Asa's sumo - worthy of a Y?

[HenryK 38]

What a dull, linear, forward-moving oshidashi over "two-ton" Miyabiyama today. No work on the mawazi. No particularly noteworthy wrestling technique. No nothing. Just walked the other guy out of the ring with superior speed and power.

As any real ozumo fan knows, Yokozuna is supposed to be about more. About so much more. Get it? It is about more; so much, much more.

More, dammit, in case you haven't understood.

This is another nail in the coffin. Asashoryu should be asked to resign if he continues to fight like this. Also if he continues to fight any other style. In any case, it just shows, over and over again, that he isn't about more. What additional evidence does one need, really.

P.S.: sarcasm

Edited May 15, 2008 by HenryK

[Mark Buckton 1]

thank you for your post Henry. Interesting to read and based on so much experience. Thanks again.

[Fay 1,677]

thank you for your post Henry. Interesting to read and based on so much experience. Thanks again.

I'm sure you would do some of us a favour with a bit less arrogance.

[Mark Buckton 1]

thank you for your post Henry. Interesting to read and based on so much experience. Thanks again.

I'm sure you would do some of us a favour with a bit less arrogance.

guess that was a result of me using Kakuryu and 'henka in the same phrase? :-) will I not learn!

[Fay 1,677]

thank you for your post Henry. Interesting to read and based on so much experience. Thanks again.

I'm sure you would do some of us a favour with a bit less arrogance.

guess that was a result of me using Kakuryu and 'henka in the same phrase? :-) will I not learn!

Not at all, sure it was a henka try of Kaku. I don't care what you say or think about him or other rikishi, it simply is the result of your postings in the last weeks.

[Mark Buckton 1]

thank you for your post Henry. Interesting to read and based on so much experience. Thanks again.

I'm sure you would do some of us a favour with a bit less arrogance.

guess that was a result of me using Kakuryu and 'henka in the same phrase? :-) will I not learn!

Not at all, sure it was a henka try of Kaku. I don't care what you say or think about him or other rikishi, it simply is the result of your postings in the last weeks.

なるほど　－　 please offer a few examples. 　

[Jakusotsu 6,401]

What a dull, linear, forward-moving oshidashi over "two-ton" Miyabiyama today. No work on the mawazi. No particularly noteworthy wrestling technique. No nothing. Just walked the other guy out of the ring with superior speed and power.

I know what You wanted to say of course, but for the record: Asa's rapid forward movement was mainly due to an ill-advised pulling attempt from Miyabiyama.

[HenryK 38]

thank you for your post Henry. Interesting to read and based on so much experience. Thanks again.

I need to compensate for your common sense and sound judgement, after all.

Edited May 15, 2008 by HenryK

[HenryK 38]

What a dull, linear, forward-moving oshidashi over "two-ton" Miyabiyama today. No work on the mawazi. No particularly noteworthy wrestling technique. No nothing. Just walked the other guy out of the ring with superior speed and power.

I know what You wanted to say of course, but for the record: Asa's rapid forward movement was mainly due to an ill-advised pulling attempt from Miyabiyama.

True, Yama tried a hatakikomi that ended on his chest.

[ilovesumo 12]

なるほど　－　 please offer a few examples. 　

I know it feels 'cool' to be able to read / write some hiragana / katakana and kanji etc but peppering so many of your posts with words / comments / kanji that the vast majority here likely cannot read too easily (and that doesn't even take into account the many many non-members who read SF) might leave them more confused than impressed. そう思わない？

そう思いませんか... (Shaking head...)

[Mark Buckton 1]

(Shaking head...)

well done V. That must have been with you for quite some time. すごいじゃん(Laughing...)

[HenryK 38]

Dammed, six days in a row of forward moving, linear, strong sumo. As if Asashoryu had forgotten about all the other stuff.

But Y are about more - aren't they? About so much, much more.

Obviously absolutely unworthy. Someone should tell Ms. Uchidate.

[Edit: six days instead of five]

[Edit: five days instead of four]

Edited May 20, 2008 by HenryK

[Bataa 0]

Some very interesting comments.

I guess Asa doesn't always perform forward moving sumo is because he never likes to rush and make hasty decisions which would result in him losing the superior position or give his opponent an advantage or grip from the mawashi.He needs to remain calm and focused instead of rushing to display forward moving linear sumo.From many of the quotes i read from the Rikishi quotes section he almost always says stuff like i didn't rush and such.His sumo is very similar to mongolian wrestling where no one rushes to win,instead wait and anticipate his oponents moves and when the time is right execute quick an effective 'kimarite' to pin his opponent to the ground.Which is why i think, one of the reasons it takes 4 to 5 hours for some bouts.I remember Hakuho lost quite a few key bouts against Asa by moving all forward and rushing to which Asa responded quite nicely with a counter throw(pardon my punitive knowledge of sumo kimarite names).I'm not sure whats the general expectations of sumo style worthy of a Yokozuna,but i can imagine where this Yokuzunas should win by moving forward comes from.Moving forward win implies a decisive win which ofcourse is what a yokozuna should display however Asa is different, his style is more defensive and anticipating, with quick counter reaction,(This should not be confused with henka sumo which obviously is not yokozuna worthy)that gives him the edge.So if that is his style then be it cuz it brings him wins and winnings are what makes a yokozuna as someone above mentioned.Lastly,good defence is the best offence.

[Murakami 0]

Came to me just a minute ago when watching a re-run of today's Asa bout, yesterday's bout and shonichi's too.

When did he last win a few, back to back, in forward moving, linear, strong and impressive style from the get-go?

Not senshuraku, nothing in Osaka stands out in terms of memory.

So much seems to be while backpedalling of late. Moving to the side (no, not henka) and just by way of superior kimarite usage.

But Y are about more - aren't they?

Anyone answer without watching vids / looking at records

Hey, anyone can dislike anybody. But not in cold blood. I don't mean to be rude but somebody's got to say it. A sleazy a$$ topic.

[Mark Buckton 1]

as I was saying............... (In jonokuchi...) (Clapping wildly...)

[HenryK 38]

as I was saying............... (Neener, neener...) (Sign of approval...)

Preditable as a swiss cuckoo clock. (Sigh...)

[Jonosuke 28]

I believe both yokozuna's injury had something to do with their showing. Hakuho didn't look as if he could really step hard on his left foot while Asashoryu appeared to be covering his lower back. So it should be pretty interesting when they face each other.

Basically both yokozuna's performance will be discussed at YDC meeting and the usual suspects will speak up to tell appropriate cautionary tales for them to do better the next basho by working hard after healing their wounds.

For whatever reason I am pleased to see Kotooshu wins a yusho for the first time. It's good for Matsudo and the old Sadogataeke must be pleased.

[Fukurou 534]

Basically both yokozuna's performance will be discussed at YDC meeting and the usual suspects will speak up to tell appropriate cautionary tales for them to do better the next basho by working hard after healing their wounds.

I predict Mrs. Uchidate will absolutely crucify Asa for his "poor showing," while at the same time make all sorts of excuses for the same "poor showing" from Hakuho.

For whatever reason I am pleased to see Kotooshu wins a yusho for the first time. It's good for Matsudo and the old Sadogataeke must be pleased.

It'll be interesting to see if he can keep this up in July.

[ryafuji 825]

Well Asa really showed Kotomitsuki who was boss today. A Chiyonofujiesque hand-on-the-back-of-the-neck uwatenage. Great performance I thought.

[Hashira 0]

It'll be interesting to see if he can keep this up in July.

That line is equally appropriate with regards to Mark, as well

[Mark Buckton 1]

It'll be interesting to see if he can keep this up in July.

That line is equally appropriate with regards to Mark, as well

(Being thrown tomatoes at...) thanks Ed. (Neener, neener...) but the fact remains, Asa made a bed, chose to occupy it, and his place is being taken by younger men now. As a fan of anyone on the downside, I know it is hard to see people fade, but in the end all do.

Asa has won how many basho in the last 18 months? Yes 2 absences were forced - but forced by his own lack of judgement - no other rikishi deserves penalising for Asa's absence.

Consider the fact that Asa has a very poor overall record when competing against other yokozuna that actually finished a basho. Of his 22, how many have come against another 'basho finishing' yokozuna? Compare that to how many basho he has been in since his first ozeki basho (yet removing those in which he was lone Y - and center of attention) and with other yokozuna finishing, and the success (yusho) numbers are alarmingly low.

This does not refer to his sumo, but to the mental game of him not being the center of attention he so needs to be - that his fans so need him to be.

[HenryK 38]

Consider the fact that Asa has a very poor overall record when competing against other yokozuna that actually finished a basho.

(Being thrown tomatoes at...) (Neener, neener...)

If at least your tiring diatribes would come with a hint of coherent thought.

Asahoryu's record as a Yokozuna against other Yokozuna is 2-1 (and after tomorrow either 2-2 or 3-1) -- all bouts against Hakuho (Musashimaru didn't finish a basho while both held the title). Asashoryu wasn't able to accumulate a "better" record against other Yokozuna for the simple reason that between 2003 and 2007 he was so dominant that noone else could be promoted Yokozuna. To the dismay of the NSK and many fans.

As regards Asashoryus Ozeki rivals, as a Yokozuna he is

20-5 against Chiyotaikai,

5-4 against Hakuho (at both O and Y),

15-7 against Kaio,

2-1 against Kotomitsuki,

8-2 against Kotooshu,

5-0 against Musoyama, and

11-6 against Tochiazuma.

Makes a combined record of 66-25. Wow.

Can't we just be happy that, at long last, we have two strong Yokozuna and now also a strong Ozeki who can win bashos? That, as a consequence, Ozumo is as thrilling and unpredictable as it hasn't been since the Taka-Waka-Bono-Maru period? What is all this cheap Schadenfreude good for?

[_the_mind_ 0]

Of his 22, how many have come against another 'basho finishing' yokozuna? Compare that to how many basho he has been in since his first ozeki basho (yet removing those in which he was lone Y - and center of attention) and with other yokozuna finishing, and the success (yusho) numbers are alarmingly low.

when you dominate to the point that you allow no other promotions to yokozuna, its not going to be a very big % against other yokozuna's is it? how many basho are you throwing away by quantifing your stat into a "vs other yokozuna" stat? convenient that you overlook WHY there were no other yokozunas for him to fight. ...please do try to imply that 6 years ago the ozeki's were as bad as they are now.

he came in 2002 and passed established ozeki, and didnt allow them promotion. do tell how this extremely obscure statistic you have come up with means anything? its the same as a baseball player saying they lead the league in 9th inning doubles in the month of july when the bases were loaded with 2 outs on a full count. sounds like a Nostradamus pulling of numbers, find an obscure enough stat and it will make your point, i recall you saying that in another thread today.

since you want to throw out his 22 yusho, i suppose that means you arent just limiting your stance on his sumo into a problem you have with his "current performence". as such, you are REALLY reaching to try and suggest Asa shouldnt be a yokozuna and its ridiculous at best. ...again i will remind you of his winning streak which included TWO zensho in a row. i invite you to name another rikishi in the modern age who had two consecutive zensho that didnt deserve to be a yokozuna.....you are now trying to imply he shouldnt be one at all, which is ridiculous from someone who has a job writing about sumo. sounds like you have personal issues here that arent related to sumo but more so you just dislike him period. i would expect a "journalist" to be unbiased, but i guess that is obviously not your M.O.

(Mark Buckton @ May 23, 2008, 09:26)

as I was saying...............

its rather funny that you are all johnny-come-lately about not liking his sumo AND trying to discredit his previous accomplishments. where was this complaining 2 years ago? 3 years ago? 4 years ago? 5 years ago? no you wait until he is injured and at an age where he could fall off rather quickly and act like you had this super secret inside knowledge that no one else had this whole time while using his injured preformences to back your stance. trying to discredit a fighter who nearly has an 80% win rate for his CAREER and DOES have an 80% win rate in makauuchi for his career with over 600 fights. weak at best sir. im sure your rebuttle is that the banzuke was weak when he came up. convenient excuse also.

[_the_mind_ 0]

Consider the fact that Asa has a very poor overall record when competing against other yokozuna that actually finished a basho.

(Being thrown tomatoes at...) (Neener, neener...)

Asahoryu's record as a Yokozuna against other Yokozuna is 2-1 (and after tomorrow either 2-2 or 3-1)

well there you have it, marks argument that Asa is so horrible comes off of 3 fights. strong stance

[Mark Buckton 1]

maybe good to read the initial post again lads. In your own jump to defend Asa, you miss the point entirely so I will try and spell it out:

Asa first appeared as an ozeki at the Aki 2002 basho.

Since then he has won 22 basho. This is a great achievement but -

he had 3 basho as an ozeki - he went 10-5 in the first, won the 2nd and third. (for his first and second yusho)

Aki 2002 - 10-5 and both yokozuna appearing finished above him.

Kyushu 2002 - he won the yusho but neither yokozuna finished the basho and 2 of the 5 ozeki also dropped out. IIRC Taka didn't appear at all and Maru was out by nakabi.

Hatsu 2003 - Asa won again but - Maru failed to appear 0-0-15, Taka was out by nakabi and 2 of the 5 ozeki didn't appear 0-0-15 and one other was out before nakabi

Taka retired at the start of 2003 and throughout that year, the remaining yokozuna - Maru - missed 4 whole basho and failed to reach nakabi in the other 2.

Subsequently, Asa won 3 yusho in 2003. None of these victories came against an active yokozuna.

To this time, he had had 8 basho with another yokozuna 'in town' but had NEVER won a basho when another yokozuna finished.

Of course the injuries of Maru cannot be held against him but he did benefit from very poor performances of the ozeki.

Only, in 2003, 3 times did the full complement of ozeki finish the basho. On those occasions, Asashoryu (as yokozuna) won only 1 yusho. He dropped out once with a 5-5 record after 10 days.

I feel this shows that he is not as formidable as he is made out to be when all the rikishi enter and finish a basho in reasonable health.

Following the 2003 Kyushu retirement of Maru - with no other yokozuna and at times a comical selection of ozeki, he won around 15 more yusho in 20 odd attempts.

And then Hakuho arrived - the crux of my point highlighting the potential mental weakness of Asa when another 'center of attention' is around and stealing some of the limelight.

Hak arrived with a tsuna in 2007 - Nagoya. In the time since, they have had 4 full on basho with the chance to go head to head on 4 of 6 senshuraku. Asa has won 2 and Hak has won 2. Given a third opportunity with a full set of ozeki set to finish the tourney (this basho) - he again fails to capture the yusho and posts a dismal 11-4 or 10-5. Hak is in the yusho race till the day before senshuraku.

So, not counting his 2 missed basho which were simply his own fault, he has had 12 opportunities to win a yusho against an active yokozuna - and has done so just twice. I believe the very presence of an equal in rank is very un-nerving for him and that is why he does so poorly.

He has, admittedly, as I mentioned earlier, suffered due to the health / wrist issues of Maru, but in 6 basho as an ozeki or yokozuna againt another active yokozuna finishing a basho, won just 2 of those tourneys. (as long as my counts are not mistaken and I don't think they are) That is not a very good return against other yokozuna - my point.

Edited May 25, 2008 by Mark Buckton