi-koshi, but are not in the yusho race, and those who are in danger of going kado-ban, should not happen often enough to be statistically meaningful.

Yet, as we all know, these last couple of years, it is a newsworthy event when all ozeki win on any given day. Clearly, this is because they are not only reaching the end of their careers, but also because, in any given basho, most of them are fighting injured. In fact, it is a rare basho when none of the ozeki are kado-ban.

Is it any wonder, then, that an ozeki who, having been fighing through his pain to avoid make-koshi, should do no more than stand up at the tachi-ai and let himself be pushed out, once he had his eighth win?

Once the current crop of veteran ozeki have either healed, or (more likely) retired, your data points will return to their pre-2006 values.

Edited November 27, 2008 by tsurunoissei

[Jonosuke 28]

For Jonosuke (with respect to moderator status):

When I argue (!?) here, I never put a moderator hat on. When I do, I send a message to you.

Actually I have nothing against what you are trying to prove because if I get tired of you then I just stop writing and ignore you. I think you brought up an interesting angle to it which we all suspected one time or another and attempt to prove it by using the past stats.

My point is simply this, the stats don't prove this kind of "agreement" or "tacit play" - if it happens then it won't be proved by adding up numbers.

Because your basis is basically between ozeki, they should have 50-50 bouts and if the results stray far, you suspect something. But that is not really the case at all. Given a basho, some are injured badly and they may be in no condition to beat another ozeki caliber rikishi, injured or not. And some basho some excel beyond their and our imagination such as Kotosohu's yusho basho. I don't remember how many times Kotomitsuki lost to Asashoryu but it's nowhere near what a typical yokozuna and ozeki winning and losing percentage should be. Some guys can't beat some other guy like Kotonowaka to Takanohana and Arase to Kitanoumi, Akinoshima to Kotonishiki. That's just the way it is.

I am not saying you are wrong in suspecting in some tacit approval between certain rikishi but what I am saying is you really can't prove them by numbers or prove it is a systematic symptom of all ozeki.

1. You did not acknowledge your previous, and false, objection that an already-KK Kaio defeated Chiyotaikai in Haru 2007. It simply isn't true.

You assumed it was Haru 2007. I was thinking about November 2004.

I think it's very clear that you have a strong interest in seeing these kinds of allegations discredited, and we all do, we'd love to think it isn't true. Your 3 main arguments so far have been that it doesn't include all Ozeki, that a '10 or 11 win' Kaio beat Chiyo in Haru 2007, and that they are foolish to wait until senshuraku. None of these arguments are true or relevant to my case.

Not at all. I think Itai likely went out and did all fix he could possibly do. Regardless of rank, non-motivated sumo happen and I think it would more likely happen in lower Juryo ranks as there are substantial differences between being a Juryo and being another chanko duty tsukebito. But it's wrong to just simply singling out certain ozeki bouts and say they were cooperating implicitly or explicitly because the numbers proved them. Because you have set your own standards to the formula. We cannot expect a certain bout to be 50-50 because depending on their physical conditions or "Genkiness" they may over or underachieve their normal ability as I pointed out Kotooshu's yusho basho or even this basho's Yoshikaze.

Sumo is individual combat so who know what happens between them in a given day but we really cannot prove there is a systematic pre-planning or scripting happens based on the numbers. In the 15 days they compete they can skew the numbers on any day or against any opponent if they so wish.