Sumo & Ssireum

[JAB 0]

I was wondering if much was written / known on the connection between Sumo and Ssireum (Korean based Folk Wrestling)? Do we have any historical documents stating which came from which? Any historical connection beyond origin? Have their ever been any prominent Rikishi that started in Korean Ssireum?

Some general info here: http://ynucc.yeungnam.ac.kr/~ssi/eindex.html

Anyone else have other sources?

Thanks

Jake :-(

Edited June 12, 2008 by JAB

[JAB 0]

No offerings? Is Ssireum ever played in Japan? How popular is Sumo is Korea?

Thanks,

Jake :-)

[Gusoyama 105]

Kasugao is from Korea, and Tamarikido is of Korean descent. That's about all I can offer.

[JariM 29]

I was wondering if much was written / known on the connection between Sumo and Ssireum (Korean based Folk Wrestling)?

Do we have any historical documents stating which came from which?

Is there a connection? Many forms of wrestling have evolved indendently from eachother. Also while Sumo and Ssireum may look alot like eachother at first glance they are quite a bit different.

Sumo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAhMMacc6e4&

Ssireum:

For example Sumo style slapping is lot allowed in Ssireum.

Edited June 18, 2008 by JariM

[Asojima 2,874]

I was wondering if much was written / known on the connection between Sumo and Ssireum (Korean based Folk Wrestling)?

Do we have any historical documents stating which came from which?

Is there a connection? Many forms of wrestling have evolved indendently from eachother. Also while Sumo and Ssireum may look alot like eachother at first glance they are quite a bit different.

Sumo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAhMMacc6e4&

Ssireum:

For example Sumo style slapping is lot allowd in Ssireum.

If

is, in fact, SSireum, it looks very much like Mongolian wrestling. Edited June 18, 2008 by Asojima

[kaiguma 0]

Kasugao is from Korea, and Tamarikido is of Korean descent. That's about all I can offer.

Ri is also of Korean descent, as was Rikidozan, and maybe others? It is probably safe to say that a japanese-born rikishi of Korean descent probably is not heavily influenced by Ssireum.

Interestingly enough, Kasugao's technique is straight to the belt, all nage and yori: very old school and textbook Sumo with not a hint of Ssireum, except maybe a tendency to stalemate when he's unable to set up a good throw? But many Japanese rikishi do this as well and it is probably a symptom of being out of breath ;-)

But seriously you see virtually no legwork whatsoever in Kasugao's sumo, and in Ssireum the thigh grab seems quite common. That would logically lead to techniques like ashitori and whatever is the kimarite for "thigh-propping twist-down."

:-D one of my favorite English descriptions of a kimarite so I promptly forgot it.

As far as roots go, I feel it is hard to argue that traditional wrestling in Mongolia, Korea, and Japan did not evolve from common roots. Korea was Japan's #1 foreign influence in tools, trade, and simple machinery. They were in constant contact for many periods of Japanese history. In the ports and smaller islands that allowed foreigners, I am sure cultural exchange was going on in the form of wrestling. What else would sailor's do during down-time?

(no offense intended for any ancient sailor-types)

[JAB 0]

Thanks guys, great posts!

I agree their are fundamental differences in both, but I guess I see more similarities than differences.

Why would you say Kasugao's technique is quite different when he is grabbing the belt? Quite similar to Sumo IMO as both focus on the clinch with many belt techniques.

As a follow up to your comment on "old school / textbook Sumo" why so?? Why did such techniques become "old school/"

Thanks

Jake :-)

[Washuyama 662]

Kaneshiro/Tochihikari of Kasugano Beya in the 70s was also of Korean descent...

[kaiguma 0]

Why would you say Kasugao's technique is quite different when he is grabbing the belt? Quite similar to Sumo IMO as both focus on the clinch with many belt techniques.

As a follow up to your comment on "old school / textbook Sumo" why so?? Why did such techniques become "old school/"

Well, Kasugao goes straight for the belt and tries to set up a throw. If it's not happening, or maybe if it's happening even better than planned, he goes for yorikiri. His body type, stance, and grip are all classic, without deviation from "the rule" so that when he's "on" it is truly beautiful to behold. The only rikishi I can think who were just as classic and old school in terms of body and technique are probably Tokitsuumi and Yokozuna Takanohana. Obviously there is a gap there in the level of effectiveness :-)

As opposed to many of the Mongolian rikishi, who are influenced by their native Bokh wrestling style and can often be expected to go for sweeps or leg-grabs, Kasugao is probably well within the range of average frequency that Japanese rikishi perform such maneuvers. (Aderechelsea is probably the reigning expert on this subject btw...)

And judging from the few videos I watched on Youtube, Ssireum throws are often accompanied by a thigh grip, not just a belt grip or upper-body grip. And also leg-blocking and hip-tossing leverage are sometimes employed, as in Judo or Mongolian Bokh. Since there is an actual belt to grab in Ssireum, I see it as a kind of perfect middle ground between Bokh and Sumo.

When you specifically ask what is the big difference between the two as in: both focus on the clinch, belt techniques etc.? I would say, I see Sumo as deriving its momentum from power and then redirecting that power with leverage if necessary. Therefore, when dealing with the belt, a throw is inferior to Yori since Yori is pure power sumo with no torsion leverage applied. Hence our popular phrase of "forward-moving sumo." In Ssireum I think I am seeing an emphasis on leverage and balance that leads to a critical moment when power must be applied to down the opponent. The resulting flow is not meant to have the straight-forward ideal of Sumo, and the energy generated is a constant tension between tangentially opposed bodies. Sumo embodies more of a compressive force.

But that's all just highly opinionated observation. (Yawning...)

[JAB 0]

Kaiguma,

You rock sir! (In a state of confusion...) Can you elaborate more on "Compressive force"?

I agree with your observations on Sumo redirecting force and the Tachiai being of more focus, and it certainly changes the sport signifigantly since Ssireum ties up and works a bit more Greco-ish.

You mention Aderechelsea is the one to talk to.... is that someone on this board? I would love to hear more on the subject.

Also do you have any references, sites, or other info on Bohk wrestling?

Thanks a million!

Jake (A fearful rikishi...)

[kaiguma 0]

Can you elaborate more on "Compressive force"?

By compressive force I just mean that the ideal is "full steam ahead" between two bodies, so that is strictly compression. The perfect examples are overwhelming tachi-ai (Dejima), Tsukiotoshi (Asashoryu), gaburi-yori (Kotoshogiku), and often ai-yotsu (both opponents favor same-handed outside/inside grips and lock into symmetrical positioning).

In any of these cases, redirection of the force is possible but it is generally not the ideal. And if one is dominating an opponent with one of these techniques, redirection certainly should not be the goal. Many exceptions to this rule, such as the better part of the end of Chiyotaikai's career. :'-(

In Ssireum and Bohk, once the lock-up happens I really get the sense that they are pulling and pushing the opponent with equal measure to set up an incredible tension. I imagine this gives a very interesting sensation of both your own and your opponent's bodily presences and centers of gravity. It seems obvious that they are reading this tension for the perfect moment to shift and twist the opponent to the ground, or otherwise cause imbalance to their advantage. While this happens in some Sumo lock-ups, more often than not you see the opponents burying their heads into one another's chests to take advantage of bottom-top leverage, for pushing only. It is mainly only someone on the defensive who will resort to redirection. Obvious counter-examples: Aminishiki, Toyonoshima, Hakurozan. I cringe to list him with the other two (Singing drunk...) Even the greco lock-up at the head and shoulders (seen in bouts with Roho, Kokkai, or Homasho) tends toward the compressive.

[kaiguma 0]

I thought about this some more...

I recognize that even if re-direction is not the ideal in Ozumo it is still fairly common. But I would posit that it still usually derives from compression or creating a sudden vacuum in the place of compressive force. The pull of a hatakikomi is not really an act of tension, because it usually has been set up by a strong push. Hikiotoshi also applies a lot of downward force. Ultra-henka (not being there) usually doesn't rely on tension, but rather on the knowledge that your opponent means to compress against you. Inashi is often achieved from strong ottsuke, and it doesn't get more locally compressed than that. Throws are usually forced out of compressed stances, so what you have is often compression into a fulcrum point which isolates the body-weight of the opponent to set up the throw.

Twist-downs are probably an exception to the theory, some of the leg-throws and maneuvers that utilize pulling across the body, so maybe even some kotonage? certainly most tottari and the like... and to clarify what I see as "tension" in the counterparts: I described the momentum as being neutralized by pulling and pushing in equal measure, so that tension is not an opposite to the forward motion of Ozumo, but the incident of action on the compression. In simpler terms, the tension I am describing is not a pulling tension between two bodies (as in deflection or stretching elastically) but the application of a sheer force between two bodies in isolation. Hope the structural analogy is not lost there. :)