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Bealzbob

Early Nagoya banzuke discussion

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By the looks of it, some things are up for discussion as usual.

Who gets Asasekiryu's komusubi slot? Toyonoshima's 11-4 from M5 ? Or Aminishiki's 10-5 from M4 ? Considering what happened in Haru of this year with Takekaze I'll go with Toyonoshima for K1w.

Will Chiyohakuho get into makuuchi with a 13-2 from J11 ? It's touch and go. The 3 previous times someone has gotten 13 wins from J11, only once has that person made makuuchi, although that time was the most recent time (Ichihara) here.

I see 4 slots available in makuuchi in Kasugao, Hakurozan, Kotokasuga & Hakuba. For me that's Kimurayama, Koryu, Masatsukasa & one of either Chiyohakuho or Tamawashi's 8-7 from J2e.

Daiyubu's final day loss opens up a 3rd slot in juryo which hopefully Yamamotoyama will take alongside the Gorilla & Aran.

Kotooshu's yokozuna run is on (Sign of approval...)

Edited by Bealzbob

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I say Aminishiki for komusubi, and Chiyohakuho over Tamawashi.

Kotooshu is officially in the process, whether he gets it or not is another question.

Also, what about Tamaasuka? Doesn't he have a shot over Yamamotoyama?

Edited by That-Satsu-Guy

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Sadly you're both probably right re- Tamaasuka. The big man might have to wait longer...

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I say both Aminishiki and Toyonoshima deserve to be komusubi after their performances. I think they should promote Kisenosato to sekiwake to make way for them: he deserves it after a 10-5 and now 7 tournaments at komusubi.

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For makuuchi, I agree it's touch and go but I reckon Tamawashi might get the nod over Chiyohakuho.

For juryo, Tamaasuka is a shoo-in as he zensho yushoed at Makushita 12 so looks like Yamamotoyama will miss out.

Edited by ryafuji

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I say both Aminishiki and Toyonoshima deserve to be komusubi after their performances. I think they should promote Kisenosato to sekiwake to make way for them: he deserves it after a 10-5 and now 7 tournaments at komusubi.

Of which 5 have been kachikoshi. To me he deserves the promotion but in the two similar cases in the 2000s (Kotomitsuki in 2004 and Ama in 2007) the 10-5 komusubi was not promoted when both sekiwake slots were already filled (and now possibly having 4+2 ozeki and yokozuna also will lead the banzuke makers to prefer to keep just two sekiwake and two komusubi, so that there are exactly 10 rikishi in the top ranks?). The two cases mentioned are rikishi who had already been sekiwake before and possibly Kisenosato's many basho at komusubi without ever being sekiwake could play a part?

Anyway, you are welcome to vote in (and if you want comment on) this poll.

Edited by Azumaryu

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Aminishiki over Toyonoshima.

Tamawashi and Tamaasuka.

As for Kotooshu, he needs to have a Zensho basho. AFter all this was his kadoban basho. Even 14-1 yusho can be dicey. They don't have to promote him for winning two consecutive. There is a shimpan who didn't get it and he is now an influential member who could ask to convene the specialy meeting of YDC. Without it, there is not even the discussion at YDC.

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As for Kotooshu, he needs to have a Zensho basho. AFter all this was his kadoban basho. Even 14-1 yusho can be dicey. They don't have to promote him for winning two consecutive. There is a shimpan who didn't get it ...

Clarification, please?

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As for Kotooshu, he needs to have a Zensho basho. AFter all this was his kadoban basho. Even 14-1 yusho can be dicey. They don't have to promote him for winning two consecutive. There is a shimpan who didn't get it ...

Clarification, please?

I think he is talking of Takanohana. No consecutive yusho actually, but very strong runs. I still think Kotooshu will be yokozuna with another yusho, even if "only" 13-2 (mind you that was totally the norm before Asashoryu, just look at Musashimaru). I agree that his make-koshi is a strong argument against it, but I only believe it when I see it.

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As for Kotooshu, he needs to have a Zensho basho. AFter all this was his kadoban basho. Even 14-1 yusho can be dicey. They don't have to promote him for winning two consecutive. There is a shimpan who didn't get it ...

Clarification, please?

I think he is talking of Takanohana. No consecutive yusho actually, but very strong runs. I still think Kotooshu will be yokozuna with another yusho, even if "only" 13-2 (mind you that was totally the norm before Asashoryu, just look at Musashimaru). I agree that his make-koshi is a strong argument against it, but I only believe it when I see it.

I agree with that. You have to go back to Chiyonoyama (Haru 1950) to find an ozeki who wasn't promoted right after two straight yusho (13 + 12 wins). In his case, it was his first two ozeki basho and there were already three pitifully performing yokozuna. I guess they didn't want to take a chance on promoting a newbie and getting another one. Interesting, he was promoted the following year after wins of 11, 8 and 14(Y) = 33 wins. They could treat Kotooshu as a 'newbie' because he came off kadoban - but I doubt it. It's a lot different now.

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door/age, oh and an 8-7 from M2 (Shaking head...) Anything other than an M1 and I'll be amazed.

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As for Kotooshu, he needs to have a Zensho basho. AFter all this was his kadoban basho. Even 14-1 yusho can be dicey. They don't have to promote him for winning two consecutive. There is a shimpan who didn't get it ...

Clarification, please?

I think he is talking of Takanohana. No consecutive yusho actually, but very strong runs. I still think Kotooshu will be yokozuna with another yusho, even if "only" 13-2 (mind you that was totally the norm before Asashoryu, just look at Musashimaru). I agree that his make-koshi is a strong argument against it, but I only believe it when I see it.

I agree with that. You have to go back to Chiyonoyama (Haru 1950) to find an ozeki who wasn't promoted right after two straight yusho (13 + 12 wins). In his case, it was his first two ozeki basho and there were already three pitifully performing yokozuna. I guess they didn't want to take a chance on promoting a newbie and getting another one. Interesting, he was promoted the following year after wins of 11, 8 and 14(Y) = 33 wins. They could treat Kotooshu as a 'newbie' because he came off kadoban - but I doubt it. It's a lot different now.

Adding to the mix the "foreigner thing" - will they promote Kotooshu to Yokozuna, even if he meets the previously used criteria, if that would give them 3 Yokozuna, all of them foreigners? (not to mention the new guy being perceived as "weak" in comparison to the other two) Would they come up with some new reason to keep him out?

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Will former "golden boy" Sakaizawa, 3-12 from E-J9, be spending the 1st anniversary of his promotion to Juryo by making a return trip to Makushita?

In 7 tournaments in Jonokuchi, Jonidan, Sandanme, and Makushita, he was 43-6, winning 2 basho and in the tie-breaker for a 3rd. In 6 tournaments since making it to Juryo he's 42-39-9, winning 1 Juryo basho, and withdrawing with injury twice.

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Hmm, having trouble placing Kakizoe in my GTB guess. Also, my M3w thru M7w all seem to have benefitted slightly from banzuke luck. Just how the results have fallen.

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An attempt at guessing the full makushita banzuke...let's see how much of a debacle this will turn out to be:

Daiyubu

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Just took another look at makuuchi and wow, I'm sure having trouble from M6w downwards. Tough to decide whether to overpromote Homasho, Roho and Dejima (which gives me some fun discontinuities, e.g. Homasho 9-6 M11w -> M6w, Tamakasuga 9-6 M13w -> M11e) or to underdemote (some or all of) Kakuryu, Kyokutenho and Kokkai instead...

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Just took another look at makuuchi and wow, I'm sure having trouble from M6w downwards. Tough to decide whether to overpromote Homasho, Roho and Dejima (which gives me some fun discontinuities, e.g. Homasho 9-6 M11w -> M6w, Tamakasuga 9-6 M13w -> M11e) or to underdemote (some or all of) Kakuryu, Kyokutenho and Kokkai instead...

I guess underdemoting is less troublesome.

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Asashosakari. I found that a lot of my mid-Maegashira rikishi were over-promoted by a rank, yet there was no under-promotion to off-set it against. Just the way the results fell I s'pose. There was no natural M4 candidate(s) either (in that the simple +- of records didn't sit anyone @ M4 without some manipulation).

I got there in the end though (I dunno...)

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