Ama vs. Hakuho

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Earlier this basho, someone suggested on the forum that it appeared that opponents were giving Hakuho too much time to set up for his own strong moves - that it would be better to attack more quicky and keep the pressure on if they were to defeat the yokozuna. IIRC, someone repeated the observation just a day or so ago. From the looks of the bout, Ama did just that.

[Blue_Wolf 24]

So you think he will give up a yusho for his friend? Really?

He might do that if Ama was on the line of yokozuna promotion. Not the ozeki promotion, no. B-) He's gonna win the yusho. But i'm not saying Ama isn't capable of beating Hakuho, he is. But today Hakuho did go out half hearthed against him, which made it much easier to beat him.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Blue_Wolf

[omoimori 0]

Aminishiki and Ama both beat Hakuho with identical shitatenage in the same spot on the dohyo. The only difference was that against Ama, Hakuho seemed to say to himself, "Oh, dear, not again!" so he put his hand down to keep from getting his face pushed in the dirt a second time.

I think the real conspiracy is that...

wait for it...

Ama and Aminishiki are working together! That's right!

Ama and Aminishiki are sharing information and scheming between themselves.

Need further proof?

Get this: both Ama and Aminishiki are in Isegahama Beya. I am willing to bet that even the oyakata was in on it!

People, there is no telling how deep this thing goes!

[Jejima 1,300]

Okay, I have now just watched the video of the bout (over at banzuke.com), and Ama's post bout interview.

I also have my radar out for 'yaocho' - and I am sure I see it often when there is nothing.... But the 'tell' signs that I look for are the pre-bout stuff, and the immediate aftermath. ....Especially the aftermath stuff. In my opinion (and I am sure that I am wrong), if I suspect yaocho, then the winner usually look 'sheepish' especially when collecting sponsors money from the gyoji - and the losers tend to 'over-act' their anger at their loss.

Sadly banzuke.com does not show any of the pre-bout stuff, but from the video - and the interview afterwards with Ama - I would presume that Ama thought he was in a genuine bout (he seems to be a little emotional in his interview, whereas he is more likely to be a bit more embarrassed if he thought the bout was 'rigged'.)

As for Hakuho, I am not so sure.... After the bout, observe his bow.... It is all but non-existant (either he is genuinely very angry with Ama, or he is 'over-acting') - which if Ama is indeed a good friend, and the fact that Ama won the bout well (and now has an excellent chance of Ozeki promotion), then it is a little rude to say the least.

I think it is quite easy for a rikishi to choose to lose, he just tries less hard than his opponent. Why would Hakuho do this? Well, if Ama is a great friend, then I think he would be very happy to see him promoted to Ozeki, perhaps even more so than getting another yusho.

However, even if Hakuho tried a little less than normal, is an Ama victory really that surprising? The difference in quality between Ama and Hakuho is not that great.... I'd guess that over 10 normal bouts, we might all agree that Ama could win 4 of them fairly (okay 3 then!). Ama has a lot on the line - and after the hiccoughs at the start of the basho, he does not seem to be a 'bottler' - so this bout means a lot to him. Hakuho is coming off an injury, and is 'only' fighting for the yusho. Even with a loss against Ama, he still leads the yusho race, and must still be favourite.

So in conclusion.... In my opinion (and I am probably wrong), Ama did not think he was involved in a yaocho match. With Hakuho I am not so certain one way or the other.

However, *if* it does come to a play-off for the yusho, I do not think it will be fixed. The reason being that I don't think Ama considered his day 12 bout to be fixed, so he has nothing to 'pay back'.

Therefore, as Ama's Ozeki promotion would already (one would presume) be in the bag, both rikishi would be wanting the yusho. I expect a great bout, and predict an emotional Ama victory (due to his momentum) in a truly non-yacho bout.

I might be wrong though B-)

[Treblemaker 254]

This bout is the real deal. All those yaocho-ists out there can theoretize all they want, because, after all this IS entertainment.

Like many others, I've gone over the bout frame by frame.

The whole thing takes under 6 seconds. Not enough time to choreograph, much less think about planning moves - this one was about attack, action and reaction. Ama was just that much ahead of Hakuho and this wasn't a simple "touch down" as the conspiratorists over at SumoTalk would have you believe. Hakuho was quite literally off his feet and flying.

The next few days should be interesting.

[Peterao 3]

I think Hakuho threw this one. Ama doesn't have to pay any penny, so it not yaocho. :-P It's only a big favor towards his ozeki promotion from his very good friend. They may even not discussed about doing it.

And about this bout looking real or fake, what's the point. If you are about to throw a bout you just don't try your best. It's easy. Well, its only my view i want to share after reading discussion.

So you think he will give up a yusho for his friend? Really?

I don't wanna get dragged into the yaocho or not discussion (personally, I couldn't care less whether or not it exists. sumo is still sumo regardless), but I fail to see how Hakuho losing, perhaps intentionally, to Ama is "giving up a yusho".

Hakuho is still tied for the yusho lead with Ama, so he still controls his own fate. If they both win three more times, and Ama is already assured his promotion, then we'll see just how willing Hakuho is give up a yusho for his friend.

[Gernobono 447]

I don't wanna get dragged into the yaocho or not discussion (personally, I couldn't care less whether or not it exists. sumo is still sumo regardless), but I fail to see how Hakuho losing, perhaps intentionally, to Ama is "giving up a yusho".

Hakuho is still tied for the yusho lead with Ama, so he still controls his own fate. If they both win three more times, and Ama is already assured his promotion, then we'll see just how willing Hakuho is give up a yusho for his friend.

thank you for this post.....i fully agree with you.....in my book this is part of the "deal"....hakuho wins in a ketteisen and he gets the yusho......ama a "valuable" promotion and all are happy...

[Kintamayama 44,231]

thank you for this post.....i fully agree with you.....in my book this is part of the "deal"....hakuho wins in a ketteisen and he gets the yusho......ama a "valuable" promotion and all are happy...

I am eagerly awaiting your scenario to fall apart (and it will..) so I can use a lot of emoticons. If it doesn't, I will use other emoticons.

[Gernobono 447]

thank you for this post.....i fully agree with you.....in my book this is part of the "deal"....hakuho wins in a ketteisen and he gets the yusho......ama a "valuable" promotion and all are happy...

I am eagerly awaiting your scenario to fall apart (and it will..) so I can use a lot of emoticons. If it doesn't, I will use other emoticons.

it does not matte which emoticons you use as i do not like any of them.....

would you also call it "fallen apart" if ama loses to miki and hakuho get the yusho straight out?

[Gernobono 447]

Jonosuke-sans comment about us amateur rikishi is spot on. I find it highly amusing when people claim they can tell if a bout is yaocho or not. I guess that's what happens when you get your "expert analysis" from people who have never even put on a mawashi or stepped on a dohyo.

i mainly agree with you.....i do not think that any of us can spot a yaocho-bout just looking at it and i simply call it ridiculous to claim "seeing" it, when a rikishi changes his grip from left to right.....but i disagree that only those wearing a mawashi in a bout can do expert analysis...

[Kintamayama 44,231]

would you also call it "fallen apart" if ama loses to miki and hakuho get the yusho straight out?

Anything that doesn't fit your scenario is fallen apart, yes..

No?

[Gernobono 447]

would you also call it "fallen apart" if ama loses to miki and hakuho get the yusho straight out?

Anything that doesn't fit your scenario is fallen apart, yes..

No?

ok...just wanted to make sure....

[Doitsuyama 1,173]

However, even if Hakuho tried a little less than normal, is an Ama victory really that surprising? The difference in quality between Ama and Hakuho is not that great.... I'd guess that over 10 normal bouts, we might all agree that Ama could win 4 of them fairly (okay 3 then!).

Well, Ama IS 5-3 against Hakuho over the last 8 basho so you can stay at 4 wins I think.

[paolo 0]

Earlier this basho, someone suggested on the forum that it appeared that opponents were giving Hakuho too much time to set up for his own strong moves - that it would be better to attack more quicky and keep the pressure on if they were to defeat the yokozuna. IIRC, someone repeated the observation just a day or so ago. From the looks of the bout, Ama did just that.

Personally I found in other bashoes that Hakuho's opponents' attitude looked very shy. It was if they thought: "ok, this is not my bout, he is big and loved, my chances are low, let's just try to avoid injuries".Hakuho simply danced his own sumo and thanked. Only few people out of the Ozeki really attacked Hakuho: Aminishiki, Ama, who else ? So 10 out of 15 bouts were quite easy, and that was a big advantage for him, of course. Even versus Asashoryu I never saw such an attitude: only some rikishi showed some "fear" sometimes, but very seldom a "sheepish" attitude. When Hakuho is attacked by people who really want to try to win, also Hakuho has got his troubles...

[Jejima 1,300]

Using the same system as announced above for looking for 'yaocho' whilst watching the Ama vs Miyabiama over the web-stream, this looked much more like a true 'yaocho' bout to me than yesterday's. Ama looked quite demure during the pre-basho stuff, and looked distinctly subdued and perhaps a little embarrassed as he collected the envelopes.

Of course I am certainly wrong, and he was probably just feeling the enormity of the situation - but that is how I look for yaocho. :-P

Any takers?

[Peeter 15]

You are accusing wrong man, like always. Ama become a damn good ozeki! :-P

[Sokkenaiyama 76]

Fueling the fire: Kotomitsuki sandbagged to Chiyotaikai bigtime.

[Peeter 15]

Fueling the fire: Kotomitsuki sandbagged to Chiyotaikai bigtime.

What about yesterday, WhAbYe, WAY, ten times more ... :-P Sorry for offtopic! :-(

[Kintamayama 44,231]

Fueling the fire: Kotomitsuki sandbagged to Chiyotaikai bigtime.

No he didn't. He wouldn't give up on a yusho opportunity, and Chiyotaikai still has two more days to get his win, so he wouldn't be the one causing Chiyotaikai's kadoban.

Why am I seriously answering these?? Because there is an off chance that someone may actually be "buying" your goods at face value, sir, and we wouldn't want that..

[paolo 0]

Fueling the fire: Kotomitsuki sandbagged to Chiyotaikai bigtime.

In general terms I think that Kotomitsuki might have thought "Chiyotaikai needs a favour not to become kadoban, let us make him this favour that he might return to me if and when I need so".

But it is hard to believe that he behaved like this in a moment when he could still win the basho beating

both Ama and Hakuho !

[Sokkenaiyama 76]

Some people are actually taking what I say at face value. It doesn't matter much to anyone, but it did help some of them in sumo gaming, and it gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling inside.

[Peeter 15]

Kintamayama: No he didn't. He wouldn't give up on a yusho opportunity, and Chiyotaikai still has two more days to get his win, so he wouldn't be the one causing Chiyotaikai's kadoban.

1+1+1=2 Kotooshu has not 2 days, I think you understand, but never forgive me!

[Jakusotsu 5,741]

...Chiyotaikai still has two more days to get his win...

No he doesn't, because he's still scheduled to lose against Hakuho and Osh to keep everyone happy.

Ooops - did I just say that?? :-P

[Peeter 15]

After me, my good writer! :-P

Edited November 21, 2008 by Peeter

[Jonosuke 28]

Both Kotomitsuki and Miyabiyama said rather pointedly during this basho they were taking this basho very personally to do well, not just only for themselves but also for their wife. Miyabiyama said he could not even announce his planned wedding to the world because he felt he had sub-par performance for a while. He even said there was nothing more than he ever wanted in his life this basho than winning the yushothough he knew it was unlikely even when he was leading the pack earlier.

Kotomitsuki was rather upset learning some were suggesting his "unfocused" sumo was due to him getting married and was a fault of his wife.

For those only looking at some higher level conspiracies, these competitions are fought by men with feelings not just for their own glory. They are pro but to take 15 days of straight live and die situation every single day will take a toll. Some days some will feel not 100% physically or mentally or not as concentrated for whatever reason. But when they go out and try for their wife, kids or parents, I consider it will take far greater precedence over anything else.

If you are competing even just for play and your kid/wife or equivalent/parent came all the way to watch you play, would you trade the game to someone else because you want to do him a favor? I think it's no different for them as you and me. I feel silly even responding to such argument.