Knifeman rampage in Tokyo

[Itachi 390]

Reading this thread got me thinking about the subject of crime and punishment. I made some notes and I thought I would share them with you.

Problem: Subject commits heinous crime - society desires appropriate treatment for offender.

Constraints: - subject is not be be allowed freedom (public safety concerns)

- subject is not to be supported by the state (public does not wish subject to benefit from free food and lodging as a result of their crimes)

- subject is not to be gratuitously punished (torture or even execution to gratify society's desire for retribution is morally inconsistent with the idea that such violations as the subject has committed are wrong)

Options:

- to release? Unacceptable, society must be protected.

- to rehabilitate? In extreme cases such as are under consideration here, this may not be feasible.

- to torture? Not consistent with proposition that such treatment of a person is unacceptable to society.

- to execute? Complicated. See above for argument against. May be more humane than abandonment to natural death however.

- to incarcerate indefinitely? Violates constraints if state must support subject but may be acceptable if subject can support themselves.

Proposition: Incarcerate indefinitely with subject responsible for supporting themselves, to perish from lack of support if they fail to do so. Then the question becomes: Whether or not to provide compassionate execution when death by neglect is the inevitable outcome.

Problems: By what means will the subject be permitted to support themselves? Free interaction with society is not acceptable so options are limited.

Constraint on subject self-support mechanism:

- Subject is not to compete unfairly with free citizens. It would be distasteful for free workers to suffer economic hardship through competition in labour markets with incarcerated subjects.

Proposition: Otherwise uneconomic public works projects.

This proposition may draw comparisons with distasteful arrangements from history such as the Soviet Gulags but I believe it would be possible to plan for public works projects to be undertaken where uneconomic components of the labour could be made economic by opening the competition to perpetually incarcerated persons in such a way that they would not negatively affect the prospects of free workers. Care would need to be taken so that the public would not be at risk from negligent uninspired performance of the tasks on the part of the incarcerated subjects.

Under this proposition, death by starvation would be the result for subjects that fail to support themsleves through the opportunities available to them.

It may be morally acceptable to provide an execution option on compassionate grounds for subjects that are unsuccessful in supporting themselves under this system.

I offer this as a presentation of my brainstorming for the evening. I may well awake tomorrow disagreeing with myself on these points but this may be useful for discussion purposes.

[Jakusotsu 5,806]

A couple of centuries ago, there was quite an elegant option to solve all these problems: deport the culprit to far away colonies (e.g. Australia). Meanwhile, the world has become too small for that.

[Mark Buckton 1]

Now, I don't know anything about the delineations between these different types of crime. what, for example, is the distinguishing feature between violent crime and heinous crime? Is it, as I suspect, loss of life (meaning heinous involves murder, while violent is assault and rape)? What counts as intellectual crime in this case? Are they really talking about hacking and copyright infringment or is it more the idea of scamming and confidence tricksters?

Forget about the delineations - what I am really missing are absolute numbers. Sure, Akihabara has more thefts and less of the other types. But only in relative numbers, absolute numbers of violent crimes might well be much higher than in the other wards - impossible to see from this "stat chart".

That pie chart is from the Manseibashi police box in Akihabara.

http://www.keishicho.metro.tokyo.jp/1/manseibashi/index.htm

I looked and couldn't find any numbers, but one should take into account the lack of night life in the Chiyoda ward. Not many shot bars or sex workers compared to other towns. But some gambling.

Compare that with Shinjuku, Ikebukuro, Shibuya, and Roppongi.

On my train line, I bet Adachi-ku and even Matsudo are more dangerous than Chiyoda.

Oh, and Chiyoda-ku has very few actual residents. Not many people there after dark, just empty offices.

underlined - yeah - but without the proof of what you have claimed earlier in the thread - .................. empty bet.

Seven or eight years ago, I was working on an advisory team prepping a 5 year 'plan' and a 10 year 'plan' for one of Tokyo's three largest wards - in terms of population and landsize.

At the time, we were made aware of crime figures (and types) in each of the 23 wards of the city.

The large ward (I was advising) in question was at or near the top of the pile in number of crimes committed. Places like Chuo / Chiyoda were near the bottom. Fair and dandy most thought, and it reinforced stereotypes - until I looked at it from a per person perspective - and found those wards with smaller populations were actually more 'dangerous' crime wise than the larger wards. Per person, more crimes were committed per person in smaller wards.

Of course this can be argued from both the per person / total crimes sides but by and large, IIRC - and on this I am pretty sure I do - the smaller the population, the more crimes per person.

These numbers weren't public at the time I think, but I did see these figures later in the public Koho papers - but again, that would be five years ago now. I have no direct links myself sadly.

[That-Satsu-Guy 1]

I have no direct links myself sadly.

No actual numbers from you either, and I thought you were a journalist...

It's funny though, last time I backed up my comment on Yasukuni with a link, you said you wanted an opinion and that just stating facts lacked "balls."

This time, I gave you my opinion, based on my personal experience, and you want proof.

Well, I gave you a link, that's the best I'm gonna do.

Oh, don't worry folks, this isn't a flame war because I'm done with this topic.

[Mark Buckton 1]

I have no direct links myself sadly.

No actual numbers from you either, and I thought you were a journalist...

It's funny though, last time I backed up my comment on Yasukuni with a link, you said you wanted an opinion and that just stating facts lacked "balls."

This time, I gave you my opinion, based on my personal experience, and you want proof.

Well, I gave you a link, that's the best I'm gonna do.

Oh, don't worry folks, this isn't a flame war because I'm done with this topic.

I guess we'll have to call that Chiban reality? (Sign of approval...)

On Yasukuni, IIRC you made the place out to be so bad and linked to the opinions of another - without your own opinion on a given controversial subject. I think I said it takes 'a certain part of the anatomy' to give that opinion on such an issue but you were passing it off as bad to a person unaware, by linking to other opinions........ nothing from yourself really on why it was / is bad.

On Tokyo crime - I refer to a job I did for local government some years ago that brought me into contact with such information / figures at the time. You refer to simply 'working in the ward (twice a week?)' - as do hundreds of thousands of others - hardly the same of course. That would be like me, having to go to my Omotesando office today, (in the rain!!!) claiming to know the crime rate for Minami Aoyama / Minato-ku simply because I work there twice a week!!, coming home, logging on, and then saying how safe it is because I myself work there. Along the way, negating the comments of another person who works there - for local govt - in an area related to crime numbers.

Send me an email if you want to contact the local govt people to confirm what I have said is true in this particular ward? Evidence enough?

The 'journalist' claim BTW - working in and with several Japanese newspapers / magazines is unconnected to having figures / facts on every subject under the sun readily available. You know my main area is sumo / J history / J culture, but why would this enable me to access the crime figures for Chiyoda-ku you yourself claim to be true - but cannot find? Of course, I could ask people I know who would be connected to point me in the right direction, but, I would feel a tad 'hazakashi' doing so were I to ask for figures I already know not to be true.

The onus is on yourself TG but again, when making a claim, bogus claim IMHO, you've walked away when asked to back that up. Be that 'back-up' an opinion or numbers - you offer neither - again.

Edited June 11, 2008 by Mark Buckton

[Sasanishiki 57]

Forget about the delineations - what I am really missing are absolute numbers. Sure, Akihabara has more thefts and less of the other types. But only in relative numbers, absolute numbers of violent crimes might well be much higher than in the other wards - impossible to see from this "stat chart".

I too felt the lack of numbers but in the void I thought I'd help those who had no idea what the pie charts actually meant. In the process of doing that I am still left wondering how these crimes are delineated and what constitutes what kind of crime. Anyone? Also, given that this subject was started on teh basis of a violent crime/murder, knowing what category it would be put into (by knowing the nature of the delineations) would be interesting (at least fro me).

[Mark Buckton 1]

A couple of centuries ago, there was quite an elegant option to solve all these problems: deport the culprit to far away colonies (e.g. Australia).

Well deportation to Australia was used more for political means than justice ones. It was a handy way for the British government to remove anyone from Ireland who was an annoyance or agitating for rights and / or home rule.

why 'more for' if, at the time (and as wrong as it may have been given modern views) those causing what authorities then deemed trouble were actually part of the UK (that included Ireland)? British subjects breaking British law じゃない?

If a law was broken and deportation was the penalty, does it matter for what reason the law was broken?

Of course, if the penalty were introduced only to combat political dissent at the time, that would be 'for political reasons' IMHO - and unfair. Hard to say now unless we know when laws were introduced and what for.

Are there any numbers differentiating deportations from Ireland / the mainland? I honestly have never seen any.　Would be interesting though.

[Mark Buckton 1]

I have no direct links myself sadly.

No actual numbers from you either, and I thought you were a journalist...

It's funny though, last time I backed up my comment on Yasukuni with a link, you said you wanted an opinion and that just stating facts lacked "balls."

This time, I gave you my opinion, based on my personal experience, and you want proof.

Off topic I know but TSG knows this is only a bit of fun - think he's dealing with a cut to the bone or something so might be busy anyway - reading a book today on the train as I made my way through Akihabara, past the crims, hookers, and Chibans on their way home to greener pastures (I am not worthy...) , I came across this beauty -

Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative

Oh to be comparable to this man! Anyone know the speaker / writer without looking it up?

3 more from the same man to give you a hint at the personality if not the person.

America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between

If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much.

Edited June 13, 2008 by Mark Buckton

[Itachi 390]

I have no direct links myself sadly.

Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative

Oh to be comparable to this man! Anyone know the speaker / writer without looking it up?

3 more from the same man to give you a hint at the personality if not the person.

America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between

If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much.

Here's a wild guess. Could it be Kurt Vonnegut?

[Mark Buckton 1]

Here's a wild guess. Could it be Kurt Vonnegut?

nope - not KV - who is that anyway?

[Manekineko 200]

Mark Twain?

And as for Kurt Vonnegut - some really good books. And ice nine, that one will stick with me for ages. (Annoyed...)

Edit: Never mind, looked it up now and am kicking myself for not recognizing the real man.

Edited June 13, 2008 by Manekineko

[That-Satsu-Guy 1]

Hey, Mark!

Found better numbers.

Tokyo crime map

http://www.keishicho.metro.tokyo.jp/toukei...shi/yokushi.htm

Chiyoda-ku

http://www.keishicho.metro.tokyo.jp/toukei...oku_ks.htm?ah17

Break down of Chiyoda crime PDF

http://www.city.chiyoda.tokyo.jp/service/pdf/d0000385_9.pdf

Adachi and Matsudo

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~dv8t-isz/hanzai_westchb_sum.html

BTW, that Yasukuni article wasn't an opinion piece, it was news.

Edited June 14, 2008 by That-Satsu-Guy

[Fujisan 530]

If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

I have a similar philosophy-

I always speak my mind but sometimes I do it very politely.

[Fujisan 530]

How long does it take the death sentence to be fulfilled in Japan? In the US, it is a rather high number, like 10 years or so.

It seems another multiple killers execution has been rushed through in the aftermath of the knife attack...At least if the rumours are to be believed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsutomu_Miyazaki

Edited June 19, 2008 by Fujisan

[Jonosuke 28]

How long does it take the death sentence to be fulfilled in Japan? In the US, it is a rather high number, like 10 years or so.

It seems another multiple killers execution has been rushed through in the aftermath of the knife attack...At least if the rumours are to be believed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsutomu_Miyazaki

I don't characterize his execution as rushed through as he was sentenced to death over 10 years ago.

[Guest Takamichinoku]

I herd what happen I was thier no physically but in a mental state,

I had feeling something was going to happen.

You know when you can forsee something before it happen's

He lucky i wasn't thier i would have been a hero that day, I would have beat him

in sent him to police for attacking innocent people....... I use to be in Marital Art's :-) he would think 10 times before doing it again.

I (Yawning...) him up something furse

I dont like to see thing's that are done to other people.

I pray that everyone is doing well today.

Im doing find.

無知な人々にうんざりイムので他の活用状況についてうそをつく私の採掘が吹く........... dontあなたは間違っている場合にうそをつくとね。 espeicallyは人々が、怒る原因して手伝ってあげましょうアウトしようとしてでもまあ、ここイムまだ受賞

[Mark Buckton 1]

How long does it take the death sentence to be fulfilled in Japan? In the US, it is a rather high number, like 10 years or so.

It seems another multiple killers execution has been rushed through in the aftermath of the knife attack...At least if the rumours are to be believed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsutomu_Miyazaki

I don't characterize his execution as rushed through as he was sentenced to death over 10 years ago.

with Jonosuke here completely although speaking to lawyers last week, they do refer to the fact that thelast appeal was exhausted just 2 years ago or so. But then again, the law also says that you must then be executed within 6 months.......

[Mark Buckton 1]

I don't have the same depth of knowledge about English history as Irish so I can't comment on deportations from England. However as most Irish were deported for involvement in land reform and home rule I think it's unlikely that the percentage numbers would be the same as the latter certainly and the former (most likely) were not issues at the time in England.

saving space by del;eting - not reducing significance of the issue. Very good info on Wild Geese site ((IIRC) put together by an Irish scholar - on numbers of those deported- surprisingly low considering total (from Ireland) pre-1801.