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Kintamayama

The Brothers- the aftermath

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"It's not good to lie under oath, and these guys are lying through their teeth", accused Rohou at the trial, pointing a finger at Isenoumi and Tomozuna Oyakatas. Tomozuna had said the test cups were not handed to them (as opposed to them picking their own cups). "That's a lie!! They were handed to us, yes indeed!", contended Rohou. "My shisho did the right thing and answered truthfully. I was standing close by and heard Isenoumi promise we won't be dismissed", added Rohou. "It is regretful", said Tomozuna of Ootake's testimony, which put a serious dent in their case. "If he had something to say, he should have come to us and not said it in the courtroom!", he added. "I had no intention of confronting the Kyokai with my testimony", retorted Ootake.

Rohou in the courtroom:

sp-090901-4-ns-big.jpg

Edited by Kintamayama

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"It is regretful", said Tomozuna of Ootake's testimony, which put a serious dent in their case. "If he had something to say, he should have come to us and not said it in the courtroom!", he added.

I take it that the nuance of Tomozuna's statement is that Ootake should have brought this matter up earlier within the kyokai, instead of dumping it on them in his testimony, rather than that Ootake should not have said anything in his testimony.

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"It is regretful", said Tomozuna of Ootake's testimony, which put a serious dent in their case. "If he had something to say, he should have come to us and not said it in the courtroom!", he added.

I take it that the nuance of Tomozuna's statement is that Ootake should have brought this matter up earlier within the kyokai, instead of dumping it on them in his testimony, rather than that Ootake should not have said anything in his testimony.

Yes, indeed, you take it right.

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"It is regretful", said Tomozuna of Ootake's testimony, which put a serious dent in their case. "If he had something to say, he should have come to us and not said it in the courtroom!", he added.

I take it that the nuance of Tomozuna's statement is that Ootake should have brought this matter up earlier within the kyokai, instead of dumping it on them in his testimony, rather than that Ootake should not have said anything in his testimony.

I guess he'll be in their bad graces for telling the truth! I guess they wanted him to meet & fix their testimony before the trial. I really respect Otake for doing the right thing, telling the truth & not folding to them!

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Most probably he is in their bad graces anyway for allowing his deshi to partake in drugs...It would be very interesing to be a fly on the wall in the Kyokai at the moment. I liken the Kyokai to the LDP - one group ostensibly, but with different factions and rivalries looking to gain ascendency and control, all the while having to manage the rivalries so that the entire body does not fall apart and lose public confidence.

Does anyone know of any previous rivalries or problems between Ootake and Tomozuna/Isenoumi?

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Kitanoumi Oyakata will be testifying at the Brothers' trial on October 26th . "If I get subpoenaed, I will go.I do not know who will benefit from my testimony. I will tell the truth!", he declared. He was the rijicho at the time of the suspension, as well as being Hakurozan's Oyakata. Additionally, ex-Wakakirin who was kicked out of Sumo later for the same reason, has issued a written statement. He also tested positive at the same time as the brothers, but according to their lawyer "was let off because he was Japanese".

Edited by Kintamayama

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Kitanoumi Oyakata will be testifying at the Brothers' trial on October 26th . "If I get subpoenaed, I will go.I do not know who will benefit from my testimony. I will tell the truth!", he declared. He was the rijicho at the time of the suspension, as well as being Hakurozan's Oyakata. Additionally, ex-Wakakirin who was kicked out of Sumo later for the same reason, has issued a written statement. He also tested positive at the same time as the brothers, but according to their lawyer "was let off because he was Japanese".

Wakakirin's statement is a bombshell. Doesn't mean the brothers are innocent but means they were willing to look the other way for Japanese rikishi as long as they didn't actually get arrested. Hard to believe this is taking so long though! By the time it's over the brothers won't have a chance of doing much even if they are reinstated.

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Wakakirin's statement is a bombshell. Doesn't mean the brothers are innocent but means they were willing to look the other way for Japanese rikishi as long as they didn't actually get arrested. Hard to believe this is taking so long though! By the time it's over the brothers won't have a chance of doing much even if they are reinstated.

I don't know about that. Obviously nobody knows whether they've really kept in shape during their layoff as was insinuated a while ago, but if they have they could well be back for the long haul. You don't usually get the "opportunity" to take a year off and heal all your injuries and still come back as a sekitori right away...

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Kitanoumi Oyakata will be testifying at the Brothers' trial on October 26th . "

Since I'm sure we'll all be there, I would like to notify everyone that the date has been moved to November 12th, due to "court reasons", according to the Brothers' lawyer. "This won't change the fact that he will be there!", he added.

So will we.

Edited by Kintamayama

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Kitanoumi Oyakata will be testifying at the Brothers' trial on October 26th . "

Since I'm sure we'll all be there, I would like to notify everyone that the date has been moved to November 12th, due to "court reasons", according to the Brothers' lawyer. "This won't change the fact that he will be there!", he added.

So will we.

Sorry to inconvenience you again, but the date has been moved yet again. Now, it's December 21st. "As November 12th is a few days before the basho starts, we'll move him to December", said Ben Goshi the brothers' lawyer.

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And December 21st rolled around today, finding Kitanoumi ex-riji on the witness stand. " No, there was no talk within the Kyokai initially about expelling them. It was decided at the rijikai, mainly because we were told the brothers admitted to lighting up during the LA jungyo and begged to keep it a secret (the brothers are vehemently denying this). I voted for it mainly because Hakurozan was my deshi and I didn't want to be seen as protecting him", he said. Rohou was there, mage, kimono and all. "I'd like to thank Kitanoumi Oyakata and am deeply grateful for his testimony. It shouldn't be on behalf of the prosecution or the defense-it just should be the truth", he said. He is maintaining his 140 kilos and is keeping in shape by training. Hakurozan was not present, as he is in Russia.

Edit: Final verdict-February 15th.

Ro-ho-ho!

T-f-P20091221-sp-rohoh-ns-big.jpg

Edited by Kintamayama

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Rohou with Charles Laughton

Kinta you are dating yourself, how many people besides maybe Orion and I would even know what you were talking about. The resemblance is amazing however.

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Kinta you are dating yourself

Oh, if that were possible.. think of the money I would save.

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Rohou with Charles Laughton

[...]how many people besides maybe Orion and I would even know what you were talking about.

Don't think that being elderly gives you exclusive access to elderly knowledge. Common mistake. I know someone who really knows a lot about the Roman Empire, and he is still alive! Imagine!

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Kinta you are dating yourself

Oh, if that were possible.. think of the money I would save.

(Holiday feeling...)

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Rohou with Charles Laughton

Kinta you are dating yourself, how many people besides maybe Orion and I would even know what you were talking about. The resemblance is amazing however.

You don't have to be that old to know who Charles Laughton was...

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Rohou with Charles Laughton

Kinta you are dating yourself, how many people besides maybe Orion and I would even know what you were talking about. The resemblance is amazing however.

You don't have to be that old to know who Charles Laughton was...

Especially if you watch TCM periodically.

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To all concerned, I stand er.. sit corrected. I realize, of course, there are lots of old movie fans beside myself, just wasn't so sure there were that many who were also sumo fans. Gomenasai!

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And December 21st rolled around today, finding Kitanoumi ex-riji on the witness stand. " No, there was no talk within the Kyokai initially about expelling them. It was decided at the rijikai, mainly because we were told the brothers admitted to lighting up during the LA jungyo and begged to keep it a secret (the brothers are vehemently denying this). I voted for it mainly because Hakurozan was my deshi and I didn't want to be seen as protecting him", he said. Rohou was there, mage, kimono and all. "I'd like to thank Kitanoumi Oyakata and am deeply grateful for his testimony. It shouldn't be on behalf of the prosecution or the defense-it just should be the truth", he said. He is maintaining his 140 kilos and is keeping in shape by training. Hakurozan was not present, as he is in Russia.

Edit: Final verdict-February 15th.

Ro-ho-ho!

T-f-P20091221-sp-rohoh-ns-big.jpg

Feb 15th!!! That's, like, next year! (Oh wait.. 6 weeks....)

So what then? If favourable to Rohoho & Co., do they get accepted back into the mix? Start from the bottom again? (If so, would NOT want to be a low-level rikishi... and have to face the still-not-good-lookingest-with-huge-mean-streak "new/old" guys on the block.

If not favourable, would they then appeal it? I admire the fact that they've stuck it out thus far... must have cost a few shekels to continue to live and maintain a lifestyle in Japan under these conditions (or did they go back to Russia???).

I, for one, would let them back in, if a good decision comes down in their favour. I think the Kyokai screwed this one up, and I also understand the "Go Down With The Ship" mentality that some cultures have. Compared to the dog-baiting, drug-dealing, cock-fighting, gun-waving stuff that goes around in NBA, NFL and MLB circles (you thought I was talking about the U.S. Congress?) this is such an organizational screw-up, it deserves to be reconsidered.

And I hope they hurry up with that decision... Roho's hairline is receding faster than the polar icecaps, and Haku would have so little hair left to work with they might have to use the stuff off his upper back and shoulders....

Edited by Treblemaker

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So what then? If favourable to Rohoho & Co., do they get accepted back into the mix? Start from the bottom again?

Haridashi/tsukedashi/whatever at their old ranks, most likely. I don't think anything else is justifiable if they want back in. Maybe the Kyokai will just try to buy them off instead it it loses the suit, I dunno.

I think the Kyokai screwed this one up ...

Can you elaborate? Do you think the test application and/or the test results were wrong, or just that they should have put the penalties in writing before going ahead with the tests? If merely the latter and the judge reaches the same conclusion, I'm guessing the brothers are toast considering Japan's drug laws.

And yeah, what Otokonoyama said.

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I think the Kyokai screwed this one up ...

Can you elaborate? Do you think the test application and/or the test results were wrong, or just that they should have put the penalties in writing before going ahead with the tests? If merely the latter and the judge reaches the same conclusion, I'm guessing the brothers are toast considering Japan's drug laws.

And yeah, what Otokonoyama said.

From all that I've read (which, of course, is all I can go by) the manner in which thus test was administered didn't seem to follow the same protocol that one would find, say, at the Olympics. The correct thing to do would have been to warn everyone extensively, then carpet-bomb the testing with everyone involved. All participating men at all levels of the banzuke. Top to bottom.

Unlike Wakanono, and that other genius, the brothers weren't caught red-handed. If so, there would be no question of their issue. Pee samples, unless correctly supervised by impartial methods, can be subject to question.

This is what I understand from the material that I've read. (If I've gone wrong somewhere, by all means, tell me.)

My point, then, is that if the Kyokai were going to do legitimate testing, then they bring in an outside agency who does an unbiased run of everybody. And the results and the consequences should have been clear to all - BEFOREHAND.

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From all that I've read (which, of course, is all I can go by) the manner in which thus test was administered didn't seem to follow the same protocol that one would find, say, at the Olympics. The correct thing to do would have been to warn everyone extensively, then carpet-bomb the testing with everyone involved. All participating men at all levels of the banzuke. Top to bottom.

That's not feasible. Even at the Beijing Olympics (with an established multi-million dollar international setup) they only conducted some 4,500 tests in a span of 17 days.

Anyway, no disagreement from me, the way the Kyokai went about it was severely sub-standard. (They did try to patch it up by having those re-tests at an accredited lab, but of course GIGO applies.) But that's pretty academic at this point - again, with Japan's drug laws not being overly sympathetic of even users, I have to wonder if the court's opinion will even get anywhere near insisting on internationally-sanctioned procedures, so it might come down to how regular Japanese employers and employees are treated by the law when such issues arise. (Anyone know?) I don't think the judge will require anything stricter by the Kyokai even if they're a "sport" and a higher-profile defendant than your average company; not with how sympathetically they usually appear to be treated in courts of law.

That's why I wonder if it might only come down to the issue of whether the Kyokai should have put the penalties in writing beforehand.

I guess there are two main explanations for why things went down as they did - 1) the "they were trying to get rid of the Russians" notion, supported by stuff like Roho's claim that the pee cups were already prepared and the rikishi weren't allowed to choose one, but that leaves the dual questions of "why?" (mere supposed guilt by association with Wakanoho seems a little weak) and "why leave so many loopholes?" Given that the assumption of incompetence can fill pretty much any logic hole, I'm certainly not ruling it out. Is the "it was done to damage Kitanoumi" theory still credible? That would answer the "why?", but I dunno...

I'm still leaning to 2) the whole initial testing run was simply a hasty cover-your-ass move by the Kyokai over the Wakanoho situation, and they genuinely didn't expect anyone to get caught (and/or for shishos with dirty knowledge to engineer excuses for their deshi...those rumours about "bedridden with the flu" Chiyohakuho and his absence from the testing were never really resolved AFAIK), hence both the iffy testing procedures and their bumbling in the aftermath when faced with the question of how to deal with the results. Also keep in mind that the (I think it was an) oyakata who allegedly saw HakuRoho smoke pot in LA apparently only came forward with that revelation after they'd already failed the tests. All in all, it would be a classic case of the leadership being divorced from the situation "on the ground".

At any rate, given that the court probably won't engage in conspiracy theories, they might end up somewhere along the lines of #2, with the question being reduced to whether the Kyokai's good-faith efforts in the testing and in their subsequent handling were good enough to pass muster or not. I don't like the brothers' chances if that's the case.

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