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HenryK

Bushuyama on track for first-time Makuuchi promotion at age 32

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This must be a rather rare occurrence. Anyone aware of similar examples (I went back to 1990, found nothing)?

Edited by HenryK

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Hoshiiwato was approaching his 34th birthday when he made his makuuchi debut in July 1989. I think he holds the post WWII record. The 115 tournaments it took him from his hatsu dohyo is also a record.

Lets not forget Kotokasuga just a couple of bashos back -- he was over 30.

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Courtesy of the Natsu 2008 banzuke topics, oldest makuuchi debuts after WWII (age calculated based on banzuke publication date):

#

Rikishi

Age

Debut

Maku

HiRk

1

Ononishiki 34y 11m 1938.05 1957.03 M16

2

Hoshiiwato 33y 10m 1970.05 1989.07 M14

3

Otayama 33y 4m 1939.05 1957.09 M20

4

Hirakagawa 31y 9m 1941.01 1956.01 M13

5

Makimoto 31y 0m 1960.03 1972.09 M12

6

Hachiya 30y 11m 10d 1968.09 1981.11 M6

6

Sentoryu 30y 11m 10d 1988.07 2000.07 M12

8

Onoura 30y 10m 1947.11 1956.09 M16

9

Asofuji 30y 9m 1994.01 2006.11 (M13)

10

Kotokasuga 30y 7m 30d 1993.03 2008.05 (M16)

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Hey I've been to Ononishiki's Chanko restaurant in Osaka.

It's run by his wife and his son, who was one time with Mihgoaseki Beya.

Since they opened it 1958, they've been operating it for 50 years now.

Edit: Incidentally the reason it took him so long to reach anywhere was because he was enlisted and could not join back to Ozumo until after the World War II and then resumed from Sandanme.

Edited by Jonosuke

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Hey I've been to Ononishiki's Chanko restaurant in Osaka.

It's run by his wife and his son, who was one time with Mihgoaseki Beya.

For the obsessive ones among us: Fuyomine

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Courtesy of the Natsu 2008 banzuke topics, oldest makuuchi debuts after WWII (age calculated based on banzuke publication date):

#

Rikishi

Age

Debut

Maku

HiRk

1

Ononishiki 34y 11m 1938.05 1957.03 M16

2

Hoshiiwato 33y 10m 1970.05 1989.07 M14

3

Otayama 33y 4m 1939.05 1957.09 M20

4

Hirakagawa 31y 9m 1941.01 1956.01 M13

5

Makimoto 31y 0m 1960.03 1972.09 M12

6

Hachiya 30y 11m 10d 1968.09 1981.11 M6

6

Sentoryu 30y 11m 10d 1988.07 2000.07 M12

8

Onoura 30y 10m 1947.11 1956.09 M16

9

Asofuji 30y 9m 1994.01 2006.11 (M13)

10

Kotokasuga 30y 7m 30d 1993.03 2008.05 (M16)

Thanks. Nice.

Edited by HenryK

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For the obsessive ones among us: Fuyomine

Too bad we didn't have SumoDB back then or he would have cried all over it seeing his name and records there.

Perhaps the next time I go there, I will show it to him.

SumoDB is really amazing as I've been told about it quite often from Japanese fans as there is simply no such an online reference anywhere.

It's astounding that we have such an incredible resource and I certainly couldn't imagined it even five years ago.

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And KK it is! Way to go Bush!

(as an American, I can't believe I just typed that...)

Just imagine how ridiculous George W. would look like in a Mawashi.... (Yucky...)

Ganzohnesushi

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And KK it is! Way to go Bush!

(as an American, I can't believe I just typed that...)

Just imagine how ridiculous George W. would look like in a Mawashi.... (Yucky...)

Ganzohnesushi

2dreujk.jpg

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I like talented guys who barge through the lower divisions and quickly establish themselves in Makunouchi, but I also admire the less gifted rikishi who plod along, losing almost as many as they're winning, and who gradually make their way to Juryo and maybe to Makunouchi like Bushuyama. Even if their sumo lacks the speed and/or power of the higher ranked rikishi, they often gradually become superior technicians because that is the only way to compensate for the absence of natural athletic ability.

Conversely, I've never been a fan of rikishi who have a lot of physical ability (size, speed or strength) but who don't seem to learn to do better sumo as they get older. Having a long career in sumo is very difficult, and often requires making style adjustments along the way. For those who go back that far, I remember Terao gradually improving at yotsu-zumo to augment his tsuppari and hatakikomi attacks. Chiyotaikai will need to do pretty much the same thing if he's to last much longer as an active rikishi.

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Conversely, I've never been a fan of rikishi who have a lot of physical ability (size, speed or strength) but who don't seem to learn to do better sumo as they get older. Having a long career in sumo is very difficult, and often requires making style adjustments along the way. For those who go back that far, I remember Terao gradually improving at yotsu-zumo to augment his tsuppari and hatakikomi attacks. Chiyotaikai will need to do pretty much the same thing if he's to last much longer as an active rikishi.

A bit of an odd comparison. Terao may have had another 31 makuuchi basho after he reached Chiyotaikai's current age, but he also spent just 6 of them ranked M5 or higher. (Total record 26-63-1, incidentally.) Take away the expectation that he'll have to retire after dropping from the ozeki rank, and I'm sure Taikai could compete as a meatgrinder rikishi (a higher level than Terao did) for another few years even without major adjustments to his style.

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Kotokasuga and now Bushuyama, making it to Makuuchi after being denied for years. Six "over-the-hill" rikishis in the top 8 of Juryo banzuke, between 30 and 36 year old. Is average level declining in Juryo and lower Makuuchi ?

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Kotokasuga and now Bushuyama, making it to Makuuchi after being denied for years. Six "over-the-hill" rikishis in the top 8 of Juryo banzuke, between 30 and 36 year old. Is average level declining in Juryo and lower Makuuchi ?

I think it's simply because the 1976 and 1977 cohorts produced a lot more rikishi recruits than the surrounding years. The really talented ones from those years are still hanging around (Chiyotaikai, Kotomitsuki, Takamisakari, etc.), and the marginal guys / late bloomers are breaking through now. Asofuji, Ryuho, Daimanazuru, Kotokasuga, Bushuyama...all the recent "old" makuuchi debutants are from those two years. I don't think it necessarily means the level of competition is going down, just that there are more "good enough" rikishi to be found at these specific ages now than normally.

If you want to worry about declining quality, we have something to look forward to when all those guys are gone in 3-5 years...

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Kotokasuga and now Bushuyama, making it to Makuuchi after being denied for years. Six "over-the-hill" rikishis in the top 8 of Juryo banzuke, between 30 and 36 year old. Is average level declining in Juryo and lower Makuuchi ?

If many keep dropping away like Wakanoho, Roho, Hakurozan, injured ones like Sakaizawa and Ichihara, thinner ones like Hakuba, Hoshihikari and Satoyama keep having problems with consistency, then of course spots are opening up for the over the top ones to keep quite high ranked a little longer than otherwise would have been the case.

About Bushuyama : I already know him quite long, though I've only began to follow the lower divisions since 2007. So he must already have been quite close to top Juryo some years ago. And indeed, at SD I see he got there in 2004. It's quite an interesting career he's having. Started in Makushita, but dropped away quite soon. Changed shikona, which immediately inspired him to climb to a new career high. Then had a good period from halfway 2003 to halfway 2004. After that, he went up and down. And one year ago, he began his KK spree, even seems to do better in Juryo (having to fight every day) than in Makushita. Amazing ! (Yucky...)

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Kotokasuga and now Bushuyama, making it to Makuuchi after being denied for years. Six "over-the-hill" rikishis in the top 8 of Juryo banzuke, between 30 and 36 year old. Is average level declining in Juryo and lower Makuuchi ?

I think it's simply because the 1976 and 1977 cohorts produced a lot more rikishi recruits than the surrounding years. The really talented ones from those years are still hanging around (Chiyotaikai, Kotomitsuki, Takamisakari, etc.)

If you want to worry about declining quality, we have something to look forward to when all those guys are gone in 3-5 years...

What are you talking about? Chiyotaikai's mandatory retirement is still more than 30 years away!

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Everytime I write Bushuyama off he comes back stronger,so I'm going to stop doing it.

Bushuyama for Yokozuna......

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Everytime I write Bushuyama off he comes back stronger,so I'm going to stop doing it.

Bushuyama for Yokozuna......

So you don't want Bushuyama to get stronger? What is your beef with him?

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Kotokasuga and now Bushuyama, making it to Makuuchi after being denied for years. Six "over-the-hill" rikishis in the top 8 of Juryo banzuke, between 30 and 36 year old. Is average level declining in Juryo and lower Makuuchi ?

I think it's simply because the 1976 and 1977 cohorts produced a lot more rikishi recruits than the surrounding years. The really talented ones from those years are still hanging around (Chiyotaikai, Kotomitsuki, Takamisakari, etc.)

If you want to worry about declining quality, we have something to look forward to when all those guys are gone in 3-5 years...

What are you talking about? Chiyotaikai's mandatory retirement is still more than 30 years away!

Maybe it will need a "Chiyotaikai road to 100 years update" thread B-)

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The road to 100 kadoban? Kudos to him getting kachikoshi today! All jokes aside Taikai is looking more genki this basho than he has in a while. This and the previous Aki brought out good things from him so I hope he stays until the next fall basho.

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The road to 100 kadoban? Kudos to him getting kachikoshi today! All jokes aside Taikai is looking more genki this basho than he has in a while. This and the previous Aki brought out good things from him so I hope he stays until the next fall basho.

Going a bit off-topic now: Chiyotaikai's kachi koshi anebles him to stay active as an Ozeki until Hatsu Basho 2009, which means he will have completed ten years at that rank. I doubt he can make it to twelve, but from Kaio I learned to expect the unexpected.

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I congratulated him on 9 years as ozeki in March and said I hoped to do so for 10 years. Looks like I will be able to do so unless there is an untimely intai.

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Everytime I write Bushuyama off he comes back stronger,so I'm going to stop doing it.

Bushuyama for Yokozuna......

So you don't want Bushuyama to get stronger? What is your beef with him?

Nothing.....I just hate being wrong.

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And KK it is! Way to go Bush!

(as an American, I can't believe I just typed that...)

Just imagine how ridiculous George W. would look like in a Mawashi.... :-P

Ganzohnesushi

2dreujk.jpg

(Struck by lightning...) (I am not worthy...) (Dancing of joy...)

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