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Nagoya Basho Viewing

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Info Sumo has demonstrated complete disregard for clearly stated requests to respect ownership of images / property as is seen in the 'old images wanted' thread; (he advertises the fact that he took pics under such conditions as follows) the NSK museum has more than a few signs in English and Japanese (atop display cases) asking specifically that photos not be taken.

You are getting out of control I presume - my assumption would be that he got permission to make the photos.

Permission (particularly so if stated honestly the intention to use in the public domain / mags / newspapers / internet etc) is given based on an application to the NSK Museum staff - the answer is not given the same day.

Sorry, but this isn't true. I got the permission to take some pics for a heya magazine from the museum staff on the same day. Maybe it helped the Oyakata was with me ...

See? And I am totally sure Mark would have assumed that you made the pictures without any permission. Just as I said - out of control and living in his own world.

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WOW, I had no idea hosting services were so expensive in Europe. I pay about what I-S pays in a month, for a whole year. That said, I never have asked for any money for access to my content, and I hope I never will. I understand that the I-S people are trying to mitigate costs, and I'm very much in the same boat that Kintamayama is. Its disappointing, but I completely understand why it is being done. I could care less about the legality of it, as many of us have no other option, and for people to essentially say that those of us with no TV options do not deserve any access to video(be it paid or unpaid) is simply ludicrous, elitist, and rude. As stated in other threads, I'd gladly pay a subscription for a good feed, available on demand. Heck, I'd even be willing to pay a HIGHER subscription fee to get all the bouts down to mae-zumo. That, quite simply, would rock.

Theoretically, if someone went to a day's match with a bunch of storage media, recorded it, and made it available online for a fee, that would be completely legal, right? Or does that run into the "No distribution, recording, yadda yadda, without the express written consent of the NSK?"

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Entering Info_Sumo site not only do I not see any Nagoya's bouts, but all the others from the others bashos seem to have evanished. Am I still sleeping or has something happened ? Thanks....

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I pay about what I-S pays in a month, for a whole year.

And You're hosting hi-res video streams as well?

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You are quite right all the basho videos have gone away.

I have to assume in response to the tempest in a teapot that

seems to have taken eveyones attention away from the fact

that we actually have a HON BASHO in progress.

Granted for a large portion of the world the NSK feed is the only

way to view the action. Some of us are lucky enough to be

able to get the TVJapan re-broadcast of the NHK makuuchi bouts.

I say lucky though I pay for that a whopping $300 a year which

makes 30 euro annually a bargain basement price.

As usual the ultra conservative appear to have had their say and

their day on this topic. Apparently our French compatriots

have said enough is enough if there aren't any videos there won't

be anything to complain about.

Shame on you all.

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One thing : don't say "the French" like we were a group that all sharing the same view as Info-Sumo. Some are agreeing the purpose of I-S act, other're not. Don't put all the eggs in the same net. (Holiday feeling...)

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Shame on you all.

OK, now that you've admonished us "all", you can rest on your laurels. Maybe one day you'll find it in your heart to forgive us "all". I didn't see you defending the "French compatriots" before "they" decided to take everything off their forum. Then maybe, MAYBE you could get on your high horse and preach to the masses. I actually didn't see you taking part in this discussion at all.

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What's going to happen now?

I guess some guys already payed...intention was to see the videos...hmmm

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What's going to happen now?

I guess some guys already payed...intention was to see the videos...hmmm

The movies will probably be placed in a "closed to the public" area, and whoever will pay will receive a special URL.

That's what I'd do, if..

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The movies will probably be placed in a "closed to the public" area, and whoever will pay will receive a special URL.

Correct, they're in a restricted sub-forum.

And yes, I "payed" - long before this basho.

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I pay about what I-S pays in a month, for a whole year.

And You're hosting hi-res video streams as well?

No, of course not. But I could have 250 people watch 200 Mb worth of video 100 times each every month, without going over my limit. My point wasn't that one host was better than the other, it was that I was amazed at the high cost of their host.

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I pay about what I-S pays in a month, for a whole year.

And You're hosting hi-res video streams as well?

No, of course not. But I could have 250 people watch 200 Mb worth of video 100 times each every month, without going over my limit. My point wasn't that one host was better than the other, it was that I was amazed at the high cost of their host.

Your host sounds interesting. Could you tell us who it is?

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edited>>>

(b) - do a little internet research on a man named.... (I have just forgotten) in Matsumoto (Nagano) - a man the whole nation jumped on when the AUM issue broke. He had the chemicals to make the agents used by AUM and so must have been guilty. No-one questioned the assumptions of the media / others until mch too late. His wife remains in a coma brought on by the stress - 15? years later.

bold - sales often take place without price tags, and with no set price, look at that example about Radiohead. Is that not a sale? I kid you not, this, yours, is the very argument I heard from a guy in the dock for dealing in buying a long while ago. (TV news IIRC) He was denying dealing (a major offence) as no price had been indicateed by a tag / sticker. The money he passed was, in his opinion a donation.

Do I still believe your 'donations' to secure admission to view the said videos (the viewing of which is) being 'sold' by by Info Sumo constitues a sale because without it no viewing would be permitted? Yes I do.

What would you do faced with Japanese, your Japanese in-laws perhaps, confused about all this as they MUST pay 14,000 (approx) to view NHK (and sumo) each year. What would you say to their confusion at someone taking the images they have to pay for, without having paid, and (my words - not fact) potentially looking to make a profit by passing on these images to others.

How would you feel were you forced to pay for something by law, only to see others taking that same thing - without paying - and asking for 'donations' for them to pass it on?

Could you, without blushing tell the Japanese the actions of Info Sumo is not not selling and that their 14,000 is money well spent in enabling Info Sumo the chance to pick up these TV images to then accept donations from?

I am not trying to further this argument with you Mark. As you suggested to me via other channels, we should just stop bickering. But I find it a little unfair to leave these questions unanswered, and some of them I think are interesting topics anyway... whatever is just between you and me, I will leave that out.

Matsumoto incident: Your comparison to someone who is falsely charged with a crime is very strange. I would liken I-S to the victim in your example. I know in Japan there is very little respect given to "innocent until proven guilty" . . . I am not accusing him of something based on reasonable or unreasonable assumptions, which may or may not be true. You are actually accusing him of trying to make a profit without the benefit of examining the financial records. A the very least you feel this scenario is very likely. In contrast I am accepting his reasonable explanation to vet his intentions. I believe his intentions are pure. Through personal correspondence and reviewing the numbers that were volunteered, I see virtually no possibility that he could even break even. And they all seem like highly believable figures.

Donation v. Sale: I think there are two things distinguishing the two. One is intent, difficult to judge, and the other is Logistics.

In terms of intent, I am not being cheeky about lame arguments against sale of illegal materials or service such as drugs or questionable companionship on a "donation-only" basis. Even of there is not a price tag on the bag of pot. The dealer and buyer both know the price by the time the drugs are sold. The dealer will not sell the bag for less than his profit-margins allow. I-S has no bottom price, as of yet. Even if he does in the future, I will still believe his intentions are to come close to breaking even, without any hope of making a profit.

"In Rainbows" was a very good example of my Logistical argument. The CD is a product. It is purchased one time only. It is a guaranteed product, and once you purchase it, you own your copy. Info-Sumo has not guaranteed anything. He has not promised in any way that he will be doing this next basho. Those who have paid/donated are trusting that he will, but it was never promised. There are no terms of sale: we do not know what we will be getting from day to day or basho to basho. If I-S becomes ill and misses 3 days, I don't think I should demand any money back. If his site disappears in September, there should be no call-to-arms. A donation is a donation. That's pretty simple so I do not see why everyone makes it so complex.

This logistical argument aside, in the US, charities often add a bonus product to donations above a certain amount. They even tell you how much you need to donate and exactly what bonus you will be qualified for. Your entire donation is tax-deductible, not minus the cost of the bonus item. Does this mean charities are "selling tote bags?" Not to Mark directly, but if you want to make the assertion that those charities are selling you the bonus item, that is ludicrous. Or in other words, not seeing the forest for the trees.

Yes, I know I-S is not legally a charity or a non-profit organization. But in my mind, and I think in the minds of many others, his service is charitable. He is still not being paid. And in my book, that makes it "not-for-profit." If you don't agree, fine. I hope my side of this is clear now.

Finally, Pirating a Public Service:

* I don't think I-S is taking from the Japanese public. I believe their subscription is different from his own, under different jurisdictions, and provided by a third party or separate financial account of the NHK. Illegal? That would be for a court to decide, or for an individual to decide individually, not for an individual to decide for everyone else and then to repeat dogmatically. If I-S is taking from someone it is his satellite provider, and material from the NHK, but I do not believe he is taking from the Japanese public, so leave my mother-in-law out of this :-P (Shaking head...) Speaking of my mother-in-law, was she pirating NHK by sending me complete recordings of several basho on VHS tapes? What about children's programming for my son? What if I paid for the shipping and the tapes? What if I even bought her a new VCR? Is she she making a "profit?"

* If I-S is in fact taking something from the Japanese public, is it substantial? Is it immoral? Does it warrant outrage? It's not 14,000 yen, as you seem to imply. Indiviual Japanese citizens cannot feel the impact of his "sales." And he's not endangering any market of the NHK. The service is not widespread in its scope, viewership, or advertising. It is being offered to a small group of dedicated and fanatic fans of Ozumo. The service is targeting an unserved demographic, many of whom have repeatedly stated we would purchase a subscription if it was available to us. For my own part, I have made a personal decision for my family that I do not watch American network televison via cable or satellite or whatever else. So the investment for me to watch the basho would be way too high via normal legal channels. Until NHK offers international feeds via internet, I won't be subscribing. When we eventually spend time living in Japan, I will certainly pay the subscription fee.

* Case study #1: NYC subway. A ride is $2. An unlimited daily card can be purchased for $7. Sometimes people buy, steal, or find unlimited ride metrocards and sit around selling entrance to a station for $1. The card resets every 15 minutes, so it is very difficult to make very much money, unless you are also near a bus station and can sell transfers as well. Still the maximum, under extremely excellent conditions would be 8 fares per hour. 3 or 4 is much more likely. Usually this scam is done by homeless, etc. So, it's definitely illegal, sometimes annoying... but when I see it,what should I do? Demand that they stop? Call over a cop or MTA attendant? Both of them will probably just make the guy leave and maybe confiscate the card, though I doubt it. Excess burden to the infrastructure is 0. He is not convincing people with no destination to go get on the train. Cost to the MTA: maybe $40/day? $100 at most. This is an institution that takes in many billions in revenues annually. I am much more concerned when I see a lazy unionized^ work-crew of 15 guys standing around 1 shovel and enough work for 2 guys alone to take care of in 2 hours. Those 15 guys will be there all day and that is why the system is failing, not because Mr. Homeless is selling swipes on the side.

^"unionized" is only to give an idea of payscale. I support unions wholeheartedly, and definitely don't believe all union crews are lazy

*Case study #2: Same as above. Only the MTA vending machine at the station is broken and Mr. Swipes is the only way to get access.... I think you get the picture. Maybe you think I don't need to see the basho the same way I need to visit a sick friend in the hospital, but then you underestimate my fanaticism.

(Bart...)

Edited by kaiguma

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Your host sounds interesting. Could you tell us who it is?

Its Dreamhost. There are all sorts of plans, but I currently pay $7/month, and get 680 GB of space, and 6.79 TB of bandwidth per month. They DON'T do ASP, or MS SQL, unfortunately. It does do quicktime video and realplayer video and audio streaming.

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I believe that Info-Sumo website (only website, not videos) requires MySQL to work (forum). :/

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edited>>>

This logistical argument aside, in the US, charities often add a bonus product to donations above a certain amount. They even tell you how much you need to donate and exactly what bonus you will be qualified for. Your entire donation is tax-deductible, not minus the cost of the bonus item.

Actually, that is generally not true. You are supposed to deduct the cost of received goods and services from the donation. Often, you will see something like "Supporter ($100) all but $38 tax-deductible" on memberships. I don't know the rules about what you need to count in the cost, but the charities do.

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I believe that Info-Sumo website (only website, not videos) requires MySQL to work (forum). :/

MySQL isn't a problem with Dreamhost. MSSQL was the problem as it's from big, bad Microsoft...

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Thanks Doitsuyama for explanation. I made a mistake... (Shaking head...)

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Hate to break up the chipper party, but did anyone see day 5 Asa bout? I think he got robbed.... looked to me like his opponent touched first, not Asa! Good match though!

Jake

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Some videos are on Youtube.... ;-) Quality is OK ! Commentaries are in English or Japanese. Juts type "Nagoya basho 2008" and you'll find them.

I can't afford to pay for these videos so I will watch them on Youtube. I don't like this idea to "sell" (let's say that) the videos, but I understand it is expensive for him to deliver such high-quality videos. This is a big problem.

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edited>>>

This logistical argument aside, in the US, charities often add a bonus product to donations above a certain amount. They even tell you how much you need to donate and exactly what bonus you will be qualified for. Your entire donation is tax-deductible, not minus the cost of the bonus item.

Actually, that is generally not true. You are supposed to deduct the cost of received goods and services from the donation. Often, you will see something like "Supporter ($100) all but $38 tax-deductible" on memberships. I don't know the rules about what you need to count in the cost, but the charities do.

okay, thanks for that correction. ;-) I wondered about it as I typed but I have never run across that sort of thing on any of the charities top which I have donated. Not knowing the ins and outs of it, I guess it suffices to say it would be handled on a case-by-case basis.

I maintain that the extra shove was all in the normal flow of the bout . . . .

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Hate to break up the chipper party, but did anyone see day 5 Asa bout? I think he got robbed.... looked to me like his opponent touched first, not Asa! Good match though!

Jake

there is a threas titled "Did Asa get robbed?" or something like that (Neener, neener...)

check it out in the honbasho subforum. SHould be near the top since it's still active.

cheers. ;-)

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Hate to break up the chipper party, but did anyone see day 5 Asa bout? I think he got robbed.... looked to me like his opponent touched first, not Asa! Good match though!

Jake

You are too late for the party anyway, this has been discussed in detail here. And I think sekihiryu described it best like: "nothing to see here move along, move along." That type of decision to award the win to the attacker as Asashoryu was out of the dohyo already (despite still in the air) is quite the norm.

On the other hand I think you stated that you are pretty new to sumo, right? Isn't it a bit daft then to speak of "robbery" before knowing the sport a bit better?

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Aaaaahhhh, stop with the hating.

;-)

It's a very normal reaction for people new to the sport. I certainly shared this kind of knee-jerk when I first started watching. One of the very appealing features of Sumo is it is always advertised as having these very basic and simple rules (as opposed to say, judo). "If any part of the body besides the bottom of the feet touches the doyho, or if any part of the body touches outside of the ring, you lose."

The subtleties in applying that are pretty hard to grasp and seem unfair to the "uninitated."

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Thanks again Kaiguma. Once again apologies for not seeing a thread elsewhere. I have limited time on the computer, and get lazy looking at all the different ones.

Doitsuyama -

Indeed I am new, and daft, to the world of Sumo (at least the nitty gritty details aspect of it anyways). I thought the idea of a "public forum" was to educate, share, opinion-ate (is that even a word??), etc. no? Forgive me for trying to strike up some lively conversation about a decent match in my very amateur, daft, basic opinion. If you would like to actually be cool and explain the sport a "bit better," in lieu of wasting words talking to me like I was 5.... well then that would be mighty nice of you!

Cheers

Jake

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