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Jonosuke

What will the Kyokai do now - Roho and Hakurozan Issue?

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It has been already reported that Kitanoumi oyakata insisted he would not resign his position as the Kyokai chairmanship even with the positive result from Hakurozan's B sample. Some close to Kitanoumi Beya are saying the oyakata is prepared to leave but only on his term.

According to them, he is saying, "If I resign it means I am admitting Hakurozan's guilt. As long as Hakurozan is maintaining his innocence I cannot allow myself to do it."

Hakurozan through a Kitanoumi Beya lawyer indicated his refusal to have his B Sample tested again by the same laboratory (Mitsubishi Chemical Medience). Kitanoumi oyakata already told he wanted another lab to have his recruit's sample tested and he asked the sample to be sent to the Scientific Investigation Laboratory of the Japan Police Agency.

"We cannot allow a private lab to decide Hakurozan's whole future. If he is proved positive, it will hang over him for the rest of his life. Can a private research institution take that kind of responsibility? The only organization which can do that is the police," Kitanoumi oyakata reportedly told them. "Hakurozan is asking for the police to investigate. He believes only then the whole truth will come out. Kitanoumi oyakata agrees with him," a close associate of Kitanoumi said.

However others are saying this is just another reflection of Kitanoumi's reluctance to fulfill his responsibility as the head of Sumo Association. "Because he does not want the onus of taking the responsibility himself, he wants others to do it for him. Lack of his leadership is glaring," a writer closely following Ozumo said.

The Prevention Committee's Prof Oninshi said the final result should be ready by September 8 though Hakurozan's B Sample won't be likely send out to the police lab until September 8 at the earliest.

"If the final tests come back positive, we will need to annouce it with an appropriate penalty from the Prevention Committee. Obviously we will hold our meeting and send our recommendation to the Directors," Prof Onishi said.

If the final result is positive, then the Kyokai must deal not only with Roho and Hakurozan but also the futures of Otake and Kitanoumi oyakata. Otake oyakata already indicated he would be prepared to take the case to the courts if he felt Roho has been treated unfairly.

Even with all the emergency meetings to be held in the Kyokai on September 8, whatever happens at the meetings, however now there is one definite outcome, that is Kitanoumi won't resign his chairmanship by letting his "feeling" leaked out now. By dictating his wish now Kitanoumi is making it certain that other oyakata won't force the issue then and he will leave only on his own terms.

Edited by Jonosuke

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If B is positive, and the brothers adhere to their claim they didn't inhale it willingly, the lawyer will probably then offer some ridiculous explanation for the drug's presence, such as someone held a lit reefer under their noses while they were sleeping. He'd have to come up with something, or else they would have to admit to lying about never being around it.

Maybe they aren't lying. I mean, there are other ways to get it in your system - using it in food, or liqour. I can imagine them being over at Waka's place - or anywhere else, for that matter - and having a plate of delicious cookies placed before them. "Hey guys, try these."

Well, it is possible...

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When the samples were sent to the WADA approved lab, were they tested *only* for THC? Or were the samples given the full range of tests that athletes can expect when giving samples to WADA? If the latter, then perhaps there is a bit of good news to come out of this, as no steroids have been mentioned.

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Someone from JADA (Japan anti doping association) is quoted as saying the tests were done "hastily". "Usually, tests are agreed upon between the two parties, the tester and the tested. This was not done in this case, and when it's not done, there will be constant mudslinging and accusations..", said the person.

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According to them, he is saying, "If I resign it means I am admitting Hakurozan's guilt. As long as Hakurozan is maintaining his innocence I cannot allow myself to do it."

Hakurozan through a Kitanoumi Beya lawyer indicated his refusal to have his B Sample tested again by the same laboratory (Mitsubishi Chemical Medience). Kitanoumi oyakata already told he wanted another lab to have his recruit's sample tested and he asked the sample to be sent to the Scientific Investigation Laboratory of the Japan Police Agency.

"We cannot allow a private lab to decide Hakurozan's whole future. If he is proved positive, it will hang over him for the rest of his life. Can a private research institution take that kind of responsibility? The only organization which can do that is the police," Kitanoumi oyakata reportedly told them. "Hakurozan is asking for the police to investigate. He believes only then the whole truth will come out. Kitanoumi oyakata agrees with him," a close associate of Kitanoumi said.

That is moving loyality towards Hakurozan heh... "He says he tells the truth so nothing else can prove otherwise!". Ok, surely no loality but attempt to save one's own ass at all costs. If the lab at hand is the only WADA-certificate lab, then it surely has very strict protocol testing stuff like this too. B-sample result will be positive in any good lab (or if it won't be, then very lucky human Hakurozan is). "Police to investigate"? What does that even mean? Didn't they already do that searching thing and question asking? Oh the lab then....how nice.

Also I doubt anything else was tested by that WADA-lab since it is not WADA case, just a lab that has that special status in Japan. Labs test only what they are asked and in this case the whole idea was to test for use of cannabis/marijuana.

Aki basho comes! At least tachi-ai is still good and sensible!

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Someone from JADA (Japan anti doping association) is quoted as saying the tests were done "hastily". "Usually, tests are agreed upon between the two parties, the tester and the tested. This was not done in this case, and when it's not done, there will be constant mudslinging and accusations..", said the person.

That's technically true, I guess, but I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes. Athletes in IOC-sanctioned sports "willingly" submit to whatever testing regimen their national federation uses, because they won't get to take part in national and international competition otherwise. Sure there was no such implicit or explicit agreement with the rikishi, but then they're more or less employees of the Kyokai, which isn't true for other athletes vis-a-vis their feds.

And in the end, there's plenty of mudslinging about positive doping tests in others sports, too, even if the athlete knew perfectly well that they could get busted by a surprise test anytime.

Edited by Asashosakari

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If Kitanoumi does resign as rijicho tomorrow as reported elsewhere, it would because of this case (I presume). Can he expel a rikishi from his heya - in order to try and regain some face?

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If Kitanoumi does resign as rijicho tomorrow as reported elsewhere, it would because of this case (I presume). Can he expel a rikishi from his heya - in order to try and regain some face?

I'd say way too late, and after going on record that he won't "sell out" his rikishi and that he believes him, he'll look even a bigger ass than he is,

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Otake Beya's lawyer had a press conference today and told reporters that they requested not to have the sample re-tested at the WADA sanctioned lab. Normally in Doping testing not requesting the second test, it means that the first testing result will stand and the Prevention Committee Anti Doping group will be making his first positive test result to be final.

However the lawyer says he plans to submit a list of questions to the Prevention Committee meeting to be held on September 8 asking them how the committee came to their conclusion specifically pointing out improper collection methods and lack of prior coordination as well as lack of solid evidence such as smoking apparatus. "We want them to clearly state how they could determine the individual could have absorbed marijuana directly. I want them to prove it objectively," the lawyer said.

The lawyer says they are planning to have Roho tested again at another institution and even the directors at their special meeting on September 8 hands down a penalty, they will not follow it. "We will not accept any of their decision. I can tell you that now categoricaly," the lawyer told reporters.

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The current Kyokai directors:

Kitanoumi (chairman, Yokozuna Kitanoumi)

Musashigawa (Yokozuna Mienoumi)

Oshima (Ozeki Asahikuni)

Isenoumi (Sekiwake Fujinogawa)

Dewanoumi (Sekiwake Washuyama)

Hanaregoma (Ozeki Kaiketsu)

Tomozuna (Sekiwake Kaiki)

Kokonoe (Yokozuna Chiyonofuji)

Nishonozeki (Sekiwake Kongo)

Magaki (Yokozuna Wakanohana II) resigned his position.

They need a majority vote to pass any submission.

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However the lawyer says he plans to submit a list of questions to the Prevention Committee meeting to be held on September 8 asking them how the committee came to their conclusion specifically pointing out improper collection methods and lack of prior coordination as well as lack of solid evidence such as smoking apparatus. "We want them to clearly state how they could determine the individual could have absorbed marijuana directly. I want them to prove it objectively," the lawyer said.

Doesn't that just give the Committee carte blanche to make public exactly how far above the detection limit Roho's sample came in? Maybe I'm totally wrong, but my gut feeling is that the brothers's tests will show values so high (no pun intended) that they would have needed to spend hours in the cannabis equivalent of a meat smoker to reach them without using any pot themselves. And if that's the case, all the denials will look utterly ridiculous. (Not to mention that Roho maintains he's never even been together with anybody who has smoked pot.)

Seems risky to me to provoke the Committee in such a way that their only defense will be to put it all on the table. Even if there are oyakata in the Kyokai who are sympathetic to Roho and Hakurozan, you're making it practically impossible for things to be handled in some face-saving way (let's say, the infamous one-basho suspension). Either Roho and his lawyer are grasping desperately at every available straw here, or they're very sure that there's indeed something wrong with the tests.

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The lawyer says they are planning to have Roho tested again at another institution and even the directors at their special meeting on September 8 hands down a penalty, they will not follow it. "We will not accept any of their decision. I can tell you that now categoricaly," the lawyer told reporters.

That will be interesting to see. If Rohou gets suspended, he will show up for his non-bouts anyway? Just for threatening like this, I would throw Ootake and Rohou out of Sumou NOW and move all rikishi to..ummm.. well...how about Magaki-beya??.

And where is Ex-Taihou, and how is a legend like him allowing lawyers hired by him (presumably) undermine the very core of sumo?

Wow.

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That will be interesting to see. If Rohou gets suspended, he will show up for his non-bouts anyway?

I was thinking they might hold up the torikumi committee at gunpoint to force them into putting Roho on the schedule. (Maybe he can fight Hakurozan 15 times...) More seriously though, I guess they'd attempt to get some type of temporary injunction against leaving Roho off the schedule.

Things are getting rather surreal now, that's for sure. (Insert LSD joke here.)

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Otake Beya lawyer's remarks are making many within the Kyokai as well as a vast majority of the general public bewildered and aghast.

"What Roho is saying doesn't make any sense at all. If Otake oyakata, his shisho is approving it, they will have to have enough resolve even preparing to fold the heya," one Kyokai director said.

The detailed testing was done at Mitsubishi Chemical Medience Laboratory, the only laboratory sanctioned in Japan by World Anti Doping Agency to conduct full scale doping tests. The urine samples were separated in A and B and when the A shows up positive, the subject can request to have the B sample tested.

Roho had his A sample showed up positive but the Roho side decided not to have the B sample tested. They are accusing there was an irregularity in testing procedures and they refuse to accept the test result.

"Not asking to be tested again is akin to throwing away your own rights. Perhaps it is their lack of understanding. I haven't heard of anyone stupid enough to resort to such action," said Yoshio Kuroda, Professor Emeritus of Tokyo University and chairman of Japan Anti Doping Organization.

"The laboratory we have used is internationally recognized for highest standards in this field. When the result comes back positive from such an institution, regardless of what he says whether he used marijuana or not, in my view I have to say it is proven positive. When he is saying, 'Forget about the B testing", then it is like saying 'I go along with the positive finding'. This is not about whether you accept or reject the test result. This is the rule all sports in the world are following," Hidetsugu Moriya, Yokozuna Deliberation Committee member and Chief of Kashima Rosai General Hospital said.

"The Kyokai as an organization has taken charge and executed this screening. I cannot feel nothing but dismay and anger for such a rebellious attitude from an individual, member of the organization. Just think of it, if this progresses further and creates more divisions, they will likely lose their place in the Kyokai. This can be very well viewed as if we, Japanese, are challenging firmly established world medical technology standards. The Kyokai as a whole and especially their executives need to hear what the general public have been telling them," said Kunihiro Sugiyama, former NHK announcer and Sumo Press Club member.

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However the lawyer says he plans to submit a list of questions to the Prevention Committee meeting to be held on September 8 .

Hakurozan and Rohou are planning to be present at this meeting. That should be fun for all sides involved..

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Otake Beya lawyer Yasuo Shionoya's Roho Conspiracy Theory

----------------================--------------------------------------------

o News of the positive result was already on air on NHK before the principals were fully informed (implying someone intentionally leaked the news).

o Participants were supposedly to be able to select their own collection cup but it was handed by an oyakata and the cup had the rikishi's name already labeled.

o Testing was initially supposed to have been done anonymously only, not for the purpose of identifying any specific rikishi and their use

o Participants were told if a certain marking appeared on the testing kit, it was considered to be negative however even a similar marking appeared on his own kit as a rikishi sitting next to him, he was told he had a positive result

o Even though the chief testing officer, Prof Onishi told him the retesting could take some time and he could go back to his heya, he was detained by an oyakata

o There is no reason to believe the sample being tested is Roho's at all.

Edited by Jonosuke

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When I first heard that Wakanoho was arrested for possession and admitted it (later I realised it probably meant he admitted to the lost purse with the marijuana cigarette being his), in the first bout of frustration with the stupid kid I said that instead of falling on his virtual sword like a proper Japanese, he should have acted more gaijin-like, claim innocence and assert he was set up.

Now I wish Roho and Hakurozan acted like proper Japanese and fell on their swords, instead of dragging Otake* and Kitanoumi (and the rest of the Kyokai indirectly) into this mire. Women, eh? We're never satisfied.

I can only hope that this will really be the lancing that lets out the pus and leaves drained Kyokai to heal. God knows it's stinky enough.

*and indirectly Taiho! Roho really was Taiho's deshi, his last perhaps, and got the "ho" from Taiho's shikona, 'though that wasn't mentioned by the scandal-happy media yet AFAIK.

ps. I do pity Kitanoumi - you may sneer at his indecisiveness and lack of initiative, but he's literally hounded by the press. On coming out of that sauna (oh shock that he'd want to relax some at time such as this) they kept sticking mikes under his nose and asking did it feel good and what are his thoughts now? And in some of the recent photos, he looks stricken and pitiable, not the frowning bulky Kitanoumi of old. Sigh. :-P

pps. Otake really should have known better than to wash Kyokai dirty laundry in public. No matter how bad it gets, you always try to solve things inside an organisation (university, hospitals, police...) first, so that when the news break you have at least a partial solution ready. Yeah, some of you will say it's covering one's posterior, corruption within organisations etc. That's true. But it's also true that those "inside", who work in the same environment and face the same problems, can more easily understand what lead to the problem and so help solve it...

ppps. Ms Uchidate sounded more sad than stern when she gave that comment after(?) soken. And she has a new haircut... she doesn't look so much like Yoda now, for some reason.

Edited by Manekineko
ppps.

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When I first heard that Wakanoho was arrested for possession and admitted it (later I realised it probably meant he admitted to the lost purse with the marijuana cigarette being his), in the first bout of frustration with the stupid kid I said that instead of falling on his virtual sword like a proper Japanese, he should have acted more gaijin-like, claim innocence and assert he was set up.

Wakanohou was caught red-handed with the stuff in his hands and stuff at home and at the heya and pipes. Not the same case at all. Rohou and Hakurozan only testied positive and have a lot of room to squirm out of it.

Edited by Kintamayama

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Wakanohou was caught red-handed with the stuff in his hands and stuff at home and at the heya and pipes. Not the same case at all. Rohou and Hakurozan only testied positive and have a lot of room to squirm out of it.

I know, I know. Above was purely subjective rant, with the ranting part previously vented in a handy OT thread. Thank you.

Edited by Manekineko
spellyng

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ps. I do pity Kitanoumi - you may sneer at his indecisiveness and lack of initiative, but he's literally hounded by the press.

I know, and I don't feel good criticizing him over this. I've always thought that he handled other people's indecisiveness (Takasago, Magaki, etc.) about as well as he could, given the constraints of his position, which is why I find it rather distressing to see Kitanoumi himself floundering like that now. Worse, I have the sinking feeling that his "I won't accept the re-test even if it's positive" attitude was a perfect (though probably unintentional) assist to all the kitchen sink-throwing that Roho's lawyer engaged in today. If the chairman of the Kyokai won't stand behind the findings commissioned by his own organization, why should any rikishi?

It actually makes me wonder whether there should perhaps be a separation between those oyakata who serve as executive officers and those who run stables. Over the years, there has been a myriad of stories and rumours about highly-ranking oyakata who are so busy with their organizational duties that they are barely involved with the running of their own stables. Maybe the example of Hakuho and Kumagatani-oyakata finally puts to rest the notion that "only a yokozuna can raise a yokozuna" and all the things it insinuates about who can and who can't be a good shisho, which sometimes seems like it's used merely as justification for why all these old guys are still figure-heading their stables even though they don't actually participate much in the day-to-day running of it.

Whee, that turned into quite a rant...

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This can be very well viewed as if we, Japanese, are challenging firmly established world medical technology standards.

I always laugh when the "we Japanese" comes out.

This guy must be the spokesman for all Japanese people. Or maybe he is only speaking for all the sportsmen of Japan. Haha.

Either way, there are lots of very strict procedures that must be observed when testing urine for drugs. If any of these were broken or there were any irregularities then Roho's lawyer has something there.

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I think the "we, Japanese" was meant to reflect that Kitanoumi, as chairman of the association for Japan's national sport, wants to reject standard drug testing procedures. I wondered when I read Kitanoumi's remarks if he realized some people would interpret it this way, thinking of sumo as representative of Japan, regardless of his reasoning for saying such things in the first place.

I understand from my recent surfing that WADA procedures are very strict, including maintaining the integrity of the sample, using control numbers and not the athlete's name, and the test procedures themselves. However, I don't know if the initial testing followed these procedures. I recall reading in an earlier posts that the samples were identified by a number, not a name, yet here is the lawyer saying something about a name on a cup. I'm confused, but that may be what the lawyer is trying to do, confuse things :/

Otokonoyama questioned earlier in this thread if a clear chain of custody was established for the samples. I get the distinct impression that the kyokai was not prepared (else why wait for membership to use the WADA accredited lab) to follow through if any of initial screening tests came back with a positive result. If there is any question about the testing process, it could be there before the samples were sent to the lab. Without the custody firmly established, it could be claimed the samples may have been tampered with.

Regards,

Pak

Edit: Fixed a double double wording :/

Edited by Pak

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A few hours before the rijiikai convenes-these are the latest rumors: Kitanoumi is definitely resigning. A successor will be chosen immediately. The leading candidate is 60 year old Musashigawa Oyakata. Small problem-he's from Dewanoumi Ichimon like Kitanoumi, and other Ichimon may object to that, resulting in more turbulence. Not much speculation on the brothers, but with Kitanoumi gone, I don't see how they will be allowed to stay. And how will Ootake react? I'm pretty sure ex-Taihou will put a lid on him.

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In a special interview with Houchi, Hakurozan is threatening to go to the Russian Embassy to seek help. He is saying he was done great injustice and more than anything, his honor has been tarnished. He is also saying that if he gets thrown out of sumo he will take the Prevention Committee members to court.

Geezzzzz..:

20080908-4239691-1-L.jpg

Edited by Kintamayama

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A few hours before the rijiikai convenes-these are the latest rumors: Kitanoumi is definitely resigning. A successor will be chosen immediately.

And this is all over the morning's papers and TV stations.

Oddly Hakurozan has been quiet of late even with Roho still protesting his innocence.

Mark

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