Japanese men & women. Behaviour etc ...

[Bealzbob 0]

I've always thought the Japanese people to be far more respectful than the average Westerner. While it seems that being bold, loud and brash in the West is seen to be a sign of self-confidence, it is not a requirement in Japanese (and probably plenty of other East Asian) culture.

While trying to find out what "yawarakasa" meant, I stumbled across an article in the Japan Times articulating exactly what & why the differences are there and basically confirming what I've always thought.

I really like the respect the Japanese show to others and I'm glad to see it is a valued trait. I'm glad to see they also don't appear to be striving to be more like 'the West', as in fact I'd prefer if we were more like the Japanese. (Laughing...)

[Harry 67]

Good article! Thanks for posting.

Now where is the article on expected modern male Mongolian behavior?

[Randomitsuki 2,548]

I really like the respect the Japanese show to others and I'm glad to see it is a valued trait.

One of the first preconceptions I had about Japanese culture involved the notion of politeness and mutual respect. I like politeness quite much, and found such a trait (if it existed) very admirable.

However, from my extremely limited Japan experience (one week) I gained the impression that politeness and respect are not always meant to be reciprocal. As a typical example, I liked it very much that waiters were so extremely polite, and consequently I tended to be extra polite to them in return. By observing how native Japanese (especially men) treated waiters (no eye contact, no "thank you", all gruffy etc.) I got the impression that my behavior was "inappropriate" - you "ought" to be polite only to people on the same or higher hierarchy.

Any thoughts?

[Bealzbob 0]

So you experienced a form of classism then by the sounds of it.

[kaiguma 0]

So you experienced a form of classism then by the sounds of it.

Yes, only this classism is so formalized that it strongly resembles caste-ism. Some of these traditions seem to be changing and others really aren't despite a lot of modernization of the Japanese social mindset. Businessmen are still 99% likely to let a door slam shut on a mother with stroller walking right on their heels out of a building or train station. And they may even point and jeer at a man pushing a stroller, which naturally is completely outlandish. Hah, a man pushing a stroller! Can you imagine?!

[Azumashida 1]

I really like the respect the Japanese show to others and I'm glad to see it is a valued trait.

One of the first preconceptions I had about Japanese culture involved the notion of politeness and mutual respect. I like politeness quite much, and found such a trait (if it existed) very admirable.

However, from my extremely limited Japan experience (one week) I gained the impression that politeness and respect are not always meant to be reciprocal. As a typical example, I liked it very much that waiters were so extremely polite, and consequently I tended to be extra polite to them in return. By observing how native Japanese (especially men) treated waiters (no eye contact, no "thank you", all gruffy etc.) I got the impression that my behavior was "inappropriate" - you "ought" to be polite only to people on the same or higher hierarchy.

Any thoughts?

Funny, I had exactly the same experience the first time I went to a cafe in Japan, being overpolite to the overpolite waiters/resses and then seeing that actually virtually everyone treats them as though they don't exist. I suppose that no matter how polite you want to be, after a while you have been greeted so often in the same way by all the service staff - when you enter cafes, department stores, or whatever - that you stop bothering being "reciprocal" in any way anymore. That's also part of "acculturation" I guess...

[Kaikitsune Makoto 189]

Much of the politeness in speech and gestures is also very superficial. Still at many places the service is very good and sometimes to embarrassing degree. One subway ekiin worker man tried to escort me to some 500 metres to the only kaitenzushi at some big station as he said he is not totally sure if he gave me the right instructions and all this after 10 minutes of immense thinking, station guide book reading and consulting another station worker. I just said I will go to another station anyway and I know there is one so no need to become my personal assistant like that. Maybe they go all out to help you for reasons that are not really based on friendliness but culture or the way it is done but certainly in Japan one can get surprisingly devoted help from people.

I like to do the air breaking maneuvre that jijii and rikishi do in Japan. It is very polite and feels nice. I do it in Finland too and it works here too as a polite gesture. People like that. It is very polite to break the air and apologize for interfering with other person's airspace. Kind of like when a big jumbo jet would break the air so that the plane coming from behind would be spared from wake turbulence. Ok, I don't break the air with such visible cutting movement but more like opening my palm towards the person I am interfering with and so on. It works. Try it you gaijin fools!

[Mark Buckton 1]

So you experienced a form of classism then by the sounds of it.

Businessmen are still 99% likely to let a door slam shut on a mother with stroller walking right on their heels out of a building or train station.

And they may even point and jeer at a man pushing a stroller, which naturally is completely outlandish. Hah, a man pushing a stroller! Can you imagine?!

Ridiculous statements. :-O presumably based on a lack of experience and too much stock put in stereotypes.

Just how long have you spent in Japan kaiguma?

I am now in my 12th consecutive year in Tokyo, have honestly never seen these things happen, and as someone often out (alone) with my son in a 'stroller' before he was OK to walk unaided, - nobody ever pointed and laughed. Perhaps I missed it. :-)

Not everybody holds a door open for those behind them (impractical in a city with a daytime population of around 12?? million) and I am sure you don't either but a little observation will tell you that many (not all - there are always bad apples) do give the door that extra little shove to keep it open longer or walk a little slower as they approach - so as to to be able to keep the door open a few seconds more for another person approaching.

Perhaps Japan and the Japanese are more subtle than you care to notice - or admit?

Time for the 'I was only joking' post? (Whistling...)

Edited March 4, 2008 by Mark Buckton

[Sasanishiki 57]

and as someone often out (alone) with my son in a 'stroller' before he was OK to walk unaided, - nobody ever pointed and laughed. Perhaps I missed it. :-)

Yeah, it was mixed in with them laughing at you for being a gaijin :-O

[Mark Buckton 1]

:-O

and as someone often out (alone) with my son in a 'stroller' before he was OK to walk unaided, - nobody ever pointed and laughed. Perhaps I missed it. :-)

Yeah, it was mixed in with them laughing at you for being a gaijin (Neener, neener...)

(Whistling...)

[Hashira 0]

I like to do the air breaking maneuvre that jijii and rikishi do in Japan. It is very polite and feels nice. ... It is very polite to break the air and apologize for interfering with other person's airspace.

When I break air, I try to do so in the middle of a group of people while walking briskly, so that by the time the notice the aroma, I'm far away, and it's still there, filling everybody's airspace

as for those comments by kaiguma, I would classify them as exaggerations with a kernel of truth. I would say that fewer Japanese men than Canadians would likely hold a door for a woman with a stroller, but I would put the number who would hold it for her at well above 1%. An important question is whether holding the door is a just a PR exercise- many people around see the nice man holding the door for the woman. also, how many men hold the door for a woman just so they can look at her yawarakasa from behind?

[Bealzbob 0]

I am now in my 12th consecutive year in Tokyo, have honestly never seen these things happen, and as someone often out (alone) with my son in a 'stroller' before he was OK to walk unaided, - nobody ever pointed and laughed. Perhaps I missed it.

Regardless of whether Japanese men do or do not point and laugh at men walking a stroller (I haven't a clue on that tbh), I DO think it is reasonable to assume that the behavioural standards the locals strive towards would not necessarily be expected of, or applied to, a gaijin, after all you are gaijin with your own mannerisms and upbringing.

So it is entirely possible (and I would say very likely) that they might not opine on your manner in the way they would their own.

[Mark Buckton 1]

Regardless of whether Japanese men do or do not point and laugh at men walking a stroller (I haven't a clue on that tbh), I DO think it is reasonable to assume that the behavioural standards the locals strive towards would not necessarily be expected of, or applied to, a gaijin, after all you are gaijin with your own mannerisms and upbringing.

indeed - but you omit the fact that we are often scrutinised far harsher than our hosts would be. I live in an area where my own reflection causes me surprise as I see gaijin so infrequently.

In addition, I have often seen Japanese dads with their kids but without the mothers of the children - none of those men have ever been laughed at.

[kaiguma 0]

Too many misreadings to quote them all, so let this just be a catch-all response. I said Japanese businessmen, not Japanese men. It's a more precise demographic with sexism, classism, and very complex superiority issues deeply and traditionally ingrained into their subculture. It has taken over 20 years just to chip away at the edifice, but one could certainly say it's better now than 20 years ago...

The stroller in the door thing: this of course happens to my wife in NYC too, but far less often than in Tokyo. Bearing in mind that NYC is stereotyped as the rudeness capital of the world. There is no joking or inexperience here, because I've seen it firsthand and heard it second-hand from plenty of Japanese mothers. So at the risk of getting more grief over it, I'll add to the comment: I didn't have much trouble with "very important looking people" letting a door slam on me when I was right behind them (implying the extra push would have been just fine thank you) because they obviously did notice me, being a gaijin daddy pushing a stroller. What my wife and most of her friends have told me, and I witnessed, is that these particular men tend to treat a Japanese mother as if she is not there - as if she does not exist. On certain levels I understand the difference in culture, and especially the focus on efficiency. But there are many specific instances when I thought it was just an excuse for a deep and unhappy selfishness, and a self-centered attitude that is not culturally healthy. Oh, I also saw very many "classy-looking middle-aged ladies" do exactly the same thing.

Laughing at daddy with stroller thing, this was something of hyperbole. However, I did at times feel a subtle sense of mockery coming from certain types of men, actually the same types who on more than one occasion allowed a heavy door to slam forcefully on a stroller being pushed by my wife. So I am quite capable at understanding Japanese subtlety. But to be fair, they may have been silently mocking me because I look funny, walk funny, talk funny, am gaijin, etc. Not scientifically connected to the fact I am pushing a stroller. In one instance, I push the stroller onto a crowded train into an awkward position in front of two seated businessmen. From the circumstances of entering the train, it is not obvious I am with my wife. (Plus many people assumed my young-looking mother is my wife and that my wife is unrelated to us.) I can sense these two guys are having a joke on me over something, so when we get off I ask the wife. And yes, they are essentially saying I look very unmanly in the situation and isn't it so pitiful/funny. Maybe because I have a ponytail and not because I am the one pushing the stroller...

Btw, ojii-chan businessman always holds the door for mother with stroller. And sometimes young ones who have not gotten high enough up on the ladder to enjoy spitting on people below. ;-)

[Mark Buckton 1]

Too many misreadings to quote them all, so let this just be a catch-all response.

Maybe because I have a ponytail

I think catch-all is the perfect choice of word(s) as you have attempted to analyse a huge, massive number of men in Japan based on very few examples, likely one or two bad apples, and the need to show how much better you are.

Would be like me, having years ago finished the Malcolm X biography, deeming most folk in Brooklyn / Harlem (was it?) to be either pimps or pushers - as that is the picture painted by a man with much more experience than I will ever have there.

Or, labelling 99% or men with ponytails living in Brooklyn as violent and criminally minded based on the visit and mugging of a Japanese friend a few years ago - by a chap with a ponytail.

I would attempt neither for to do so would be an

overgeneralisationbasedonfarfromenoughexperiencetoreallyhaveanopinionanyonewould

wanttolistento.

[Shibouyama 1]

Jeez, it's been a loooong time since I've posted.

Anyways, based on my 7 years live in rural Japan, I would say that Japanese are (in a general sense, of course, please don't whine about making generalities) much better mannered than Americans (I'm American, btw), a lot of it is, like Kaikitsune said, just superficial. However, that doesn't detract from it's value. Whether it's truly sincere or not, use of social etiquette makes a big difference.

But, I think it goes beyond etiquette as well. The low-crime, mid-sized city in Minnesota that I grew up in seems to me a dangerous and violent place compared to the city I now live in. There just isn't hardly any crime or trouble here.

As far as holding doors open though, yeah, it's not very common here.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Good to see you back Shibs. Looking forward to some more of your froggy Tottori humor.

[James H 0]

As far as holding doors open though, yeah, it's not very common here.

At the risk of getting jumped on for generalizing...

If we are looking at general politeness, the most interesting group for me is the middle-aged to older women. Amazing people - some have a capacity for kindness that leaves you ashamed about all the other times you swear at them under your breath for elbowing you in the windpipe as they try to steal a seat from a pregnant woman on the train.

That is one demographic that combines the best and worst of Japanese people in public (except drunk salarymen en mass, which is another 50/50 experience for the average gaijin - half want to tell you Japan is No. 1 and the other half are just amiable drunks).

As a Tokyo dad who commutes five days a week and travels on public transport pretty much every day, I am no longer shocked by obasans' behaviour, which goes from obstinately obstructive and pettily vindictive to overwhelmingly considerate.

To me, although Japanese put a consistently lower level of importance on the kind of public politeness Westerners find important - offering seats, holding doors open, helping mums using pushchairs get off buses or up stairs and so on, the fact that some people make an effort to help while others are intentionally rude suggests a general uncertainty about what the correct mode of behaviour is.

[Bealzbob 0]

suggests a general uncertainty about what the correct mode of behaviour is.

Interesting. But shouldn't the 'correct' mode always be the 'polite' mode ? Just an opinion. Interesting post though.

[ilovesumo 12]

I really like the respect the Japanese show to others and I'm glad to see it is a valued trait.

One of the first preconceptions I had about Japanese culture involved the notion of politeness and mutual respect. I like politeness quite much, and found such a trait (if it existed) very admirable.

However, from my extremely limited Japan experience (one week) I gained the impression that politeness and respect are not always meant to be reciprocal. As a typical example, I liked it very much that waiters were so extremely polite, and consequently I tended to be extra polite to them in return. By observing how native Japanese (especially men) treated waiters (no eye contact, no "thank you", all gruffy etc.) I got the impression that my behavior was "inappropriate" - you "ought" to be polite only to people on the same or higher hierarchy.

Any thoughts?

I worked as waitress, 10 months in Japan during my studies...

I was smiling, open, -fresh young western female, telling everybody how great Sumo is.... Most people liked me but some made me feel to be "just a waitress".

That's normal for them. And a "good morning" to a cleaning lady for example is not "normal"....I damn said good morning, as well as I thanked the shop's staff. I earned a lot of smiles, had some nice talk so that couldn't be the wrong way.

Those people who forced respect from me....got only a little bit....I was joking a lot.....like the Japanese salary men in the german reastaurant, ordering Sake and Asahi beer (we had about 50 sorts of german beer but only one japanese....), those guys were kinda......so I joked around how boring it is to drink japanese beer in a german restaurant...hehe.....those looks.....but one young guy of the group had to laugh

and I won ;-)

I respect everybody, except those who think they are better then others...in Japan as well as here.

Being a foreigner in Japan makes one sensitive.

@ James

I agree.

2007, Kokugikan - 2 mid-aged females were very unpolite, telling my friend and me we are "totally stupid" - they just wanted us to go away for being foreigners...so we went away. Half an hour later a woman, about 50, went to us for a chat. She told us to be pretty, intelligent young ladies and said "Please marry a japanese and settle down here, you are so nice".

After that, I just thought- it wasn't our fault before...;-)

Of course, male quirks are more tolerated than female ones and less likely to be categorized as wagamama (selfish), or fushigi (freaky). Besides, the onna-rashisa code requires that Japanese women be quiet, unassuming and kikijozu (good at listening to others, especially pontificating men), with an inherent dislike of anything conspicuous. So I'm always surprised when men complain that "Nihonjin no onna wa minna onaji de omoshirokunai (Japanese women are all the same and just not interesting)." Uh, hello? Whose fault is that?

Hehehe.... Who's fault it is.... IF they don't like it, they have to be rebel. Rebel means becoming an outsider so they just take it as it is...

Edited March 12, 2008 by ilovesumo

[James H 0]

Interesting. But shouldn't the 'correct' mode always be the 'polite' mode ?

Well there's the rub. I think it more involves the idea of in-groups and out-groups, which leads to how Japanese interact with strangers. The whole thing about how those outside your group are basically nobodies is extended to public spheres, which of course include commuter trains, buses, department stores on the first of January...

Others on this forum can explain better, but I think the confusion for the particularly vicious middle aged women and older is that their in-group often extends to only their families, so they are constantly at war with the rest of the world.

But now I AM generalizing.... and pop sociologizing (is that a word?)

Edited March 12, 2008 by James H

[kaiguma 0]

I think catch-all is the perfect choice of word(s) as you have attempted to analyse a huge, massive number of men in Japan based on very few examples, likely one or two bad apples, and the need to show how much better you are.

How on earth did you conjure that last line of psychobabble? How much better I am? Than the average Japanese businessman? There's simply no comparison and I have no such need to hold myself to their standards or to hold them to mine. But there are times when I think universal human standards may be applied.

And yes, I am generalizing, but I believe I've done so within reason. After all, you cannot make general statements about a culture without, yes, making generalizations; there are simply, ummm, millions of individuals to account for. So if we are not allowed to generalize then this entire thread would never have been started.

Sometimes you don't need to experience something for years to know when it is happening to you and other people around you. In 10 days we stayed in 4 cities or towns, visited 8, stayed in 6 hotels or inns, and traveled almost exclusively by public transportation (besides the longer legs of the trip). I had quite enough time to observe a lot of strangers interacting in public, not just how others interacted with my own family. And I can say that the phenomenon of which I speak was pervasive, not one or two bad apples. It was a culturally approved practice of ignoring other people. And speaking of ignoring other people, do I have to give names and addresses of our Japanese mom friends who agree wholeheartedly with this analysis?

overgeneralisationbasedonhavingyourheadsofarupyourassthatyouhavetotryandproveyou

knowmoreabouteverythingthaneveryoneelseyetnotreallyhavinganopinionanyonewould

wanttolistentosowhywouldyoubesurprisedthatyouwentthroughaperiodofutterisolationa

ndostracizationonthisforum? And considering that, I don't know why I ever enter into any disussion when you start to 'fall into the pattern.'

If you have anything else to say on the matter, trust me, I don't.

@James the 50/50 thing is a really good point. Maybe not always 50/50 odds, but there is always a coin-toss effect and people who are not rude or self-important are often quite the opposite. I never meant to imply that I had no positive interactions with strangers in my brief stay in Japan.

[Mark Buckton 1]

WithimitationthesincerestformofflatteryIamhumbleddeartailedone.

One day I will relate to the forum the full and overwhelming expertise I picked up in working at Nellis AFB in Nevada for 3 weeks in 1994. Had a couple of days at St. Paul too.

Staying off base - just off the Strip in Vegas - for such a lengthy period has of course enabled me to thereafter provide well rounded generalistations on all Americans, their cultural habits, mannerisms, tendency to hold doors open (or not) and fondness for strip joints and Elvis impersonation.

I can, based on that impressive period of observation, and subsequent expertise in all things American, say with authority that most American men regularly visit such facilities and enjoy tucking 1 dollar bills into the underwear of girls named Brandey, Crystal and the like. They go at least once a week. Most women in America are named Brandey and Crystal it turns out and all American women call men 'honey' and offer to dance very close to them. This is a fact across America as I have seen it happen once.

IIRC, also basing my expertise on Vegas, most American men with ponytails are either homeless or are, in fact, women. It's a fact. I know this as I saw one homeless man and he had a ponytail so all such men must be homeless. I don't think they wash very often and they often push shopping carts containing their belongings. I am still studying the connection between the carts and the 'tails' but I think it is related to watching their mother do the same in their childhood. The other Americans I saw with ponytails were in fact of the species - homo-sapien femaleian - or, were ponys.

If anybody has any questions on American men, women or $1 buffets in Casinos, please fire away. I also went water-skiing (or tried to) once on Lake Mead so am similarly knowledgeable in US Environmental issues. That same day I sampled tequila for the first and last time so know everything there is to know about Mehico too. I love spaghetti!

Finally, I once saw the trailer for Gone With the Wind so am of course expert on US Race relations. :-O

Edited March 15, 2008 by Mark Buckton

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Now Mark, be fair. If you had married Candy, or Cherry, or whateverhernamewas, you could have become qualified as an expert in all-things-'merican. Without someone to advise you on "MY America", how can you possibly comment? (Laughing...)

Edited March 15, 2008 by Otokonoyama

[Umigame 82]

Without someone to advise you on "MY America", how can you possibly comment? (Laughing...)

Ha ha, is that a reference to The Seven Stages of Gaijinhood?

"F*** off you lot, this is MY Japan!"