Ama vs. Hakuho

[Bealzbob 0]

So let me get this straight.

Hakuho was in what he and others felt was a losing position with the double inside grip. And rather than stay there and conveniently lose the match he actually changes to another grip in an attempt to recover the situation. And this attempt to go from a losing position to a different one is being accused of yaocho? Riiight.... and if he'd stayed in the losing grip it wouldn't have been yaocho? Or would it ? and if it would, the question then needs to be asked - what exactly does Hakuho, or indeed Ama, have to do to not be accused of yaocho in a bout that Ama actually wins. Or are people actually denying that Ama could under any circumstances beat Hakuho on any given day? The fact is Hakuho tried to rescue a situation that IF he'd wanted to lose the bout, he wouldn't have had to rescue.

I think people are suspicious about the result and they're then filling in the gaps with the bits that fit, while ignoring the bits that don't and I think it does Ama and Hakuho a dis-service.

[Sokkenaiyama 76]

You usually look for yaocho in bouts that make it likely to take place, like a Mongol Dai-Yokozuna fighting a Mongol Sekiwake and Ozeki candidate, with a real chance of getting the promotion. And seeing the Dai-Yokozuna take some dubious decisions that go completely against not only what he usually does, but against sumo basics, only strengthens the suspicion. I still fail to see your point with religion.

As for you denying the existence of yaocho... you didn't do it explicitely, but you accuse me of looking for it where I shouldn't, and this particular bout is a prime candidate for such scrutiny. I can only guess you don't really believe it exists.

As for seeing it black and white... I'm afraid I'm not the one doing so. I can still enjoy sumo even knowing not all of it is legit. But there are people out there who deny yaocho's very existence for fear that it might ruin their pleasure. Now if THAT isn't black and white, I don't know what is.

Of course, you can choose to end the argument at any point if you don't have the time/energy/whatever to go on.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Sokkenaiyama

[Sokkenaiyama 76]

Bzb, did you even see the bout?

[Gusoyama 95]

I had a look at plenty of matches so far, and I think I can tell a fixed bout from a real one, most of the time. Are you trying to convince me there's no yaocho? Because you're not doing much of a job. And the religious comparison is beside the point.

Since we have no proof of which matches are yaocho and which are not, how can you make this claim? I haven't seen the bout, so I can't tell you my opinion on it, but this is simply ridiculous. Like Kintamayama said, some bouts reek of yaocho, but there's no way we can absolutely know that it was so for today's match, or any other match, no matter what it may look like.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Gusoyama

[HenryK 38]

To add my five cents, I find it hard to decipher an obvious yaocho here. I don't see that "in a couple of situations Hakuho goes from the inside to the outside pretty much on his own". I see Hakuho trying three times to get his prefered left-hand inside mawashi grip. The first time he is pushed back by Ama. The second time Ama blocks Hakuho's left with his right. The third time Ama moves his hips backwards, then steps in and beats Hakuho to a double-handed inside chest-to-chest mawashi grip that he converts into a fine shitatenage. It all looks like brilliant sumo. To borrow a term from boxing, Ama fought like a fast, aggressive, but cautious "counterpuncher" (or rather "countergripper") to beat a rushed and somewhat predictable attack.

This said we'll of course never know for sure whether this was staged, but if so it was done very expertly.

[Dante 0]

I still fail to see your point with religion.

That's probably because I am not talking about religion as such but about people who are so far gone they see 'proof' in everything as you seem to do with yaocho.

If you have difficulty with metaphores I will try to refrain from using them in the future!

[Sokkenaiyama 76]

Please, by all means.

[Dante 0]

(In a state of confusion...)

[Kintamayama 44,354]

Wasn't meaning to be arrogant, I was merely stating the conclusion after all the people here started disagreeing. Mr. D, can you answer to me why Hakuho changed his grip the way he did with his left and didn't grad the mawashi instead?

Because he is having a lousy basho and till today, had no real opponent. Today, he finally did and is just not as self-confident as usual and had a hard time decidng what to do., and was simply outmaneuvered by Ama, just like Asa lately is always a split second slower than his opponent. When he can overcome that, he's OK, but if his opponent is quick enough and sharp enough he loses, hence he is where he is at the moment. I actually don't believe the elbow is his problem.

Same goes for Hakuhou-he just isn't Hakuhou this basho. I really don't think that now, of all times when all eyes are out to detect yaocho, they would do something so dumb.

[Jonosuke 28]

I came to a conclusion whenever an average fan or no fan starts calling there was a yaocho, it never was.

Especially in the Musubi when all eyes are on them, they would not make it so apparent that it's easily identified.

[Jonosuke 28]

I had a look at plenty of matches so far, and I think I can tell a fixed bout from a real one, most of the time.

Oh while I am at it, can you name the one you considered to be the absolute definitive one so I can go back and review Shukan Gedai?

[Sokkenaiyama 76]

So, in your not so humble opinion, if it's suspicious, it's probably not fake, regardless of whether there were favorable circumstances or not, huh? OK, I'll yield to your superior arguments and leave it alone.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Sokkenaiyama

[_the_mind_ 0]

So, in your not so humble opinion, if it's suspicious, it's probably not fake, regardless of whether there were favorable circumstances or not, huh? OK, I'll yield to your superior arguments and leave it alone.

i like how earlier on this page you said you arent being arrogent then everything after that is this holier then thou post

do tell WHY hakuho would throw this match? so Ama can get the yusho? or because Ama wasnt going to get enough wins against the others who are fighting poorly that he needed to buy a yokozuna win? good call. yes im sure hakuho doesnt really want another yusho, since thats what throwing this match cost him, the sole lead.

your stance is weak at best, oh might one with the unflinching eye for yaocho

they need to get you in the court room as an expert witness

Edited November 20, 2008 by _the_mind_

[Sokkenaiyama 76]

I meant it. His arguments are truly superior. I am an average sumo (non)fan, all the stuff I said earlier is crap, so I yield. What's so unclear about that?

[Doitsuyama 1,173]

I just saw the bout again and Ama was just faster to get a much better grip and for Hakuho it was downhill from then. The only weird thing was the absence of zabuton flying...

[Gernobono 455]

for me the thread is getting more and more offtopic.....

for me it is clear that ama would ever win that bout...being the stronger or not.....

in this thread all the anti-yaocho-members are argueing that ama won because he was the stronger rikishi....interesting fact is that kintamayama put hakuho on 4 in his benchsumo-team......and i guess most of the sumo-gurus playing benchsumo did so.....

and all of a sudden it was "obvious" ama would win.......strange... B-)

[Doitsuyama 1,173]

and all of a sudden it was "obvious" ama would win.......strange... B-)

No... it's obvious that Ama was better in this bout. We can say that only when seeing the bout not when making game picks.

[Sasanishiki 57]

Firstly, I'm thinking along the lines of Gernobono's original post B-)

I think I have made it clear in the past that I believe in yaocho although I am perhaps not as fervent as Shukan Gendai, Mr Itai or even former Wakanoho. However, there are generally two methods for yaocho to take place: money (buying a win) and quid pro quo (losing a later one). If we are to consider whether or not yaocho is a possibility here, I think we need to look at several things rather than looking at a bout in isolation.

I don't think that Ama could buy the bout off Hakuho because of what it means in terms of the basho. It would not be worth Hakuho's while to go from sole lead to a tied lead with the best on the banzuke still to come (not that they are havig great basho). He would earn more (in money and prestige) by beating Ama and knocking out the lead chaser for the yusho.

So, we have to look at Ama dropping a later bout in order for him to have the win yesterday against Hakuho. This is a more plausible way for yaocho to transpire. It gives Ama the legitimacy of having beaten the yokozuna and gives him his tenth win, thus laying down conditions that greatly help his Ozeki promotion. Hakuho is able to drop a match to Ama and still have a shot at winning the yusho. It ocurs with enough time in the basho remaining that Ama can lose one of the regular matches to an opponent and/or he can always throw the kettei-sen with Hakuho. Ama has matches against Miyabiyama, Kotomitsuki and Baruto to come. Ama would be expected to beat Miyabiyama, especially if he is to become Ozeki, but a reasonable case could be made for losing to either of the others due to rank/size. Hakuho will face Kotooshu, Chiyotaikai and Kotomitsuki which he would be expected to win but could even afford to lose one and still make the playoff with the knowledge that Ama would throw this match (there is the possibility of a third rikishi such as Kotomitsuki being in there which might complicate matters).

I think if Ama wins the yusho then we should throw the yaocho speculation out the window because Hakuho would not have outright sold the match to Ama. We should realy only start having thoughts of yaocho if Ama is suddenly blown away in an uncharacteristic manner in one of his remaining bouts, or if he meekly surrenders to Hakuho in the kettei-sen. Now, if Ama does happen to lose in the next three days, that doesn't necessarily mean yaocho because he has a couple of tough competitors ahead. He is 6-5 against Miyabiyama but has won all four contests this year. He is 3-2 against Baruto and they have split their two matches this year. He is 9-9 against Kotomitsuki and they have alternated their wins this year (and it is Kotomitsuki's "turn" to win this basho). He could quite conceivably lose one (or two) of those matches. I guess it comes down to how those matches look, and I'll leave that to the 'experts' (Neener, neener...)

If Hakuho loses other bouts against the ozeki then I think it is a decent indication that he is not at his best this basho, which has been talked about since before the basho began. This will give further credence to those who say Ama's win was not yaocho.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Sasanishiki

[Gusoyama 95]

I've now seen the bout, and I can not see any foul play there. Ama was faster, and kept Hakuho off his belt. It was obvious that Hakuho was scrambling. And Hakuho changed from the front of the belt to the back because Ama was doing two things, twisting him and lifting up under his arm.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Gusoyama

[Asashosakari 18,786]

You usually look for yaocho in bouts that make it likely to take place ...

And that's right where it all starts going downhill:

"Odd-looking bout and I can't think of something particular that's at stake" = must have been a regular bout, or at least it's not worth thinking about any further

"Odd-looking bout with something at stake" = any and all suspicions of yaocho are justified, because that's probably what it was

That casual assumption that you or anybody else knows exactly why or why not some pair of rikishi would be motivated to engage in yaocho in a particular bout is...well, at the very least it's interesting to observe. Heck, Kasuganishiki allegedly asked Wakanoho to throw a Day 2 bout because he sold him some accessories at a lower price - even if that was totally bogus, it's still a perfect reminder of just how silly a reason human behaviour can be based on. But no, of course yaocho can always be neatly categorized according to only those circumstances that are obvious and visible to any random monkey. Gee, I wonder how likely that is.

[Kintamayama 44,354]

in this thread all the anti-yaocho-members are argueing that ama won because he was the stronger rikishi....interesting fact is that kintamayama put hakuho on 4 in his benchsumo-team......and i guess most of the sumo-gurus playing benchsumo did so.....

and all of a sudden it was "obvious" ama would win.......strange... B-)

"Sure, most of us thought he'd win, because we usually think the Yokozuna, whoever he may be, will win. " is what I wrote in my first answer in this thread. If I would have believed this bout would be yaocho, I would have gone with Ama, but since I didn't, I didn't. You play the games-you know it doesn't work that way. You know there are different strategies for different games, yet you choose to ignore them when it's convenient. Since you seem to be following my gaming career very closely, you could have given my SG guess (no Hakuhou or Ama) as an example, but you didn't..

You really think Hakuhou threw away the bout so he can get a return favor in a keteisen, when nobody can be sure he will beat both kadoban -danger Ozeki fighting for their KK in the shape he's in and reach that ketteisen in the first place??

Come on..

Edited November 20, 2008 by Kintamayama

[Jonosuke 28]

So, in your not so humble opinion, if it's suspicious, it's probably not fake, regardless of whether there were favorable circumstances or not, huh?

Actually I consider it's not about favorable or not favorable circumstances in the first place but by who. I have no doubt what the Kyokai prefers to call "intentionally unmotivated sumo" occurs as they have a rule against it as evidenced by an audio tape of a meeting held by the former Futagoyama Rijicho years ago.

Someone like Itai has done it for sure but even he himself admitted there were some guys who refused him and never ever have even considered doing it.

If we were talking about favorable circumstances then we still have Dejima and Miyabiyama as ozeki and Kotomitsuki got to ozeki long before he eventually did.

The Shukan Gendai had an ideal opportunity to trash out more dirt with Wakanoho but all he could come up with was three ozeki names and one Makuuchi with rather feeble excuse and practically no evidence to back it up.

Wakanoho faced Hakuho three times and lost them all. But he couldn't offer the Gendai even one small lead or rumor or gossip about Hakuho being involved.

Wakanoho faced Ama three times and he beat him twice. The only time he lost, he lost by utchari - and if anyone is looking for a suspicious play here was a perfect one with a small guy throwing out a big guy at the dohyo edge in a rather spectacular fashion. But he had nothing to say about it. Instead if you recall Wakanoho was so upset with the loss, he went to demolish some Kyokai properties after the bout.

These two guys faced Wakanoho and certainly if there was something there, we would heard from him by now.

There are guys here on the Forum actually doing amateur sumo and they can tell you more than I could that there are bouts you could lose in such an unlikely way it could be easily considered as if you are throwing the bout, they aren't. Sumo is about balance. When you lose balance unexpectedly, you will fall looking pretty silly.

Circumstances abound in Ozumo but there are Gachinko rikishi in Ozumo you simply cannot attribute circumstances to.

[Bilu 0]

Following this thread, I watched the bout in slo-mo and in full spead - 10 times or so.

In my opinion it was fare-and-square.

Hakuho switched from inside to outside, etc, partially due to Ama's defense and partially due to Ama's offense. When he goes for Ama's mawashi, he's also aware of Ama's attack and he switches between 'offense' (grabbing the mawashi) and 'defense' (stopping Ama from grabbing his).

Since it all happens so quickly, it makes sense that he changes his mind and tries various tactics.

Claims of Hakuho not capitalizing on an 'open' this-or-that might have been considered for a much slower bout, where he would have more time for elaborate offense.

This bout was just to quick for 'thinking'.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Bilu

[Blue_Wolf 24]

I think Hakuho threw this one. Ama doesn't have to pay any penny, so it not yaocho. B-) It's only a big favor towards his ozeki promotion from his very good friend. They may even not discussed about doing it.

And about this bout looking real or fake, what's the point. If you are about to throw a bout you just don't try your best. It's easy. Well, its only my view i want to share after reading discussion.

[Kintamayama 44,354]

I think Hakuho threw this one. Ama doesn't have to pay any penny, so it not yaocho. B-) It's only a big favor towards his ozeki promotion from his very good friend. They may even not discussed about doing it.

And about this bout looking real or fake, what's the point. If you are about to throw a bout you just don't try your best. It's easy. Well, its only my view i want to share after reading discussion.

So you think he will give up a yusho for his friend? Really?