Kana, Kanji, and Romaji

[Anjoboshi 2]

This suggestion is addressed to those who really would like to use kana and kanji in their postings:

What speaks against using kanji and kana for the important key words as an addition in parenthesis after using the (for most forum users) familiar romaji form. For example: "The new banzuke (kanji) was released today."

I know that this solution doesn't tackle the question of principle "romaji or kanji" and even means additional work but since it would be voluntary anyway this way to handle the problem would have the benefit of a) using the Japanese characters, b) making sure everyone can read and follow the postings and c) helping others to improve their knowledge.

[aderechelsea 124]

This suggestion is addressed to those who really would like to use kana and kanji in their postings:

What speaks against using kanji and kana for the important key words as an addition in parenthesis after using the (for most forum users) familiar romaji form. For example: "The new banzuke (kanji) was released today."

I know that this solution doesn't tackle the question of principle "romaji or kanji" and even means additional work but since it would be voluntary anyway this way to handle the problem would have the benefit of a) using the Japanese characters, b) making sure everyone can read and follow the postings and c) helping others to improve their knowledge.

best post in this topic ... simple and helpful.

[Kuroyama 715]

First of all, you cannot expect that people always discuss the stuff you want to have discussed, particularly not if you throw snippets into discussion that provoke a stronger reaction. I have a hard time swallowing your frequent claims of how incredibly easy it is to pick up Japanese characters, or that it is such an important thing that Japanese names are pronounced properly. Given such adamant assumptions, maybe some of your well-meant intentions to create "learning opportunities" came across as patronizing.

You must be mixing me up with someone else. I never said any such things. Rather, I've said repeatedly that I have no Japanese to speak of. I'm hardly in any position to "create 'learning opportunties'" and I don't post in kanji myself unless, as in this instance, it's relevant per se. I like it for my own instruction, and I imagine others might too. If that's patronizing, so be it.

Anyway, since the point you wanted to talk about was romanization, the lack of response to those parts of your original post might have three reasons I can think of: a) Many readers couldn't care less about proper pronunciation (and therefore, "proper" romanization); b) the difficulties that you've named were made from an Anglo-centric perspective, and that might not be totally representative of our community. To take an example, you said that "Hakuhoo" with a long vowel is a difficult concept for an English speaker because he or she might be inclined to rhyme Hakuhoo with ballyhoo. However, for me as a German, "oo" is just that - a long "o". So no problem there...; c) If there is any language that were in need of some rules for pronunciation, it would probably be English. Therefore it is a little odd (for me at least) to make such a fuss about different romanizations of Japanese. Would you also suggest that the English word "through" should be spelled "thru" so that nobody thinks that it rhymes with "dough" or "tough"?

I didn't use "Hakuho" to illustrate the point you discuss, but the exact opposite. I said that since English speakers (American English, anyway) tend to lengthen final vowels, marking the length of the "o" in "Hakuho" is superfluous, more or less.

And I wouldn't have used it as you have it because it's wrong. When 白鵬 is written in kana (はくほう) the "o" is lengthened with う (u), not お (o). It should be "Hakuhou". But this spelling also raises a pronunciation problem in English. How does it sound in German?

I have no idea if it makes a difference in Japanese. In my original post I used the example of 刀 (read as とう, "tou") "sword" and 遠 (read as とお, "too") "distant". Are these pronounced differently?

I tend to be old fashioned about English orthography. Actually, there are many people who'd prefer "thru", and that spelling is widely used in American advertising. I like traditional spellings as they usually preserve etymological relationships better and can therefore be an aid to comprehension, even if they're less helpful with pronunciation. However, to use a more analogous example, I would never dream of Japanifying "through" as スロウグヘ. (Or whatever. It's not possible to represent "gh" in kana AFAIK.) The correct transliteration is more like スルー (at a guess; I don't really know.) The other doesn't convey even an approximation of the word.

Perhaps part of the trouble is that what is meant in English by "long" and "short" vowels is not the same as most everywhere else, at least as the terms are taught to schoolchildren. English "long vowels" are really diphthongs, with the exception of "e" which has the same value most places assign to "i". The "short vowels" have the usual values but shifted front and/or raised. Actual vowel length isn't explicitly represented in orthography at all. "Bat" has a short "a" and "bad" has it long, but the only way you'd know from the spelling is if you'd studied English phonology and know that vowels tend to be short before unvoiced consonants and long before voiced. It's because English speakers are unaccustomed to seeing length represented that it tends to confuse where it does appear, and knowing better doesn't necessarily help. Even though I know that in "Kaiou" the "u" merely serves to lengthen the "o", I reflexively want to pronounce the "ou" as in "through" and have to consciously correct myself every time I see something like it.

Edited February 8, 2008 by Kuroyama

[Harry 67]

スルー is correct for the カタカナ of through.

Many doubled vowels have a break in them like とおい and きいて though おいしい has a long sound on the end, no break... when they speak fast it is hard for me to hear the difference between おかし and おかしい and きて、きって and きいて。

[kaiguma 0]

There are a few sneaky hiragana that look similar and it can take a while to see the little tails that differentiate る and ろ and め and ぬ etc. but really there are just 46 symbols (not including the 2 obsolete characters, and the variants with diacritical marks and the 'y' variants). If you start with them instead of having to unlearn romaji I really think you can learn to recognized them in an afternoon. Learning to write them legibly (and read messy handwriting) takes longer of course but most people just type these days.

You seem very oblivious to what so many people have stated clearly. Virtually no one (who begins their linguistic existence in Roman script) can spend an afternoon studying hiragana and walk away and read it phonetically off of the computer screen as well as they can romaji. Period, end of story. It's not possible. therefore it is not exactly a trivial matter. It would require someone to dedicate quite a bit of time over the long run, and constant reinforcement to retain the ability. Why do you keep bringing this argument into circles? I know you said you're done but....

BTW, I don't believe Asians are somehow genetically predisposed to better learning of ideographic languages, they are just exposed to it more. A bit of experience in looking at kanji is all it takes to start seeing them as more than just scribbles. The main thing, if not the only thing, that you need is a will and an interest to do it. If you think you can't do it and/or aren't interested in it, then you won't learn it.

Seems directed at my point on visual vs/ verbal learning, specifically the term 'pictographic,' which you have identified more precisely. For the record, I never spoke a word about Asians here. I specifically said "among Westerners..." we can simplify the learning styles as a verbal/visual split. Now, having learned ideographic language over many generations, it can be argued that Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, and a few others may have genetic disposition towards learning ideographic written language. But obviously many other Asian Cultures use purely phonetic text, so I'm not sure where you are going with this. Obviously, if a verbal-learning style Westerner put his/her mind to it, Kanji could be mastered eventually with an increasing learning curve. I never said it was impossible, perhaps just not as easy as you imagine.

I agree that it is an interesting tidbit to know that the first kanji of "rikishi" is the same character as the first kanji of "chikaramizu". But I still fail to see why this helps me to understand Japanese language. So where is the practical use? Knowing the compounds of words doesn't seem a good strategy to rely on if you want to understand what was said. The combination of "power" and "water" could mean many things to someone as clueless as me. For all intents and purposes, besides the two meanings you have provided, the "power-water" combo could stand for the Japanese equivalent of Poseidon, for alcohol, or for strangury. I assume that for the same reason Babelfish translations are so weird - the Babelfish translator seems to have exactly the knowledge of Japanese you'd like to advocate. It knows all the compounds and strings them together. But it usually doesn't help me to extract the meaning.

On this point alone I have to agree with Harry's sentiment. The deeper meaning, below the face value you get in a Jaoanese-English(?) dictionary, is often right in front of you in the Chinese ideograph. Without knowing the kanji, you would never know that the first character of rikishi is strength. That is more than just an interesting tidbit. It is an essential aspect of what the rikishi is meant to be. Simply taking rikishi to mean 'wrestler' or 'strong man' is missing an enormous part of the deeper meaning. Another root of this form of 'ri' can also mean power, which has a subtle difference from strength. The second character 士 does not actually mean 'man', but is a fairly complex superlative form denoting an elite warrior or prestige class within feudal society. Literal meaning of the isolated kanji is 'samurai.' It denotes someone in a position to guard honor, or in control of their charge. So besides wrestler and string man, rikishi also evokes an array of images including: 'power warrior' 'guard of power' (as in someone who guards a special power), 'wielder of force', and it is even a simple root of 'grip' (n). The conscious understanding of 力士 to the native Japanese speaker is certainly 'sumo wrestler' but they will also carry with it this array of subconscious meanings from the etymology. The more learned will be more aware of these connections, just as in any other language.

Since kanji's roots are soooo much older than the cohesive identities of Modern-day Roman-script languages, and the original essential meaning is often captured graphically, it is much more accessible than our vague and fuzzy grasp of etymology. The deepest origin of nearly any Kanji can often be traced back to ancient poems and philosophical texts which were hand-written in religious documents and on hanging scrolls. And of course the origins of the Chinese meanings are traceable even further. It's sometimes hard for me to specifically answer the question "where's the practical use?" but I myself find it very practical to better understand how meaning is formed in a given culture. It increases my flexibility in using the language, and brings my understanding slowly closer to that of a native-speaker. Even if it is a goal that cannot actually be reached.

Sorry, end of spiel :-)

[Harry 67]

Sounds like the only way to settle the hiragana learning time question would be to teach someone do it. Anyone who knows no hiragana but wants to learn and has three hours to burn sometime, please PM or IM me. No joke, serious takers only, must be really interested and willing to put in a solid three hours! Also must have a webcam and MSN or Skype set up to use it for handwriting practice.

Edited February 8, 2008 by Harry

[Bealzbob 0]

Just read this from start to finish. Very interesting. From my point of view I have absolutely no knowledge of kanji and I'm one of those people who gets instantly lost as soon as a kanji character appears (although I can turn on my 'rikaichan' plug-in for Firefox). I can see both points of view to be honest.

On the one hand it is correct to say that people come on here to talk sumo and not to learn Japanese. But on the other hand it is incorrect and improper to suggest that there will be no-one on here interested in learning kanji or teaching it (by including both types).

My personal preference is to see both the roma(n?)ji and the kanji in brackets beside it. For those willing to do this I thank you because as a sumo fan I am naturally (as a side project) interested in kanji although sumo is the ONLY opportunity I get to learn it.

When I come across a post with predominantly kanji inside it, I just move on. I don't get 'uppity' and cranky about some elitist clique. It's just (lucky) people talking in a way I'd like to be able to. Nothing more. Sometimes I have a rikaichan-inspired stab at understanding it. Sometimes I don't. But I certainly appreciate when those who are typing it put the jargon beside it too.

As an aside. From reading this thread I can now recognise Hakuho's kanji :D The system works !

[Hashira 0]

I have a hard time swallowing your frequent claims of how incredibly easy it is to pick up Japanese characters

You should go to Roppongi (六本木). There you will find all kinds of easy to pick up characters (Chucking salt...)

...and who do not have a hard time swallowing...

[Jonosuke 28]

I have no idea if it makes a difference in Japanese. In my original post I used the example of 刀 (read as とう, "tou") "sword" and 遠 (read as とお, "too") "distant". Are these pronounced differently?

I am not here to provide any inspired thought to this discussion but the above two, they are pronouced strictly differently as the former does not distinct "Oh" sound while the latter does.

Speaking of this "Toh" subject, there is an interesting bit about Hakkaku Beya oyakata. For those who may not know the current Hakkaku oyakata is former yokozuna HokuTOumi, not HokuTOUumi. Aside for having two Us together making the pronounciabion difficult, there is a famous story behind it.

The yokozuna's name is written in kanji by 北勝海 and normarlly the middle kanji 勝, meaning a win or victory as in "KACHI-koshi" is pronounced as "Tou". However initially the former yokozuna selected the shikona from a place in Hokkaido called Hoku-Toh-Umi written in kanji as 北十海, the middle kanji Jyu meaning 10.

But as you know the sumo world being the one of superstition, they did not want to use "10 " as they did not want to have him ended up or just satisfied with 10 wins. So they changed "十 " to "勝" but kept the pronouciation. So he was not Hoku-Tou-Umi but Hoku-To-Umi.