On being guests in foreign countries

[Kotoviki 16]

Sekihiryu says it all!!!

We as foreigners get hit the hardest all the time!!! Granted sometimes foreigners need a good yelling at but in general we are not all ignorant. (Neener, neener...)

More often than not a foreigner will likely be told about some manner they are breaking when a Japanese next to them is doing the same and nobody says a word!

One friend told me "it is because they want you to do it right and set a good example.. " ha ha ha ha!!!!

On the other hand I should throw in a couple of good things.. not related to the phones..

Twice I have encountered late night extremely drunk old men who hold a grudge against Americans for the war I guess.. One time I was standing and some old man started yelling at me and was so obnoxious. Everyone looked sorry for me. A man pulled me over and got up and gave me his seat in the corner and then he and another businessman blocked the man from me. That was so kind of them. And that man was surely tired, after midnight, he wanted to sit down that hour but gave up his seat to shelter me.

Another time I was sitting and some man came in front of me and again started screaming and yelling and bothering me, I put my head down and tried to ignore him. I made no emotion to anything trying to get him to leave me alone. Soon a few men came over and moved him over and told him to be quiet and again three or four of them blocked my seat so the man couldn't come to me.

Of course those drunks targeted me because I was a foreigner but then those decent businessmen came to my rescue again because I was a foreigner.

God bless Japan! I still think the good outweighs the bad. I'll let you know after another 20 years!

[Jakusotsu 5,006]

Twice I have encountered late night extremely drunk old men who hold a grudge against Americans for the war I guess...

Reminds me of this incident with Baruto.

[Kaikitsune Makoto 189]

I don't think it is so strange that foreigners might get more harsh treatment when it comes to nuisance behaviour or breaking rules although sometimes foreigner also gets away due to being foreigner (who doesn't understand how things are done). Still I fully admit that Italian/Spanish exchange students walking against red light so that I needed to brake quite strongly and deliberately stopped quite close to them, annoy me more than Finns doing the same. Somehow the thought that they come to a foreign country and act in such stupid and reckless way pissed me off more. They should "behave" even more so than Finns who live here and who can be reckless in their own country. Certainly can be an odd way of thinking but I am pretty sure foreigners' lack of attention to rules or customs annoys many people too. Similar example was when a bunch of very loud German exchange students started a happy get together-chit chat in university's computer lab where dozens of people actually work and "silence" is written everywhere. How damn arrogant was that. They were thrown out of the lab soon and same would have happened to Finns but the fact that they were exchange students and yet so damn arrogant and not respecting the silence at all was even more annoying.

Britons' reputation of going on rampage abroad in tourist destinations is an extreme example. In Japan the foreigner sticks out more and while foreigners might even irritate some Japanese by just being there, it is not that big wonder if breaking some simple rules is frowned upon even more than if Japanese would do that.

Nobody would accept it if some guest of yours would behave in disrespecting or/and bad way in your house. Foreigners are "guests" in foreign country so isn't it natural their behaviour is more under microscope if some questioable behaviour detected? It doesn't have to have ANYTHING to do with racism or discrimination.

I am a big supporter of eviction/exile? of foreign criminals. I don't understand why a refugee with armed robberies, assaults and rape can't be kicked out of the country more easily. Refugees have special role as they have fleed their own country's situation. So even more so with "regular" foreigners. IMO foreigner who does a serious crime should be thrown out of the country and never let back and most of the refugees too in similar circumstances although it is trickier question as they can get killed in home country etc. Finns who do serious crimes still do it in their own country and can't be kicked anywhere. The crimes themselves are as obnoxious whether the perpetrator is a Finn or a foreigner but foreigner can be thrown out of the country or should be thrown more easily. Does that make me sound like a right wing bigot? I am all in favour of cultural melting pots and mixing of nationalities and foreigners' arrival but what is the reason not to create simple rules that if certain level crimes are committed, foreigner is thrown out of the country no matter what...

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Nobody would accept it if some guest of yours would behave in disrespecting or/and bad way in your house. Foreigners are "guests" in foreign country so isn't it natural their behaviour is more under microscope if some questioable behaviour detected? It doesn't have to have ANYTHING to do with racism or discrimination.

At what point does someone not ethnically Japanese stop being a guest in Japan? Many foreign residents have careers, families, and are very active in their communities. Should they be considered guests, and treated as such?

[Kintamayama 41,316]

At what point does someone not ethnically Japanese stop being a guest in Japan? Many foreign residents have careers, families, and are very active in their communities. Should they be considered guests, and treated as such?

I'd say never. In a western country, say being an American in Sweden won't be that conspicuous because if you don't speak it will be hard to tell the difference. Obviously it's not the case in Japan. And gaijin are always considered gaijin even if you've lived there all your life. Of course, to your close family circle it won't be so, but we're talking general public perception.

That being said, my experience in Japan has always been good-never had a problem with old men and young women or those in between.. But I lived there as a kid so it's probably different, and I haven't been there more than 10 days running as an adult. Or maybe I'm really polite.

[Kaikitsune Makoto 189]

At what point does someone not ethnically Japanese stop being a guest in Japan? Many foreign residents have careers, families, and are very active in their communities. Should they be considered guests, and treated as such?

Is there such time really? Guests can be treated well and hospitality is found everywhere to varying degrees. If foreigner in Japan has built a career, contributes to community in other ways and has set up a family, that means integration has been strong. Still if such a foreigner decides to stab someone to death when on drunken rampage, the "guest" status or foreigner status comes to the surface again. I am pretty sure this kind of phenomenon happens in most cultures. At least in the ones I am more familiar with. I would think this is more emphasized in a country like Japan where foreigners are really much more conspicuous and where the principle of not sticking out too much from the bunch is still stronger than in many other countries. This topic just brought to my mind the strange system of not deporting foreign criminals easier. Hence I was thinking more of real crime than just less harmful nuisance behaviour.

And the all time favourite detail about foreigners anywhere is that if you don't learn the language, then complaining about lack of opportunities, lack of social network or whatever is idiotic. If you integrate into a new country, learn the language.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

I thank you both for your thoughts.

[Doitsuyama 1,156]

At what point does someone not ethnically Japanese stop being a guest in Japan? Many foreign residents have careers, families, and are very active in their communities. Should they be considered guests, and treated as such?

Is there such time really? Guests can be treated well and hospitality is found everywhere to varying degrees. If foreigner in Japan has built a career, contributes to community in other ways and has set up a family, that means integration has been strong. Still if such a foreigner decides to stab someone to death when on drunken rampage, the "guest" status or foreigner status comes to the surface again. I am pretty sure this kind of phenomenon happens in most cultures. At least in the ones I am more familiar with. I would think this is more emphasized in a country like Japan where foreigners are really much more conspicuous and where the principle of not sticking out too much from the bunch is still stronger than in many other countries. This topic just brought to my mind the strange system of not deporting foreign criminals easier. Hence I was thinking more of real crime than just less harmful nuisance behaviour.

And the all time favourite detail about foreigners anywhere is that if you don't learn the language, then complaining about lack of opportunities, lack of social network or whatever is idiotic. If you integrate into a new country, learn the language.

What about the point of time when the foreigner in question assumes the nationality of the host country? I think many of your points become somewhat invalid then.

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

What about the point of time when the foreigner in question assumes the nationality of the host country?

Well, legally they're not foreigners then any more.

I watch the stupidity of Finnish (and European in general) multiculturalism cult with growing horror. It seems as if the white, heterosexual man is deemed to be the only one left capable of answering for his own actions. Everyone else seems to be able to get away from whatever idiocy they're up to.

The Chamberlains are everywhere. We live in a victimocracy.

[Kotoviki 16]

John is definitely right on!

I love Japan and have no intention of returning to the US. I plan to retire here and have plans in the near future to buy land to build a home out here in the country bumpkin area where I live!

I honestly can't imagine living anywhere else anymore and when I went to the US a few times the longer I had been here the more of an outsider I felt in my own country. Of course since I speak English (not as well as when I first came to Japan.. I think!) it was easy to adapt. It is easy to adapt in the US because anything goes I think! But I felt like an outsider the whole time I was there. I wondered "is this how Japanese feel when they come here?" I couldn't wait to get home to buy green tea in vending machines and find a good cheap kaitenzushi shop!

However, in 20 years I have had to adapt to Japan and throw away some of my own independence to do so. I think I have been extremely lucky because I have felt I didn't compromise quite as much as some people I know have but I wonder if I am compromising and not thinking about it therefore not talking about it with friends.

And as John and others know the longer you live here the more you have to adapt. You can start out doing stupid things, some get by and some you get spanked for but the longer you are here the people who know you expect you to be Japanese. They do not expect you to be an "ignorant gaijin" so if you want to keep their respect you must learn to be Japanese.

I read an article about something Kasugano Oyakata said about Tochinoshin on his Makuuchi debut & it reminded me how we as gaijin should try to be better than average Japanese!

Realizing he is talking about Sumo but I think it applies to those of us who have decided to make this our home:

Kasugano-oyakata also offered, "I want him to do proper sumo even more Japanese-like the Japanese rikishi themselves."

I have permanent residency here which means I can do everything except vote. By everything I include that the man at immigrations said "now you can do anything, you don't have to be a teacher, you can open a business, run a yakitori stand or even be homeless!" I thought "yes, being homeless is exactly what I was aiming for, that is why I got my permanent residency!" I am not required to report jobs when I quit or start new ones and I have no minimum required salary to maintain a visa. But in the end I'm still a gaijin and I have a "gaijin card" I must carry at all times. I will also need to be fingerprinted like all other gaijin should I leave Japan and come back under the new laws.

I have a friend who has citizenship, he doesn't vote anyway and had to give up his US passport. Not worth it because even though he has a Japanese wife and lots of kids he is still a gaijin!

I think that while many of us are nearly accepted into society as being nearly no different than Japanese (as long as we make no huge mistakes) there are still many that aren't so lucky and who are treated more as gaijin. I feel sorry for them. Their fault, societies fault?

One of the best compliments I've ever gotten (in my opinion) was when a good friend of mine who had lived in the US for some time and is 12 years my senior said to me "you are much more Japanese than I am!" He picked up a lot of American traits while working in the US for just 3 years. He even plans to retire in the US.

John and I love it here and we are willing to make sacrifices but we both know that we have to be careful to behave better than Japanese because if we don't we are likely to be scolded first even if the Japanese person next to us is doing the same bad thing!

Of course when you get stopped for a traffic violation it always helps to be gaiijn.. "I can't speak Japanese, I'm sorry!" I've been stopped twice both times more than 10 years ago. I used that terrible excuse and I got away with a "don't do that again!" They were stupid things, "following a truck through a red light because I couldn't see the light" don't do that anymore....

Entered a train station drop off area (one of the U shapes) going the wrong direction because my friend was about to miss the last train. I didn't even think what I was doing but there was a koban (police box) right in front of me.. I got away on that one as well...

Now that I have my third Gold License (safety driver-long term) I doubt I can use that excuse any longer so I have to drive even better!!!

PS John that Yuktata photo is fabulous! I want to see you wear that in person at the Sept basho!!

[Mark Buckton 1]

What about the point of time when the foreigner in question assumes the nationality of the host country? I think many of your points become somewhat invalid then.

Imagine a Turk taking German nationality Doits. Hand on heart, and honestly speaking, overnight does he / she become a 'recongnised' (not legal but popularly recognised) German? ;-)

John spot on. Kaikitsune - odd post there?

I today have a contract to lecture on (2 forms of) Japanese theatre and history - to Japanese. Work and have worked with with various Japanese agencies to check their own explanations of their culture / history when preparing info for release overseas.

BUT, I am still foreign and by birth always will be. Being one thing by birth and another by profession / recognition / acceptance is another entirely.

Like ilovetochinoshin, I am a permanent resident of Japan, have no plans to leave and can take up any (bar some national security related public) post I am accepted and qualified for. Every gaijin in Japan has something in their pocket (or should have - rightly or wrongly) I helped rewrite several years ago so the opportunities are there.......do people take them. JG will hate that - me in his pocket every day of the week! :-D ごめんねー！

On the reverse side, were I to behave badly, would I be treated worse? Possibly　but that should be dealt with if and when - not assumed or planned for. Do I deserve to be kicked out of a country for a crime committed in a land I have committed to, and that nation has committed to (letting me live as a permanent resident) - I don't think so.

If I commit a crime in Japan, my penalty should be in Japan, and if I am released after that penalty is served, that life remains in Japan.

Perhaps of the names JG listed only I and one other have family reasons for being here, and arguably more (than average) protection than many Japanese - again rightly or wrongly, but were I single, I would also opt to stay.

Add to that my passport - British - again, rightly or wrongly, one of the 'better' ones to have (not my words - the words of many many Japanese I have spoken to). My responsibility that they think this way?

Life is far more complicated than you make out KM. Come over for an extended period - a couple / 3 / 4 years. See what you think.

Edited August 2, 2008 by Mark Buckton

[Doitsuyama 1,156]

What about the point of time when the foreigner in question assumes the nationality of the host country? I think many of your points become somewhat invalid then.

Imagine a Turk taking German nationality Doits. Hand on heart, and honestly speaking, overnight does he / she become a 'recongnised' (not legal but popularly recognised) German? :-D

There are several ethnic Turks with German nationality in parliament and I am pretty sure they are recognized as Germans. You are right that it's not 100%, but I guess "throwing them out of country in case of severe crimes" becomes totally invalid which was one of Kaikitsune's points.