Japanese men & women. Behaviour etc ...

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Without someone to advise you on "MY America", how can you possibly comment? (Neener, neener...)

Ha ha, is that a reference to The Seven Stages of Gaijinhood?

"F*** off you lot, this is MY Japan!"

Naw, though upon reading the linked article I see why you thought so. I've come across plenty who have a Japanese parent or spouse, and though they have never personally lived in Japan, feel quite free to preach the 'true gospel' to all those they meet.

[Mark Buckton 1]

brilliant piece of writing with just one flaw - the belief that passing through to the finalstage can be achieved in 3 years when obviously it takes just 10 days (Laughing...)

Sometimes you don't need to experience something for years to know when it is happening to you and other people around you. In 10 days............

(Neener, neener...) (Shaking head...) :-( (Applauding...) (Whatever above, it is funny...) (First prize...)

[Shibouyama 1]

WithimitationthesincerestformofflatteryIamhumbleddeartailedone.

Overgenralizations

I think Kaiguma spent enough time in Japan to form a reasonable opinion of whether people open doors or not.

Your reply, Mark, 'I spent 1 day in dokodoko, so I know everything'. is really childish. He didn't say that, and you know it.

I don't remember many of your posts from before, but the posts you made in this thread seem pretty childish to me. Is this the level of all your commentary on this forum?

P.S. I never read that secret email you sent me. I deleted it without reading it.

[ilovesumo 12]

Without someone to advise you on "MY America", how can you possibly comment? ;-)

Ha ha, is that a reference to The Seven Stages of Gaijinhood?

"F*** off you lot, this is MY Japan!"

Hehehehe....am between 5 and 6 I think ;-)

The sentence about the stage when a person tells everyone that he/she loves superjapanese things like Natto, Sumo.....

one compared Natto with Sumo...

ahem...chanko is yummy (Shaking head...)

I had no problem eating Natto, actually it was in the last month of my stay and I was happy I won't miss it (like the Fuji I never ever saw...) but eating that made me wanna cook my boss (restaurant boss) a vegetarian meal ;-) Actually I am a good cook....hehe

[kame 0]

thx for the article link... i'm accidental! wooo~! *extends hand*

[Shomishuu 0]

I really like the respect the Japanese show to others and I'm glad to see it is a valued trait.

One of the first preconceptions I had about Japanese culture involved the notion of politeness and mutual respect. I like politeness quite much, and found such a trait (if it existed) very admirable.

However, from my extremely limited Japan experience (one week) I gained the impression that politeness and respect are not always meant to be reciprocal. As a typical example, I liked it very much that waiters were so extremely polite, and consequently I tended to be extra polite to them in return. By observing how native Japanese (especially men) treated waiters (no eye contact, no "thank you", all gruffy etc.) I got the impression that my behavior was "inappropriate" - you "ought" to be polite only to people on the same or higher hierarchy.

Any thoughts?

Late seeing the thread, but I believe that this experience is also very much job related. IOW, the waiters job is to appear subservient to you so you will enjoy your experience there. When the waiter is elevated to your level, he/she feels incapable of doing their job. Everyone feels a little 'off.'

Oversimplifying the obvious, perhaps...

Edited March 17, 2008 by Shomishuu

[Hananotaka 8]

That's a nice article.

Some various thoughts...

In anthropology and cultural studies, there are two main approaches: etic, and emic. An etic approach is objective - it observes from the outside. Emic, OTOH, is subjective. It observes from the inside. The downside of the etic approach is the black box. You only see the surface, and you can only draw your conclusions by using your own cultural standards against what you observe. You miss everything going on underneath. The downside of the emic approach is that you're like a fish in a fish bowl. You never get the big, overencompassing view of your environment.

Of course, accessing both of these approaches is best. As an expat, though, I think it is essential to get to know things on the emic level. This involves a certain level of "cultural cross-dressing". You have to be willing to accept, unequivocally, the assumptions inherent in the other culture. You have to turn off your critical thinking skills for a bit, and accept everything you are given. This is by no means any way to live. But I think it's an important stage to go through (and occasionally return to). It's only with that experience that one can really appraise another culture. Every culture is inherently logical. Cultural differences arise when the cultures logically progress from different starting points.

One sticking point for many Westerners (particularly Americans) when coming to Japan is the ranked, hierarchal relationships, what the Japanese call "jouge kankei", top-to-bottom relationships. Confucius wasn't Greek, so his philosophy isn't really a part of Western civilization. But while the ideal of the "equality of man" is certainly a good and natural one, it's also true that in the natural world all animal "societies" are inherently hierarchal. So while one might quibble with Confucius's specific ranking (e.g., men over women), his ideas about natural order aren't all that crazy, and when applied right, have great social value.

For example, sempai-kohai (or in sumo terms, ani-deshi, otouto-deshi). In schools, clubs, and work, a Japanese person will always have sempai (seniors) and kohai (juniors). From the etic POV, this seems terribly restricting, militaristic, and ripe for abuse. The kohai serve the sempai. The sempai order the kohai around. What good is gained from these uneven relationships? OTOH, from the emic POV, the sempai-kohai relationship is a beautiful thing. The sempai cares for and looks out for the kohai. He teaches him what he needs to know, he bails him out of trouble, he takes responsibility for him. In Japan, sempai always pay. The kohai, by attending to the sempai, learns a fine sensitivity to others, of reading non-verbal cues, and anticipating the wants and needs of others. And it gets "paid forward" as the junior gets older, and has his own kohai. By contrast, while some Japanese enjoy the freedom of the American style, many others find it cold and lonely, feeling like they are left to fend for themselves, and that what fellowship and camaraderie that exist are shallow and superficial.

So, looking at wait-people and other service industry folk. In the U.S. (I use the U.S. only because I'm American, and can only really speak for it), the staff are friendly and polite (partly or mostly because their tip depends on it), and the American way is one of equality, so customers respond in kind. Just because someone is serving you, it doesn't make them your servant, basically. OTOH, in Japan, where relationships are highly contextual, the waiter and the customer don't have any real relationship. In the sense of the "Customer is always right", the customer has a momentary superiority of position, so the waiter will of course use honorific and polite speech. But both customer and waiter know that this is merely superficial politeness because of the context (and what's more, strictly according to a manual), so there's no need for the customer to reciprocate politeness. The waiters will act the same way when they themselves are customers.

Regarding Tokyo. In the year and a half that I lived there, I came to the conclusion that the "rudeness" endemic there is essentially extreme "indifference". It is simply so crowded there, that if you apologized to every person you bumped into, or held open the door for the person behind you, you'd never get anywhere. In order to deal with the crowds, you end up creating this personal bubble, and from the time you leave the house to the time you get to the office, you just let all of Tokyo bounce off this bubble. And it's true to a lesser extent in all of the major cities. I can understand it, but it's also a reason why I left Tokyo, and why I'm always ambivalent about going back. On the shinkansen going to Tokyo I often think back fondly on the time I spent there, but when I arrive I see the crowds, hustle, and bustle, and think, "Ah yes. This is why I left."

As for opening doors for people, or holding them open, it just doesn't appear to be part of everyday etiquette. My own theory is that this is a relic of the prevalence of sliding doors in Japan (at the schools I work at, almost all doors are sliding doors). I imagine that if swinging doors became even more common in Japanese homes, schools, and workplaces, opening and holding doors for others will also become more common.

Anway, just some random thoughts. Take them FWIW, and of course YMMV.

Edited March 18, 2008 by Hananotaka

[Kintamayama 40,720]

Some various thoughts...

I woke up this morning-foggy outside. But the forum's light shines bright with really great posts like this and Moto-riji's.

"Ich bin eine forumer!!"

Edited March 18, 2008 by Kintamayama

[Bealzbob 0]

Thanks for that Hananotaka. Very articulate and verbose.

[James H 0]

Yeah, great post Hananotaka.

I think you are right about the indifference - it is the only way to survive a commute. One thing that backs this up is when you travel on trains with children, which break through indifference and inspire acts of generosity (and occasionally weird anti-child outbursts, but only very rarely).

As for the Seven Stages of Gaijinhood.... ouch.

[kotoeikoku 0]

This is an extremely erudite post. As an up-and-coming Anthropology student (from a Japanese studies background) I agree with pretty much all of it.

On the subject mentioned earlier about 'businessmen sneering at men pushing prams' (or something along those lines), whilst that was an exaggeration it does have a kernal of truth. Parts of Japanese society still have very harshly prescribed gender roles (this doesn't mean that everyone adheres to them of course, for Japan is infinitely more varied than many give it credit for), and for a lot of middle and upper-class salarymen it is very much the mother's responsibility to look after the children.

A by-product of this cultural paradigm is that house-husbands (who do of course exist in japan) are often stigmatised as 'unmanly.' I recall seeing a very emotional TV drama about the struggle of a group of house-husbands (whose wives were all ambitious career women) to overcome their own sense of emasculation and the stigma from their friends, relatives and wider society.