Kitanoumi resigns, the brothers are out

[Jonosuke 28]

Japan's Police Agency's Organized Crime Unit 5 received more report from the Kyokai relating to their investigation of Roho and Hakurozan, including a detailed analysis of their urine sample written in English and their alleged statement, " We received marijuana from an acquaintance during the LA Jungyo in June and smoked it. But please do not tell our shisho".

The police investigators already talked to the two previously but at the time they maintained they have never smoked marijuana. They are planning to reinvestigate the case an talk to the two again..

[Harry 67]

Japan's Police Agency's Organized Crime Unit 5 received more report from the Kyokai relating to their investigation of Roho and Hakurozan, including a detailed analysis of their urine sample written in English and their alleged statement, " We received marijuana from an acquaintance during the LA Jungyo in June and smoked it. But please do not tell our shisho".

The police investigators already talked to the two previously but at the time they maintained they have never smoked marijuana. They are planning to reinvestigate the case an talk to the two again..

Remember than Marion Jones went to prison for lying about drug use, not for the use of drugs themselves. What is the punishment for giving false statements to the police in Japan?

[Doitsuyama 1,173]

Remember than Marion Jones went to prison for lying about drug use, not for the use of drugs themselves. What is the punishment for giving false statements to the police in Japan?

Isn't anyone entitled to give false statements to the police, even in Japan? Happens all the time I guess... The problem is lying under oath in a court, and Hakuroho weren't even close to being put under oath I'd think.

[Jonosuke 28]

All this seems rather puzzling to me, and a sad example of double standards and, frankly, hypocrisy. Kitanoumi HAD NOT to resign when a young rikishi died from brutal physical assault. He HAS to resign when a couple of folks may have smoked a bit of weed.

I agree Kitanoumi should have resigned when they ousted former Tokitsukaze oyakata but he didn't.

It may be hard for you to believe but it has nothing to do with the seriousness of crime. In his view as the top man, he acted properly by kicking the oyakata out and with other directors they set up the Prevention Committee. The criminality of the incident was not up to him to decide but the court as he was not the one to commit it.

He basically maintained even though he was the top man at the Kyokai, it was a problem of a shisho and his recruit. Each shisho should take all responsibility of whatever his recruits did.

So when it became obvious his recruit Hakurozan was going to be expelled from the Kyokai, he could not escape his own fate, that he had to take the responsibility. Most folks felt he should have insisted to resign as the director as well.

In any organization whether be it a sport or business, the man or woman at the top must take final responsibility to whatever happens to their organization, that could be something like embezzlement, breach of trust, violence in work place, insider trading etc. If you ever read business stories, you will note the top people do not necessarily resign their position based on the criminal nature of incidents but also for ethical and moral behaviors and conduct of their firms and employees. The Sumo Kyokai is no exception in this regard.

Edited September 11, 2008 by Jonosuke

[Harry 67]

Remember than Marion Jones went to prison for lying about drug use, not for the use of drugs themselves. What is the punishment for giving false statements to the police in Japan?

Isn't anyone entitled to give false statements to the police, even in Japan? Happens all the time I guess... The problem is lying under oath in a court, and Hakuroho weren't even close to being put under oath I'd think.

I am not a lawyer but as far as I know... It's against the law in Canada and at least some US states if not all to lie to the police, at least about the report of a crime (false report). When asked if you have committed a crime yourself, you have the right to remain silent but not to give a false name and so on. Obstruction of justice, accessory after the fact, etc. come into play if you are trying to cover for someone, like if Roho and Hakurozan were covering for Wakanoho or if his claims that it was him alone smoking it are untrue.

[_the_mind_ 0]

I am not a lawyer but as far as I know... It's against the law in Canada and at least some US states if not all to lie to the police, at least about the report of a crime (false report). When asked if you have committed a crime yourself, you have the right to remain silent but not to give a false name and so on. Obstruction of justice, accessory after the fact, etc. come into play if you are trying to cover for someone, like if Roho and Hakurozan were covering for Wakanoho or if his claims that it was him alone smoking it are untrue.

this is correct sir. you can get arrested on the spot for lying to a cop(in the US). ....and obstruction of justice charges can get you YEARS in jail.

[Asashosakari 18,670]

In any organization whether be it a sport or business, the man or woman at the top must take final responsibility to whatever happens to their organization, that could be something like embezzlement, breach of trust, violence in work place, insider trading etc. If you ever read business stories, you will note the top people do not necessarily resign their position based on the criminal nature of incidents but also for ethical and moral behaviors and conduct of their firms and employees. The Sumo Kyokai is no exception in this regard.

However, I'd say in most cases where indirectly involved business managers are resigning their positions, it's because the one who committed the crime was in some way directly connected to them, e.g. having been hired by that manager, or having personally worked together with him. That doesn't quite compare to how the Kyokai is run - availability of a share permitting, any rikishi who qualifies for a kabu can buy one, and until recently any oyakata who wanted could open up a stable. The riji-kai may have nominal powers to stop each from happening, but obviously these things are generally waved through without any problems. (Just recall how extraordinary it seemed that Kanechika's takeover of the Miyagino share was merely delayed, and it was even a direct intervention by the rijicho himself.)

Let's put it that way: If Tokitsukaze-oyakata had been a riji when the incident happened, I probably would have supported calls for Kitanoumi to resign. But as it was, I just don't think the Kyokai is structured in such a way that you can reasonably blame the head guy for everything some random oyakata does. Blaming him in toto for a whole bunch of scandals is a different thing; that indicates an organization-wide crisis, and for that you most definitely can hold the top guy responsible. But I don't think it had reached that level yet at the time of the incident last year - though arguably it has had now, even if none of Kitanoumi's own deshi had been involved.

Edited September 11, 2008 by Asashosakari

[Jonosuke 28]

My point in equating the Kyokai as an organization is this, if a Billing manager stabs someone to death but that it does not necessarily force the president of the company to resign but if the guy is found to be cooking the books, the CEO may have to. Often in the organizational world, the punishments don't fit the crime. Ethical and moral conduct of the organization also come into the picture. But as you say the top men won't have to take a responsibility for every incident involving his employees.

As for Kitanoumi, if his deshi was caught like this before the Tokitsukaze incident, I'd say he has resigned as from the beginning he was saying the shisho is ultimately responsible for his deshi's conduct. That is basically what forced him to step down, not the gravity of the crime.

[Mark Buckton 1]

a few people I know were this week were comparing the Kitanoumi 'step down' to other sports in Japan.

Earlier this (baseball) season the Yomiuri Giants lost a player to drug use. He was fired - gone quickly - yet the media never one talked about the manager (Hara) as being in anyway responsible.

Another (same team - Yomiuri) player then became embroiled in a scandal over going to a 'love' hotel with a single woman (he was married) and was handed a ban. The woman resigned her job, she is still gone, but the player is back playing - no calls for 'managerial responsibility' as far as I know.

ANother baseball team - Yakult Swallows (Babe Ruth played at Jingu BTW) - same situation in that a player used drugs, was dismissed - no woes for Takada-san though (the manager).

A couple of football players in the J-League have been caught (past couple of years) using drugs / stealing women's underwear / paying schoolgirls to 'chat' etc - fired or suspended IIRC* but never any talk of the manager being held responsible.

Double standards?

* I think one was reinstated after a court case.

[Odoriou 0]

Double standards?

I guess not. I don't know much about japanese baseball or football, but I can hardly imagine that these managers usually live together with their players under the same roof etc. . An ozumo oyakata probably has somewhat more responsibility for his rikishi... (Hit the wall...)

[Mark Buckton 1]

from what I know - the baseball players at least are with the manager far more / longer hours than any rikishi is with his oyakata.

Many oyakata of course live above the heya - but many sekitori live out. - I would venture most. So, after keiko is done, ta ta - see you tomorrow......

[Randomitsuki 2,760]

Many oyakata of course live above the heya - but many sekitori live out. - I would venture most. So, after keiko is done, ta ta - see you tomorrow......

That's true, but there might be other sources of responsibility. For instance, an oyakata raised his deshi and stays his superior throughout the rikishi's career. In contrast (or so I assume, being clueless about baseball), the athletes in other sports sign a contract for a couple of years, i.e. they have a history before and after their current work relationship. Athletes in other sports are like freelancers, whereas sumotori are more like family members, I guess.

[Mark Buckton 1]

good point there, overlooked that one. Still gets round to the individual responsibility concept shown over in the theft is theft thread.

These boys were all adults - bar Wakanoho (at time of crime)

[Jonosuke 28]

Former Roho and Hakurozan accompanied by their lawyer Shionoya met reporters at a park near their condominium on September 12 reiterating their intention to take the Kyokai to the court to have them reinstated.

"We do not accept the dismissal. We do not accept the test results. We will fight this till the end with everything we have so please believe us," Roho said. Asked about Roho's "confession" that they smoked marijuana during the LA Jungyo. "We don't accept their story. I never said any such thing," Roho responded.

"We will be again submitting a letter of inquiry again to the Kyokai and if we find it unsatisfactory then obviously our course of action is to initiate a court proceeding for reinstatement and restoring their reputation," Yasuo Shionoya, their lawyer said.

I guess soon we need a new thread for Roho/Hakurozan/Wakanoho law suits.

[Kintamayama 44,275]

Former Roho and Hakurozan accompanied by their lawyer Shionoya met reporters at a park near their condominium on September 12 reiterating their intention to take the Kyokai to the court to have them reinstated.

On their way to the park:

[HenryK 38]

In any organization whether be it a sport or business, the man or woman at the top must take final responsibility to whatever happens to their organization, that could be something like embezzlement, breach of trust, violence in work place, insider trading etc.

Well I've never heard that a top manager resigned because an employee had smoked weed. And also in the cases you cite, some kind of managerial neglect -- failing checks and balances, undue trust in individuals, non-functioning communciation chanels -- is typically involved before a superior is shown the door. A la "he should have known but he didn't, and for this he needs to take responsibility".

I just don't see that this applies here. In my humble opinion, Kitanoumi got cut down for the wrong thing. This said, I wouldn't be surprised if he is relieved not to be burned with the Kyokai any longer.

[Kintamayama 44,275]

Saturday in the Park:

"Hmm... Microphones sure look tasty.."

Edited September 12, 2008 by Kintamayama

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

From one of the weekly mags:

Kitanoumi lost the plot with sumo scandals

The marijuana scandal is the latest in a string of incidents to plague the Japan Sumo Association. In the last 12 months, the association has had to contend with the death of a young wrestler at the hands of his stablemaster and co-wrestlers and Asashoryu’s pretended sick leave so he could play soccer in Mongolia.

Whenever a scandal broke, outgoing sumo association chief Kitanoumi was frequently castigated by the media for his irresponsible reaction to issues.

Kitanoumi, 55, is the 55th yokozuna (grand champion) and has his own sumo stable as well as being the head of the association until he announced this week he was resigning. “After watching the news about the latest trouble, I regret donating money for his statue,” says one of his supporters in Kitanoumi’s hometown of Sobetsu in Hokkaido. His support group opened a Kitanoumi museum and built a statue worth 8 million yen.

Kitanoumi was mainly criticized by the media for blaming every incident on individual stables and individuals. He would always say: “It’s a matter between the stablemaster and his pupils,” or “The stablemaster is responsible for monitoring the private lives of his wrestlers.”

In the case of Wakanoho’s use of marijuana, Kitanoumi tried to close the case by firing Wakanoho and kicked his stablemaster off the JSA board.

Masato Takahashi, a professor at Kokusai Budo University, who is a specialist in doping issues, says, “Normally, a positive reaction to cannabis cannot be detected 10 days after its use. The sumo association postponed random testing of other wrestlers for two weeks following the Wakanoho case, which seems to me be aimed at hiding new scandals.”

“It is actually Kitanoumi who proactively accepted Russian sumo wrestlers,” recalls one insider at his stable. “He scouted the first Russian sumo wrestler in 2000, and arranged for brothers Roho and Hakurozan to go to different stables because according to association rules, only one foreigner can be accepted by one stable. On the first day that Roho came to the stable, Kitanoumi received something like a receipt from an agent. It was almost like human trafficking.”

While Kitanoumi reportedly did not take care of Russian wrestlers because he didn’t speak their language, the owner of a Russian restaurant has carefully observed them. He says, “Roho and Hakurozan frequently came to my restaurant and often said they felt lonely. Then they would often go to nightclubs and discos where undesirable foreigners gather. Their master should have more carefully taken care of them.”

http://www.japantoday.com/category/shukan-...h-sumo-scandals

Edited September 13, 2008 by Otokonoyama

[Kirinoumi 14]

Wow. I had heard a little about Wakanoho, but I'm just now getting all the details about him, Roho and Hakurozan. My reaction is disappointment, anger, and embarrassment - all directed at the three offenders. If they didn't know about the laws (which I don't believe), that's 100% their fault. You should make it your business to know the laws of the country you live in. What they did, and their reaction to the punishment, is insulting to the sport of sumo, to their host country, and to all law-abiding foreigners in Japan. It is probably embarrassing for people in their home country as well. The only person I have sympathy for in this saga is Kitanoumi. All I can say for the three idiots is good riddance! (Laughing...)

[Treblemaker 254]

Many oyakata of course live above the heya - but many sekitori live out. - I would venture most. So, after keiko is done, ta ta - see you tomorrow......

That's true, but there might be other sources of responsibility. For instance, an oyakata raised his deshi and stays his superior throughout the rikishi's career. In contrast (or so I assume, being clueless about baseball), the athletes in other sports sign a contract for a couple of years, i.e. they have a history before and after their current work relationship. Athletes in other sports are like freelancers, whereas sumotori are more like family members, I guess.

Interesting to note: In North America, professional baseball, football and ice hockey (before the players union were formed in the 60's - which led to free agency and contract negotiations) players were bought and owned outright by the owners of the various teams. Management could dictate when, where and how these players played, and it was more of a closed set - if a player pissed off an owner, he was turfed and was guaranteed never to play in the league again (blackballed).

Ted Lindsey was a classic example. He was one of the top hockey players of the 50's, and for years the heart and soul of the Detroit Red Wings of the NHL, but he made the mistake of speaking out against the owners and advocating a union of players. He was soon dealt to another club, demoted and soon was out of the league.

Sumo is very much a feudal life. Not so different fom the olde days of the above mentioned sports.

[Jonosuke 28]

Ted Lindsey was a classic example. He was one of the top hockey players of the 50's, and for years the heart and soul of the Detroit Red Wings of the NHL, but he made the mistake of speaking out against the owners and advocating a union of players. He was soon dealt to another club, demoted and soon was out of the league.

Sumo is very much a feudal life. Not so different fom the olde days of the above mentioned sports.

It never makes sense to compare Ozumo to another sport but bringing Ted Lindsay into the comparison even makes less sense.

Even after he played with Chicago and retired, he came back and played for Detroit for one season. His old boss was the one eventually thrown out disgraced.

In a way Ted was a Tenryu of NHL but the structures of Ozumo are so different to make any comparison reasonable, especially with team sports.

[Treblemaker 254]

Ted Lindsey was a classic example. He was one of the top hockey players of the 50's, and for years the heart and soul of the Detroit Red Wings of the NHL, but he made the mistake of speaking out against the owners and advocating a union of players. He was soon dealt to another club, demoted and soon was out of the league.

Sumo is very much a feudal life. Not so different fom the olde days of the above mentioned sports.

It never makes sense to compare Ozumo to another sport but bringing Ted Lindsay into the comparison even makes less sense.

Even after he played with Chicago and retired, he came back and played for Detroit for one season. His old boss was the one eventually thrown out disgraced.

In a way Ted was a Tenryu of NHL but the structures of Ozumo are so different to make any comparison reasonable, especially with team sports.

Perhaps you're right. I stand properly corrected.