Kana, Kanji, and Romaji

[Kuroyama 715]

This was originally a reply on another thread, but it became radically off-topic so I'm posting it here instead.

I'm actually pretty sick of the standard PR taught answers of most sports stars these days. No point in watching them speak.

BTW, I watched サンデースポーツ on NHK/TVJapan this past Sunday when 白鵬 was on. He was very well spoken and it was nice to hear him speak when he wasn't out of breath and sweating profusely right after a match! They also replayed the match umpteen times and had several poster sized blow-ups of pictures taken during the match... but he was quite modest at all times.　　I bet the interview is online somewhere but I haven't had any luck finding it. I really should have recorded it myself...

Harry,

Any chance you can mention the rikishi you are writing about here? I don't understand those symbols. I would appreciate it if you would name him.

Thanks

philafuji

What symbols are you seeing? If you don't see サンデースポーツ as katakana (Sandee Supootsu, "Sunday Sports") and 白鵬 as the kanji for Hakuho then you need to install support for East Asian fonts. Otherwise, it's not difficult (but educational) to figure it out for yourself. There are lots of online resources for learning kana, and 白鵬 is easily identifiable via Google.

Not that I'm advocating that no one use romaji, but this doesn't seem that difficult to work around even if, like me, you have practically no Japanese.

The trouble I have with the technically correct romanization is that none of it is entirely satisfactory, and much of it isn't a lot more useful than the casual version. Just as an example, neither "oo" nor "ou" as normally used in English suggests a lengthened "o". One is a different vowel sound altogether and the other is usually a diphthong. Neither does "ee" suggest lengthened "e". The only one that really works is "ii", but this would confuse a Latin classicist accustomed to putting a slight glottal stop between the two "i"s (as I've heard it spoken) -- but who knows perfectly well that you lengthen vowels with a macron! On the other hand, the macron glosses over orthographic distinctions. Just to pick an example at random, both 刀 (read as とう, "tou") "sword" and 遠 (read as とお, "too") "distant" could be romanized "tō". I don't know Japanese well enough to know if they're pronounced differently.

On the one hand "Hakuhou" doesn't really tell us anything different about how the name is pronounced than "Hakuho" -- terminal vowels tend to be slightly lengthened in English anyway -- and can actually mislead the naive reader. On the other, we had an instance from the last banzuke where it made an important difference.

So I have no idea what my opinion should be on the subject.

[Asojima 2,870]

What symbols are you seeing?

......

So I have no idea what my opinion should be on the subject.

The problem is that probably 90% of the people who read this forum are not familiar with any of the Japanese writing systems. It is a common courtesy to take them into consideration when making general comments on the forum. It is not a matter of their not being able to display what you write. It is a problem of their not having a clue what you are trying to convey.

[Doitsuyama 1,173]

Any chance you can mention the rikishi you are writing about here? I don't understand those symbols. I would appreciate it if you would name him.

Thanks

philafuji

What symbols are you seeing? If you don't see サンデースポーツ as katakana (Sandee Supootsu, "Sunday Sports") and 白鵬 as the kanji for Hakuho then you need to install support for East Asian fonts. Otherwise, it's not difficult (but educational) to figure it out for yourself. There are lots of online resources for learning kana, and 白鵬 is easily identifiable via Google.

Hmm, not everyone can install those fonts, did you think about that? Missing user privileges (as well as missing user abilities) being a main reason, there might not even be a computer nowadays. I think Philafuji somewhere mentioned that he is basically surfing on Cable TV, not with a real computer. This may have changed for him meanwhile but the main problem still is that not everyone can install East Asian fonts.

[sekihiryu 51]

Katakana is an abomination and should be avoided at all costs - horrible nasty thing that it is. ;-)

Edited February 1, 2008 by sekihiryu

[Kuroyama 715]

Hmm, not everyone can install those fonts, did you think about that? Missing user privileges (as well as missing user abilities) being a main reason, there might not even be a computer nowadays. I think Philafuji somewhere mentioned that he is basically surfing on Cable TV, not with a real computer. This may have changed for him meanwhile but the main problem still is that not everyone can install East Asian fonts.

User privileges should never be a problem with a home computer, and it's at least mildly naughty to be reading this forum at work, no?

It's true that anyone visiting here without a real computer may have a problem. On the other hand, what can the folks who supply such browser platforms be thinking? It's a UTF-8 world out there these days.

The problem is that probably 90% of the people who read this forum are not familiar with any of the Japanese writing systems. It is a common courtesy to take them into consideration when making general comments on the forum. It is not a matter of their not being able to display what you write. It is a problem of their not having a clue what you are trying to convey.

True. But I'm not familiar with Japanese writing either. Even at this point I only recognize a handful of kana and a few kanji. But isn't the going a bit easier if you're trying to follow ozumo if you are familiar with it?

You snipped out the middle of my post as if you were responding to the whole thing, but most of it was about which transliteration system was preferable and you didn't comment on that at all.

Edited February 1, 2008 by Kuroyama

[Doitsuyama 1,173]

Hmm, not everyone can install those fonts, did you think about that? Missing user privileges (as well as missing user abilities) being a main reason, there might not even be a computer nowadays. I think Philafuji somewhere mentioned that he is basically surfing on Cable TV, not with a real computer. This may have changed for him meanwhile but the main problem still is that not everyone can install East Asian fonts.

User privileges should never be a problem with a home computer, and it's at least mildly naughty to be reading this forum at work, no?

It's true that anyone visiting here without a real computer may have a problem. On the other hand, what can the folks who supply such browser platforms be thinking? It's a UTF-8 world out there these days.

More phantasy please. My line of thinking was more along internet caf

[Harry 67]

Hmm, not everyone can install those fonts, did you think about that? Missing user privileges (as well as missing user abilities) being a main reason, there might not even be a computer nowadays. I think Philafuji somewhere mentioned that he is basically surfing on Cable TV, not with a real computer. This may have changed for him meanwhile but the main problem still is that not everyone can install East Asian fonts.

User privileges should never be a problem with a home computer, and it's at least mildly naughty to be reading this forum at work, no?

It's true that anyone visiting here without a real computer may have a problem. On the other hand, what can the folks who supply such browser platforms be thinking? It's a UTF-8 world out there these days.

More phantasy please. My line of thinking was more along internet caf

[Asojima 2,870]

You snipped out the middle of my post as if you were responding to the whole thing, but most of it was about which transliteration system was preferable and you didn't comment on that at all.

I snipped out the middle because it does not apply to the basic question. Readers who do not know kanji, hiragana or katakana have a problem comprehending posts where these systems are used for key words in the post. Most of them can fight their way through what ever romanization system is used. They have a deep interest in sumo, but have only a limited interest, capability or opportunity in acquiring Japanese language skills. The content of the original post was obviously of interest to Phil, but the key components of the post was hidden from him because he is unfamiliar with kata and kanji.

It is somewhat elitist to expect that everyone with an interest in sumo should also have an interest in the Japanese language. My point is that we should respect our readers when we do our posts. They come from a wide variety of cultures and have a wide variety of linguistic abilities.

I will now get down off my soap box.

[Kuroyama 715]

And I just have to mention that it's funny you think of an UTF-8 world when the majority of Japanese web sites is coded in Shift-JIS...

If all you want to support is Japanese, Shift-JIS is fine. (Although I note the NSK site is EUC-JP.) There are, however, numerous other writing systems out there and without something like Unicode it's impossible to represent more than one on a single webpage. If you want to represent, say, both Japanese and Mongolian at the same time using the local systems for each, you can't do it with either Shift-JIS or EUC-JP. I did say "world".

[Kuroyama 715]

I snipped out the middle because it does not apply to the basic question.

I started the thread. It was my question, so please don't tell me which part of it is "basic". My last line about my opinion had to do strictly with romaji, and really is what I was interested in.

It is somewhat elitist to expect that everyone with an interest in sumo should also have an interest in the Japanese language. My point is that we should respect our readers when we do our posts. They come from a wide variety of cultures and have a wide variety of linguistic abilities.

I will now get down off my soap box.

This is odd considering the amount of unnecessary Japanese used around here. "Aite" for "opponent"; "torikumi" for "bout"; "shusshin" for where a rikishi is from. I enjoy it, but that doesn't mean I don't have trouble myself remembering which is which among gino-sho, kanto-sho, and shukun-sho. But only Japanese script gets criticized. Go figure.

[Asashosakari 18,786]

This is odd considering the amount of unnecessary Japanese used around here. "Aite" for "opponent"; "torikumi" for "bout"; "shusshin" for where a rikishi is from. I enjoy it, but that doesn't mean I don't have trouble myself remembering which is which among gino-sho, kanto-sho, and shukun-sho. But only Japanese script gets criticized. Go figure.

You don't see any significant difference between limited, subject-specific jargon (however incomprehensible it may be for the "uninitiated") and entire writing systems that are unfamiliar/unknown to people? Really?

[Asojima 2,870]

This is odd considering the amount of unnecessary Japanese used around here. "Aite" for "opponent"; "torikumi" for "bout"; "shusshin" for where a rikishi is from. I enjoy it, but that doesn't mean I don't have trouble myself remembering which is which among gino-sho, kanto-sho, and shukun-sho. But only Japanese script gets criticized. Go figure.

From the forum's own Sumo Glossary:

aite, opponent in a torikumi; aite in Japanese doesn't refer solely to opponent/enemy as it is used in context of sharing something; for example hanashi-aite (the one you converse with), kekkon-aite (the one you are married to)

torikumi, sumo bout, also used inaccurately for the program of whole tournament day, see torikumi-hyo, taisen seiseki

shusshin-chi, rikishi's official home prefecture which can be almost any prefecture irrespective of his real childhood home, see honseki(-ti), koseki

gino-sho, technique award, the most prestigious sansho award bestowed on senshuraku to the most technically able rikishi who managed most clearly to impose his aite to utilize fighting styles most suitable for him to counteract; often not

kanto-sho, fighting spirit award, sansho award bestowed on senshuraku to the most tenacious rikishi who managed most clearly to make the most out of his abilities, see shukun-sho, gino-sho

shukun-sho, outstanding performance award, one of the sansho prizes granted on senshuraku; usually given to rikishi who has beaten yokozuna or the winner of the honbasho and has himself been close to achieving yusho; lower ranked rikishi can also get shukun-sho even without facing the yokozuna or even ozeki if he in other way shows superior sumo compared to level usually expected from a rikishi of his rank, see sansho, kanto-sho, gino-sho

For the newbie, there is a source available to get familiar with the romaji terms commonly used in the posts. For the non-linguist who is unfamiliar with radicals, kanji structure or kana, there is no readily available source. Have you ever tried to make sense out of a Babelfished news article?

[Harry 67]

In fact, aite (相手) without context is difficult to translate as it may mean the other person, companion, partner, opponent or mate. Oozumou no aite (大相撲の相手) however I would always translate as grand sumo opponent.

Torikumi which means wrestling or grappling comes from torikumu (取り組む） which literally is the compound verb to wrestle or grapple made up of tori from toru to take hold of and kumi from kumu which means to interlink. Take hold of and interlink limbs makes perfect sense as a way to describe wrestling (who can tell me the etymology of 'wrestling'?).

Honestly I don't know how people can memorize the entire kimarite (決まり手) list simply as jargon terms! It seems much simpler to me to remember the few verbs and body parts they use and put them together than to remember them all individually.

[Sasanishiki 57]

Honestly I don't know how people can memorize the entire kimarite (決まり手) list simply as jargon terms! It seems much simpler to me to remember the few verbs and body parts they use and put them together than to remember them all individually.

People may well be (and probably are) remembering the kimarite by the verbs and their components. As you say, it is far easier to remember them that way by having groups, such as yori-, oshi-, and -nage. However, knowing the verbs and remembering the kimarite does not mean that you have to be able to read Japanese script. Yes, it helps but coming back to a point of discussion here, reading Japanese is not entirely necessary to have a strong understanding and comprehension of sumo.

[Harry 67]

Honestly I don't know how people can memorize the entire kimarite (決まり手) list simply as jargon terms! It seems much simpler to me to remember the few verbs and body parts they use and put them together than to remember them all individually.

People may well be (and probably are) remembering the kimarite by the verbs and their components. As you say, it is far easier to remember them that way by having groups, such as yori-, oshi-, and -nage. However, knowing the verbs and remembering the kimarite does not mean that you have to be able to read Japanese script. Yes, it helps but coming back to a point of discussion here, reading Japanese is not entirely necessary to have a strong understanding and comprehension of sumo.

I would turn that around, however and say if you figure out from the kimarite that 'nage' is a throw then you've just taught yourself some Japanese...

[Asashosakari 18,786]

Honestly I don't know how people can memorize the entire kimarite (決まり手) list simply as jargon terms! It seems much simpler to me to remember the few verbs and body parts they use and put them together than to remember them all individually.

Sure, and at further risk to my sumo credibility (as though that pro-wrestling comparison the other day wasn't bad enough...) - plenty of kimarite are sufficiently rare that somebody like me who has watched sumo for 10+ years but isn't exactly a kimarite buff still needs to look them up when I encounter them. But the point is that I can recognize something like "ushiromotare" as a kimarite even if some context is missing (since I've encountered it before), even if I don't exactly know what it means, and I can easily figure out where to look it up - while encountering 後ろもたれ would leave me completely lost until I run to the nearest online translator/dictionary. And then I'd still have to hit the kimarite list to actually understand it.

And that's the problem with using Japanese script; 90+% of the forum population is accustomed to reading and thinking about sumo in Latin letters. Excess usage of "unnecessary Japanese words" as Kuroyama put it may be an accurate description of the forum sometimes, but it totally misses the mark as far as the issue of kanji and kana goes.

[Fukurou 534]

I would turn that around, however and say if you figure out from the kimarite that 'nage' is a throw then you've just taught yourself some Japanese...

I know the difference between sakana and sakura, but not in kanji. Knowing what a term means in spoken Japanese or romaji or kana is one thing. Even being able to recognize it in kanji is something else.

Know how I do those lists of which rikishi are in or out of a tournament? I read the *kana* versions of the shikona that the NSK conveniently provides on their various lists (banzuke, daily schedule, results) on the Japanese side of their site.

[Asojima 2,870]

I know the difference between sakana and sakura, but not in kanji. Knowing what a term means in spoken Japanese or romaji or kana is one thing. Even being able to recognize it in kanji is something else.

Know how I do those lists of which rikishi are in or out of a tournament? I read the *kana* versions of the shikona that the NSK conveniently provides on their various lists (banzuke, daily schedule, results) on the Japanese side of their site.

I come in from the opposite direction. Fortunately, I started with a rudimentary knowlege of Chinese, so I could recognize a lot of the kanji, but didn't have a clue how they were pronounced in Japanese. I knew that 魚 is a fish, but did not know it is a "sakana". While in Japan, I learned some "pidgin Japanese" , but not enough to be very fluent. Hiragana was essentially useless to me because I did not speak the language, and,to this day, I still do not know it. ;-) Katakana was great, because most of the words written in kata were English.

Now, when I go for my pic's, I scan the sites for kanji that I recognize as shikona or sumo-related terms. I can recognize that news articles are sumo-related, but have to rely on translator software to figure out what the article might be about.

My limited knowlege of kanji lets me navigate the Japanese side of the NSK site with a big help from Doit's banzuke listings and Naganoyama's torikumi listings. I rely on being able to decipher the rank and then cross-reference to the name.

[Harry 67]

I would turn that around, however and say if you figure out from the kimarite that 'nage' is a throw then you've just taught yourself some Japanese...

I know the difference between sakana and sakura, but not in kanji. Knowing what a term means in spoken Japanese or romaji or kana is one thing. Even being able to recognize it in kanji is something else.

Know how I do those lists of which rikishi are in or out of a tournament? I read the *kana* versions of the shikona that the NSK conveniently provides on their various lists (banzuke, daily schedule, results) on the Japanese side of their site.

The kanji for sakura cherry tree 桜 and fish sakana 魚 look very different and in fact look quite a bit like the cherry tree (note the 木 tree to the left of the blossom) and the fish. For someone like me who reads more than he listens and speaks the kanji often is more recognizable than the spoken words (especially since many homophones are only differentiable via context or kanji).

Names of people and places are notoriously difficult for even Japanese people to read! Shikona can be especially so until you know the rules. In fact, it is impossible to know for sure the pronunciation of some names unless you hear them or see their kana reading but once you've seen or heard them once you'll know. That's why the banzuke and other places intended for Japanese people also includes kana representations.

It looks hard as there are thousands of characters but in fact names in general and shikona in particular seem to draw from a more limited, traditional set. Some examples, 例えば：

白鵬 is easy and Hakuhou is the only way I'd say it. 白 means white and is easy to read.　鵬 is a rare one, means a big mythical bird but the bird part at least is easy to see from 鳥. So Hakuhou is a big white mythical bird (white ootori). His given name is 翔 or Shou which means to soar so he is the soaring white ootori.

朝青龍 is easier in some ways. Asa is 朝 which is morning, shou is 青 which is blue/green (confusingly in Japanese the color of the sky and green traffic lights) and ryuu is 龍 which is easy to remember as it is dragon (alternate kanji which you can see as a dragon 竜) so he is the morning green dragon, Asashouryuu. His personal name is 明徳, 明 for clear and 徳 for virtue which would normally be pronounced Meitoku for illustrious virtue but here he uses Akinori where 明 is Aki but nori must be from 憲 which is similar (law) so he is the green morning dragon of illustrious virtue.

千代大海 is 千 for chi (thousand), 代 for yo (generation), 大 for tai (big), 海 for kai (ocean), thousand generation big ocean, Chiyotaikai. His first name is 龍二 where you'll recognize the first one as the dragon character which ends Asashouryuu. The second character is two lines for two, here pronounced ji for Ryuuji.

琴光喜 啓司 is from 琴 koto or harp, 光 mitsu for bright, 喜 ki for rejoice or the bright rejoicing harp and 啓 kei for say and 司 ji for official, Kotomitsuki Keiji.

魁皇 is 魁 kai which is lead charging and 皇 ou for emperor for the lead charging emperor. 博之 is usually haku but is hiro in this case for broad/extensive and 之 yuki for go is Hiroyuki.

安美錦 竜児 is 安 a peaceful, 美 bi (rendaku changed to mi) beautiful, 錦 nishiki brocade (fabric) for a peaceful, beautiful brocade and 竜 ryuu dragon again and 児 ji child for Aminishiki Ryuuji or Dragon child peaceful beautiful brocade.

安馬公平　is 安　a peaceful again 馬 ma horse 公 kou fair 平 hei level which is just, Ama Kouhei the just peaceful horse.

So it isn't easy but I find it much easier to quickly recognize the kanji on the screen than the romaji or hiragana.

[Fukurou 534]

My limited knowlege of kanji lets me navigate the Japanese side of the NSK site with a big help from Doit's banzuke listings and Naganoyama's torikumi listings. I rely on being able to decipher the rank and then cross-reference to the name.

When I'm navigating unknown territory on the Japanses side of the NSK site, I put my cursor on a link and look at the URL that comes up on the bottom of the window. The URL will include either English (tickets) or romaji (intai) to clue me in as to where I'm going. (my browser has worked this way for so long, I don't even know if that's default activity or some setting I turned on).

[Gusoyama 95]

I REALLY enjoy seeing the kanji and kana, but they're useless to me for the most part unless they're accompanied by the romaji. The few kanji and kana I've learned have been through sumo, and have been great to use, and to recognize. But to have them exclusively is tedious in my mind.

01001001 01110100 00100000 01110111 01101111 01110101 01101100 01100100 00100000 01100010 01100101 00100000 01101100 01101001 01101011 01100101 00100000 01101001 01100110 00100000 01001001 00100000 01110111 01100001 01110011 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01110000 01101111 01110011 01110100 00100000 01101001 01101110 00100000 01100010 01101001 01101110 01100001 01110010 01111001 00101110 00100000 00001101 00001010

Sure, you can see that the 9th and 12th groupings are the same, but for the most part, that is unreadable to nearly everyone in this forum. I enjoyed Harry's explanation of the symbols, but I get annoyed when people either a)post only in symbols, or b)put them in for key words. Asojima and Asashosakari put it best.

Edited February 4, 2008 by Gusoyama

[Harry 67]

In an old skool software developer so binary, octal, hex, kanji, romaji or english are all fine with me but I will try to limit my use of kanji to this Japanese forum.

[Fukurou 534]

In an old skool software developer so binary, octal, hex, kanji, romaji or english are all fine with me but I will try to limit my use of kanji to this Japanese forum.

Harry, I also enjoyed reading your explanation about all those kanji. You're lucky, in that you've had time, opportunity, and motivation to learn them. (Bow...)

[Harry 67]

I'm just glad I get to use Japanese at work (my co-workers think I'm crazy and are very glad to shovel anything related to Japan my way). I was interested in Japanese stuff for a long time and tried to teach myself just in my spare time but it went essentially nowhere until I had to use it daily at work. Time and exposure is what you need to learn it and I'm am grateful for the opportunity to do so.

Oh, BTW I was watching MUSIC STATION on NHK and the top song this week (at least in her category) was "snow tears" by 中川 翔子. Her given name is 翔子 or Shouko which is essentially the female version of Hakuhou's first name Shou. 'Ko' means "little one" or "child" so that is often a clue that the person is a girl though there are other suffixes in use as well. She truly has soared so her parents' wish in naming her seems to have come true.

http://www.mtvtop.net/html1/39678.htm

Video:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x40t4h_na...now-tears_music

Her official page:

http://www.shokotan.jp/index.html

[Edit: added more links]

Edited February 5, 2008 by Harry

[Kuroyama 715]

You don't see any significant difference between limited, subject-specific jargon (however incomprehensible it may be for the "uninitiated") and entire writing systems that are unfamiliar/unknown to people? Really?

You'll have to forgive me for responding to what you wrote rather than what you were thinking. However: No. For example, it makes little difference to write either 上手投げ or "uwatenage" when neither are understood. The term isn't self-explanatory unless you already know Japanese, and you can't even pronounce the romaji correctly in your head unless you have at least some knowledge of Japanese phonology.

Edit: I see I didn't correctly follow who was commenting on what. Asashosakari was not the author of the post that prompted this fork of the discussion. My apologies.

plenty of kimarite are sufficiently rare that somebody like me who has watched sumo for 10+ years but isn't exactly a kimarite buff still needs to look them up when I encounter them.

Not at all. There was that one video posted somewhere a while ago when the kimarite in a Juryo bout was so off the wall that the announcer gyoji couldn't figure out what to call it. The camera focused on them for a while as they talked it over, and you could see them poring over what must have been a cheat sheet.

This is odd considering the amount of unnecessary Japanese used around here. "Aite" for "opponent"; "torikumi" for "bout"; "shusshin" for where a rikishi is from. I enjoy it, but that doesn't mean I don't have trouble myself remembering which is which among gino-sho, kanto-sho, and shukun-sho. But only Japanese script gets criticized. Go figure.

From the forum's own Sumo Glossary:

Yes, I know they're in the glossary. This is actually a good argument for making something similar for common sumo-related terms in Japanese script, not for avoiding it altogether. Ordering might be an issue, but it's easy enough to locate a term by a copy-paste into the search window. For that matter, why isn't it included in the version of the glossary linked from the forum? I can Google a different version with a number of display options including kanji/kana. Is this someone work in progress?

Edited February 7, 2008 by Kuroyama