Doitsuyama 1,192 Posted September 17, 2003 The yusho arasoi gets thinner by the day as Yokozuna Asashoryu continues to hold up his chances for the zensho yusho which by the way really would increase his monthly future income, so there is some monetary incentive. The two Ozeki Chiyotaikai and Tochiazuma had no problems to keep the distance, Kotomitsuki had really to fight against Tochinonada and the rest lost again to fall back. Tochiazuma meanwhile got kachi-koshi today and will be Ozeki for at least two more basho. Dejima won today against Kaiho but he didn't look strong in that. Now Kaiho has to win 2 out of four to stay in Makuuchi. There are some strong promotion candidates in Juryo knocking at the door, but so far not many Makuuchi rikishi are giving room. J1 Tamakasuga got his eighth win today, so his promotion looks unavoidable; the same with J3 Takanowaka at 9 wins despite his loss against Kokkai today and J5 Takekaze with 10 wins. Those rikishi also are the current Juryo leaders, along with Harunoyama also at 8 wins. -- Doitsuyama Makuuchi yusho arasoi Zensho One loss Two losses Three losses Four losses ------------- ------------- ------------- ------------- ------------- Asashoryu Chiyotaikai Tochiazuma Wakanosato Kotomitsuki Takamisakari Kyokutenho Iwakiyama Tamanoshima Kinkaiyama Aminishiki Day 11 Juryo Ms2e Bushuyama (4-2) katasukashi J12w Asofuji (4-7) J8w Harunoyama (8-3) yorikiri J9w Senshuyama (7-4) J10w Kaido (7-4) oshidashi J8e Kitazakura (6-5) J7w Tochinohana (4-7) hatakikomi J12e Juzan (5-6) J13e Tochifudo (3-8) abisetaoshi J7e Chiyotenzan (5-6) J6w Masutsuyoshi (4-7) hatakikomi J11w Sentoryu (4-7) J13w Dewanofuji (6-5) oshidashi J5w Kobo (5-6) J5e Takekaze (10-1) tsukiotoshi J6e Aogiyama (4-7) J4w Futeno (2-9) yorikiri J11e Wakakosho (1-10) J4e Kokkai (7-4) shitatenage J3e Takanowaka (9-2) J2w Toyozakura (6-5) tsukidashi J10e Oikari (5-6) J1e Tamakasuga (8-3) oshidashi J9e Hayateumi (7-4) Makuuchi M14e Asanowaka (4-7) okuridashi J3w Kasugao (3-6-2) M10e Dejima (4-7) kotenage M10w Kaiho (3-8) M15e Otsukasa (6-5) hatakikomi M9w Aminishiki (7-4) M9e Kinkaiyama (7-4) yorikiri M12w Shimotori (5-6) M8w Jumonji (5-6) uwatedashinage M11w Tamarikido (5-6) M8e Kyokushuzan (5-6) shitatedashinage M14w Wakanoyama (4-7) M7e Buyuzan (5-6) okuritaoshi M13e Wakatoba (5-6) M15w Ushiomaru (5-6) oshidashi M6w Tochisakae (2-9) M5w Kasuganishiki (5-6) yoritaoshi M13w Yotsukasa (6-5) M5e Iwakiyama (7-4) yorikiri M11e Kakizoe (6-5) M4w Takanonami (4-7) kimedashi M3e Kotoryu (3-8) M2e Kyokutenho (7-4) uwatenage M7w Tamanoshima (7-4) M6e Kotomitsuki (8-3) yorikiri M1w Tochinonada (5-6) K1w Tosanoumi (5-6) yorikiri M1e Takamisakari (7-4) K1e Toki (6-5) hikiotoshi M2w Hokutoriki (4-7) O2w Tochiazuma (8-3) yorikiri M3w Tokitsuumi (4-7) O1w Chiyotaikai (9-2) yorikiri M4e Asasekiryu (5-6) S1e Wakanosato (7-4) oshidashi O1e Kaio (6-5) Y1e Asashoryu (11-0) yorikiri S1w Miyabiyama (3-8) Day 12 Makushita Ms11w Fukuzono (2-3) Ms9w Daimanazuru (2-3) Ms14e Natsubori (1-4) Ms8w Kotokanyu (1-4) Ms10w Kotokikutsugi (2-3) Ms7w Daishodai (2-3) Ms7e Ama (4-1) Ms9e Wakatenro (4-1) Ms6e Tamanokuni (3-2) Ms13w Kotonomine (3-2) Juryo Ms4e Tokitenku (3-3) J12w Asofuji (4-7) J8e Kitazakura (6-5) J9e Hayateumi (7-4) J7e Chiyotenzan (5-6) J11e Wakakosho (1-10) J9w Senshuyama (7-4) J7w Tochinohana (4-7) J6e Aogiyama (4-7) J10e Oikari (5-6) J5e Takekaze (10-1) J13w Dewanofuji (6-5) J12e Juzan (5-6) J5w Kobo (5-6) J4e Kokkai (7-4) J11w Sentoryu (4-7) J13e Tochifudo (3-8) J4w Futeno (2-9) J3e Takanowaka (9-2) J10w Kaido (7-4) J6w Masutsuyoshi (4-7) J3w Kasugao (3-6-2) J1e Tamakasuga (8-3) J8w Harunoyama (8-3) Makuuchi M14e Asanowaka (4-7) J2w Toyozakura (6-5) M11e Kakizoe (6-5) M11w Tamarikido (5-6) M10e Dejima (4-7) M15w Ushiomaru (5-6) M9e Kinkaiyama (7-4) M15e Otsukasa (6-5) M8e Kyokushuzan (5-6) M13w Yotsukasa (6-5) M14w Wakanoyama (4-7) M8w Jumonji (5-6) M7e Buyuzan (5-6) M12w Shimotori (5-6) M13e Wakatoba (5-6) M5w Kasuganishiki (5-6) M4e Asasekiryu (5-6) M9w Aminishiki (7-4) M10w Kaiho (3-8) M4w Takanonami (4-7) M3e Kotoryu (3-8) M6w Tochisakae (2-9) M3w Tokitsuumi (4-7) M2w Hokutoriki (4-7) M1e Takamisakari (7-4) M7w Tamanoshima (7-4) K1e Toki (6-5) M2e Kyokutenho (7-4) M1w Tochinonada (5-6) K1w Tosanoumi (5-6) O1e Kaio (6-5) M6e Kotomitsuki (8-3) M5e Iwakiyama (7-4) O2w Tochiazuma (8-3) S1w Miyabiyama (3-8) O1w Chiyotaikai (9-2) Y1e Asashoryu (11-0) S1e Wakanosato (7-4) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chinonofuji 35 Posted September 17, 2003 You mentioned Kokkai, which made me remember a question I had the other day. Kokkai, at J4e, was tapped to wrestle against a Makuuchi wrestler. Why was he selected, as opposed to a higher ranking Juryo rikishi? Is this considered an honor, is it based on performance in the current basho, or is it just a scheduling thing? Thanks! -C Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,543 Posted September 17, 2003 (edited) You mentioned Kokkai, which made me remember a question I had the other day. Kokkai, at J4e, was tapped to wrestle against a Makuuchi wrestler. Why was he selected, as opposed to a higher ranking Juryo rikishi? Is this considered an honor, is it based on performance in the current basho, or is it just a scheduling thing? Thanks! All the Juryo rikishi ranked higher than him already had a bout in Makuuchi (or are injured), so he was more or less next in line...they do seem to try to share around these bouts as much as possible, i.e. no Juryo and no Makuuchi getting an excessive amount of them. I'm actually a bit surprised they're calling up Toyozakura tomorrow again (I'd have expected Takekaze up next), but maybe they're just starting a bit early on the promotion/demotion "adjustments" (Day 12 seems early to me anyway). I guess the Kyokai also noticed they don't have a whole lot of demotees lined up yet. :-D BTW, what about Tochisakae in the hypothetical case of him going 2-13 (or even 3-12)? Is he up high enough at M06 to be safe? Edited September 17, 2003 by Asashosakari Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kashunowaka 300 Posted September 17, 2003 BTW, what about Tochisakae in the hypothetical case of him going 2-13 (or even 3-12)? Is he up high enough at M06 to be safe? My guess is that he will stay with 3-12, but drop with 2-13. Depends on the banzuke situation, of course. :-D Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yubiquitoyama 4 Posted September 17, 2003 BTW, what about Tochisakae in the hypothetical case of him going 2-13 (or even 3-12)? Is he up high enough at M06 to be safe? Well, M06w is just on the verge of staying for a 2-13 rikishi. He could stay and he could drop, solely depending on whether someone needs to get up or not. Even 3-12 COULD mean a drop in extreme conditions. In more or less normal conditions with a banzuke going down to M15 or so, I think he would be able to stay even with 2-13 though. The problem this basho is that Tamakasuga, Takanowaka and Takekaze are more or less already ready for promotion. Kokkai and/or Toyozakura could join them. Assuming Asanowaka and Wakanoyama goes, but only one more among the group consisting of Kaiho, Dejima and the pack of 5-6/6-5 rikishi, it could be a situation where Tochisakae needs another 2 to be safe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chinonofuji 35 Posted September 17, 2003 How much discretion is likely to be used in Dejima's case? If he's "tied" with others, will he be less likely to be sent down, given the ramifications? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kotoseiya Yuichi 3 Posted September 17, 2003 I believe Dejima might be treated a bit more leniently than others competing for the last makuuchi places. Then again this is but a hunch. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zentoryu 154 Posted September 17, 2003 I believe Dejima might be treated a bit more leniently than others competing for the last makuuchi places. Then again this is but a hunch. I thought promotions and demotions were based purely on wins and losses Kotoseiya. Who the rikishi is doesn't have anything to do with it. Right? :-) :-D :-D :-D Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kotoseiya Yuichi 3 Posted September 18, 2003 (edited) Who the rikishi is doesn't have anything to do with it. Right? :-) :-D :-D :-D Correct. But I'm talking about the closest possible situation where two (or more) rikishi end up matematically to exactly same banzuke position. In such case there are no objective (purely mathematical, that is) reasons to favour or disfavour any one of them. As the juryo demotion of a former ozeki is such a rare occurence, I think being merciful to him (once!) wouldn't be too big an injustice to someone else. If, however, he were to lose the maku-jiri position by just half a theoretical mai-me, out he goes and no hard feelings on my part anyway. Edited September 18, 2003 by Kotoseiya Yuichi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,543 Posted September 18, 2003 (edited) At least he managed to improve his situation considerably with his win over Kaiho today. Now, how Kaiho managed to get himself into the situation he's in, I don't know...what's even more odd, I'm usually pretty attentive to potential promotions/demotions, but his case totally blindsided me until Doitsuyama pointed it out today. Maybe I'm just too ambivalent about the guy... (Just do not get it...) At any rate, I dare say he might even need 3 more wins to stay in the league considering there are as much as 5 Juryo rikishi knocking on the door... Edit: "he" being Kaiho in that last paragraph, that is. Edited September 18, 2003 by Asashosakari Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zentoryu 154 Posted September 18, 2003 Who the rikishi is doesn't have anything to do with it. Right? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kotoseiya Yuichi 3 Posted September 18, 2003 But I couldn't resist a little needling though... (all in good nature of course). :-D Ah, I knew it! :-D Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yubiquitoyama 4 Posted September 18, 2003 (edited) Who the rikishi is doesn't have anything to do with it. Right? :-) :-D :-D :-D Correct. But I'm talking about the closest possible situation where two (or more) rikishi end up matematically to exactly same banzuke position. In such case there are no objective (purely mathematical, that is) reasons to favour or disfavour any one of them. As the juryo demotion of a former ozeki is such a rare occurence, I think being merciful to him (once!) wouldn't be too big an injustice to someone else. If, however, he were to lose the maku-jiri position by just half a theoretical mai-me, out he goes and no hard feelings on my part anyway. I don't really think so. Even in those cases where it seems a dead tie between two rikishi, at least I haven't been able to see any favoritism on behalf of veterans, or newbies for that matter. They seem to get dumped about half of the time each simply... However, the Kyokai DOES tend to give veterans some leniency when choosing the torikumi. Veterans likely to quit if demoted tends to get more opponents with bad records and from lower divisions the last few days, as far as I have been able to tell. Edited September 18, 2003 by Yubiquitoyama Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kotoseiya Yuichi 3 Posted September 18, 2003 Even in those cases where it seems a dead tie between two rikishi, at least I haven't been able to see any favoritism on behalf of veterans, or newbies for that matter. Me neither but then again this is a former ozeki in danger of having to abandon his career and it's the first time I have witnessed this situation in my time as a sumo fan (unless my memory acts up again). I don't know whether you're referring to similar situations decades back or not. Since it's such a rare situation, I believe they just might be lenient for him in the closest of races for the maku-jiri position, should that occur after Sunday's bouts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 45,445 Posted September 18, 2003 [However, the Kyokai DOES tend to give veterans some leniency when choosing the torikumi. Veterans likely to quit if demoted tends to get more opponents with bad records and from lower divisions the last few days, as far as I have been able to tell. Well, day 13 and it's Shoes-on, 6-6, and definitely not some push-over..If anything, it seems he is getting a harder opponent tomorrow.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
