Harry 67 Posted February 7, 2008 I found the same link and asked in another topic what its about. I certainly vote for that one to become the main one, if possible. It makes my intended cheat sheet, well, pretty much done other than filling out the kimarite and EXPLAINING the kanji instead of just listing them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ragerkawa 0 Posted February 7, 2008 You don't see any significant difference between limited, subject-specific jargon (however incomprehensible it may be for the "uninitiated") and entire writing systems that are unfamiliar/unknown to people? Really? You'll have to forgive me for responding to what you wrote rather than what you were thinking. However: No. For example, it makes little difference to write either 上手投げ or "uwatenage" when neither are understood. The term isn't self-explanatory unless you already know Japanese, and you can't even pronounce the romaji correctly in your head unless you have at least some knowledge of Japanese phonology. I don't know anything about Japanese writing systems, and I think it makes a huge difference. I may not be able to pronounce "uwatenage" correctly in my head, but I can pronounce it. I can't pronounce 上手投げ at all, nor can I remember it without significant effort. I also can't see relationships between different Japanese words if they are not written in romanji. In the years I have been following sumo, I have easily, without any special effort, picked up many of the Japanese terms that are used here, just as I have picked up the special vocabulary of many other fields. Were they written in Kana or Kanji, I would never have been able to do so. (And don't think that this is because I am a linguistically challenged American. I speak four languages and read a couple more. I have neither the time nor the inclination to add Japanese at this point. There are several others I would like to learn first.) I appreciate people's desire to use Kana and Kanji. It must be fun if you can do it. So do it, just toss the romanji in as well. ragerkawa Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kaiguma 0 Posted February 7, 2008 (edited) You don't see any significant difference between limited, subject-specific jargon (however incomprehensible it may be for the "uninitiated") and entire writing systems that are unfamiliar/unknown to people? Really? You'll have to forgive me for responding to what you wrote rather than what you were thinking. However: No. For example, it makes little difference to write either 上手投げ or "uwatenage" when neither are understood. The term isn't self-explanatory unless you already know Japanese, and you can't even pronounce the romaji correctly in your head unless you have at least some knowledge of Japanese phonology. I really try to limit comments that may come off as a bit harsh, but sometimes I feel so inclined. So don't take this personally... The way you hang onto this argument shows only one thing. You are being boneheaded. No one is trying to take away your right to post in Kana, Katakana, Hiragana, Kanji, Arabic, Cyrillic, or Pig Latin. There just seems to be a consensus that you should always include the english or romaji version whenever you do so. This is a non-issue and it's very odd that you press it so. It's also causing you to lose faulty logic, which is always disappointing from someone who has up until now appeared intelligent. In the bold portion above you must be intentionally disregarding the obvious fact that one of them is more easily learned than the other for roughly 90% of members. The uninitiated (in both Japanese language and sumo jargon) will learn what is the uwatenage much more quickly if we supply it in romaji. Ragerkawa's reply sums it all up very nicely as well. Edited February 7, 2008 by kaiguma Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kuroyama 715 Posted February 7, 2008 (edited) At this point it's more an academic argument than anything else. For my part I never said not to use romaji or even that one should not use romaji. I was explicit about that in my original post. All I mean to say is that it's not that hard to figure it out for yourself -- assuming, of course, that you can see the characters correctly in the first place. Yes, romaji is probably easier to remember -- but please remember that I'm also writing from the perspective of someone who himself has no Japanese to speak of and generally can't read kanji either. Nor do I generally post anything in Japanese script. What I'm really advocating is to treat those instances of it here as a learning opportunity and not an occasion for complaint. Assuming, again, that the text appears as intended. I admit to being unable to fathom interest in ozumo combined with no interest in the Japanese language, although I don't disbelieve anyone who says this is the case for them. The two don't appear separable to me. What's a tad disappointing is that everyone jumped on the portion of my post over which the loudest argument was possible, while the part I really wanted to talk about was totally ignored. (Although a healthy argument can and probably has erupted over it. I was hoping for a quieter discussion on the merits.) All I said was that figuring it out is "not difficult." Edited February 7, 2008 by Kuroyama Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harry 67 Posted February 7, 2008 Unfortunately, it seems that ilovesumo is right. Those who want to know about Japanese writing are probably into it already. The rest just want romaji. 残念。。。 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gusoyama 103 Posted February 7, 2008 Unfortunately, it seems that ilovesumo is right. Those who want to know about Japanese writing are probably into it already. The rest just want romaji. 残念。。。 (Neener, neener...) This is the elitist snob bullcrap that I'm talking about. I want to know about Japanese writing, but I need romaji for the transition. I am VERY slowly learning some characters, and I thought that your explanation of the various rikishi names was wonderful, educational, and informative. Statements like the above are the exact opposite. I'm sorry that those of us without the time that you, ils, kuroyama and others have are so inferior. I looked up 残念, and found out that it means "Unfortunately". I think. But will i remember that next time I see that combo? No. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kaiguma 0 Posted February 7, 2008 What's a tad disappointing is that everyone jumped on the portion of my post over which the loudest argument was possible, while the part I really wanted to talk about was totally ignored. (Although a healthy argument can and probably has erupted over it. I was hoping for a quieter discussion on the merits.) All I said was that figuring it out is "not difficult." Then I apologize for being one of those to jump. I try not to anymore. Your primary point then is well received by me - I totally agree on a personal level. But there are still 2 valid counterarguments. 1) "not difficult" is way too subjective. Believe it or not, psychological or genuinely mental, some people have a huge linguistic wall when it comes to pictographic language. And yes, katakana and hiragana are closely derived from a pictographic source as well even though they may not be purely so. It is widely theorized that among Western people, the intrinsically visual (as opposed to verbal) are better equipped to learn Chinese-based writing. Verbal types are obviously more inclined to learn foreign speech. (Not to simplify; there are clearly many more learning types and all of the grey areas between.) 2) not everyone wants to figure it out. If your point had been that clear-cut though I never would have argued against it. It is more or less an opinion. What I was feeling was a strong sense you believe forumers should want to figure it out. Don;t be surprised if some will disagree. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harry 67 Posted February 7, 2008 I'm sorry, I just hoped there would be more interest shown in it. I regret that more interest was not shown, which is why I wrote zannen. Always writing 残念(ざんねん、zannen, regret) probably won't help you learn it either unless you want to learn it. This is not an elitist attitude. Anyone can do what I'm doing. It really is tough because of all the readings, many for the same character and they only go together one way with the right meaning. Once you get a little further into it you'll see why it is a bit misleading to give the romaji. For instance, the water the ozumo's drink, the "power water" is 力水, chikaramizu or power and water. But their kanji for hydroelectric power is 水力. So, do you think that word is mizuchikara in romaji? If you did, sorry but it is actually suiryoku. So, it is more complicated than learning a single reading to a character. Another example from sumo is Ozeki 大関 and Sekitori 関取. If you look closely you'll see that the second character of Oozeki is the same as the first character of Sekitori but those romaji versions make it look like they're different. In hiragana, おおぜき and せきとり show you that they really are the same but for the diacritical marks which turn せ into ぜ. The same happens with Oozumou which isn't Oosumou because of the 連濁 rendaku which changes the sound from そ to ぞ. Romaji is bad too for names like Shinya. Is that しんや or しにゃ? I suppose you could use Shinya and Shi-nya to differentiate between them but that generally isn't done. Many dictionaries will make the distinction for you in romaji but in general you won't see it in common use. It doesn't take long to learn hiragana, honestly 2-3 hours will do it, another hour at most to learn katakana and from there you'll find it much easier to get onto the long road to learning kanji but even there you can learn the 100 most important kanji that actually look like the word they represent in a few hours. It really isn't that hard. So I hope you understand that my aversion to romaji isn't based upon snobbery. It is because it is a 大関, a great barrier to properly learning Japanese rather than a 役に立つ橋 helpful bridge from English. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,185 Posted February 7, 2008 The same happens with Oozumou which isn't Oosumou because of the 連濁 rendaku which changes the sound from そ to ぞ. Erm... look again... Romaji is bad too for names like Shinya. Is that しんや or しにゃ? I suppose you could use Shinya and Shi-nya to differentiate between them but that generally isn't done. Many dictionaries will make the distinction for you in romaji but in general you won't see it in common use. Really bad example - Show me the fellow with the name-reading しにゃ and I show you parents who can't write properly. (As it seems to be the case with Dwyane Wade). Besides that I'm sure there are a few better, but far from convincing, examples. The much bigger problem with misleading words is that there are loads of words with same reading and different meaning where even hiragana doesn't help. What is こうこう for you? Using Romaji really doesn't add many problems to this. It doesn't take long to learn hiragana, honestly 2-3 hours will do it, another hour at most to learn katakana and from there you'll find it much easier to get onto the long road to learning kanji but even there you can learn the 100 most important kanji that actually look like the word they represent in a few hours. It really isn't that hard. Now that is clearly misleading - it takes way more than 2-3 hours until one is able to read it fluently (on a romaji reading level which is the important grading stick here). It just might have been different for you but I strongly doubt that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Randomitsuki 2,826 Posted February 7, 2008 At this point it's more an academic argument than anything else. For my part I never said not to use romaji or even that one should not use romaji. I was explicit about that in my original post. All I mean to say is that it's not that hard to figure it out for yourself -- assuming, of course, that you can see the characters correctly in the first place.Yes, romaji is probably easier to remember -- but please remember that I'm also writing from the perspective of someone who himself has no Japanese to speak of and generally can't read kanji either. Nor do I generally post anything in Japanese script. What I'm really advocating is to treat those instances of it here as a learning opportunity and not an occasion for complaint. Assuming, again, that the text appears as intended. I admit to being unable to fathom interest in ozumo combined with no interest in the Japanese language, although I don't disbelieve anyone who says this is the case for them. The two don't appear separable to me. What's a tad disappointing is that everyone jumped on the portion of my post over which the loudest argument was possible, while the part I really wanted to talk about was totally ignored. (Although a healthy argument can and probably has erupted over it. I was hoping for a quieter discussion on the merits.) All I said was that figuring it out is "not difficult." First of all, you cannot expect that people always discuss the stuff you want to have discussed, particularly not if you throw snippets into discussion that provoke a stronger reaction. I have a hard time swallowing your frequent claims of how incredibly easy it is to pick up Japanese characters, or that it is such an important thing that Japanese names are pronounced properly. Given such adamant assumptions, maybe some of your well-meant intentions to create "learning opportunities" came across as patronizing. Anyway, since the point you wanted to talk about was romanization, the lack of response to those parts of your original post might have three reasons I can think of: a) Many readers couldn't care less about proper pronunciation (and therefore, "proper" romanization); b) the difficulties that you've named were made from an Anglo-centric perspective, and that might not be totally representative of our community. To take an example, you said that "Hakuhoo" with a long vowel is a difficult concept for an English speaker because he or she might be inclined to rhyme Hakuhoo with ballyhoo. However, for me as a German, "oo" is just that - a long "o". So no problem there...; c) If there is any language that were in need of some rules for pronunciation, it would probably be English. Therefore it is a little odd (for me at least) to make such a fuss about different romanizations of Japanese. Would you also suggest that the English word "through" should be spelled "thru" so that nobody thinks that it rhymes with "dough" or "tough"? In some ways I can sympathize with your desire to pronounce Japanese words as good as you can. So do I try. But in any way I'd rather pick up pronounciation from watching the live stream or listening to Moti's audio banzuke than from necessarily imperfect spelling/romanization systems. That's why I can live perfectly with "Hakuho". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,185 Posted February 7, 2008 I can Google a different version with a number of display options including kanji/kana. Is this someone work in progress? I did that a few years ago as an exercise in MySql and PHP. Won't be available there for much longer as the server is doomed, but maybe this can be set up on the sumoforum server - I will have to ask Exil, I guess. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kaiguma 0 Posted February 7, 2008 (edited) It doesn't take long to learn hiragana, honestly 2-3 hours will do it, another hour at most to learn katakana and from there you'll find it much easier to get onto the long road to learning kanji but even there you can learn the 100 most important kanji that actually look like the word they represent in a few hours. It really isn't that hard.So I hope you understand that my aversion to romaji isn't based upon snobbery. It is because it is a 大関, a great barrier to properly learning Japanese rather than a 役に立つ橋 helpful bridge from English. Care to measure that statement against my points above? I guarantee you that some people on this forum would take 2 weeks to learn hiragana, and I would not pass any judgment on such a person as slow or anything else you could think of. Different people, different experience with language, different psychology, different schedule, different life, different speed. Maybe you learned hiragana and katakana in 3-4 hours. I did (and cemented it with 1 more week of daily drills) but others surely cannot. And even more simple, some people don't want to learn, whether because of time, having their plates full, another hierarchy of interests, etc. So we shouldn't complain if some people won't learn the available forms of phonetic Japanese script. Like it or not, you can come off as snobbish and people feel looked-down-upon with so much advocation bordering on 'there is no excuse for not learning hiragana and katakana.' Each form of Romaji may be imperfect in it's own right, but Romaji is the only universal tool we have. Live with it. On a positive note, I enjoy very much the occasional 'double', posting hiragana or katakana or kanji followed by (romaji). It helps reinforce my basic Japanese and teach new kanji now and then. I'm all for it, but just let people choose if they want to learn... Edited February 7, 2008 by kaiguma Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harry 67 Posted February 7, 2008 There are a few sneaky hiragana that look similar and it can take a while to see the little tails that differentiate る and ろ and め and ぬ etc. but really there are just 46 symbols (not including the 2 obsolete characters, and the variants with diacritical marks and the 'y' variants). If you start with them instead of having to unlearn romaji I really think you can learn to recognized them in an afternoon. Learning to write them legibly (and read messy handwriting) takes longer of course but most people just type these days. Shinya really is my friend's name and I have to be careful when typing it so I don't get it wrong. Almost any word with 'n' in it is rough with romaji, easy to mess up. Sure, こうこう may be 高校 or 孝行 or a bunch of other things which is why kanji is best for writing. When listening you must kept context in mind (senior high school and obedience to your parents are rarely confused) or sometimes ask the speaker what they mean. It happens in English too but much more frequently in Japanese. BTW, I don't believe Asians are somehow genetically predisposed to better learning of ideographic languages, they are just exposed to it more. A bit of experience in looking at kanji is all it takes to start seeing them as more than just scribbles. The main thing, if not the only thing, that you need is a will and an interest to do it. If you think you can't do it and/or aren't interested in it, then you won't learn it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Randomitsuki 2,826 Posted February 7, 2008 Once you get a little further into it you'll see why it is a bit misleading to give the romaji.For instance, the water the ozumo's drink, the "power water" is 力水, chikaramizu or power and water. But their kanji for hydroelectric power is 水力. So, do you think that word is mizuchikara in romaji? If you did, sorry but it is actually suiryoku. So, it is more complicated than learning a single reading to a character. I am a little confused with respect to the part that I've highlighted in your quote. Isn't that a perfect example of why giving kanji (rathen than romaji) is misleading? I for one have no problem distinguishing between the romaji words "chikaramizu" and "suiryoku". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harry 67 Posted February 7, 2008 (edited) Once you get a little further into it you'll see why it is a bit misleading to give the romaji.For instance, the water the ozumo's drink, the "power water" is 力水, chikaramizu or power and water. But their kanji for hydroelectric power is 水力. So, do you think that word is mizuchikara in romaji? If you did, sorry but it is actually suiryoku. So, it is more complicated than learning a single reading to a character. I am a little confused with respect to the part that I've highlighted in your quote. Isn't that a perfect example of why giving kanji (rathen than romaji) is misleading? I for one have no problem distinguishing between the romaji words "chikaramizu" and "suiryoku". No I disagree because 力 is power and 水 is water so 力水 is POWER WATER while 水力 is WATER POWER in kanji and it is easy to visually see the difference between power water and water power while chikaramizu and suiryoku need to be memorized or you need to know the different readings for power and water. You can more quickly remember it from the kanji without even using romaji or hiragana as an intermediate step. Now that you've learned the symbols for water and power you can use them for anything while memorizing "chikaramizu" as power water and "suiryoku" as hydroelectric power doesn't let you learn where in "chikaramizu" it says power and where it says water. For instance now you know something more about rikishi (力士) than you knew before as the first character means power. Edited February 7, 2008 by Harry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,319 Posted February 7, 2008 I can Google a different version with a number of display options including kanji/kana. Is this someone work in progress? I did that a few years ago as an exercise in MySql and PHP. Won't be available there for much longer as the server is doomed, but maybe this can be set up on the sumoforum server - I will have to ask Exil, I guess. I'm not sure if it's intentional, but the extended glossary is already mirrored to hoshitori.sumogames.com along with the rest of your site. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asojima 2,874 Posted February 7, 2008 I can Google a different version with a number of display options including kanji/kana. Is this someone work in progress? I did that a few years ago as an exercise in MySql and PHP. Won't be available there for much longer as the server is doomed, but maybe this can be set up on the sumoforum server - I will have to ask Exil, I guess. I'm not sure if it's intentional, but the extended glossary is already mirrored to hoshitori.sumogames.com along with the rest of your site. But the different version is more complete than the hoshitori.sumogames.com one. Both are missing the latter part of the alphabet. I would really welcome this as the forum glossary if we can merge the remaining definitions for the current glossary into the different version. PM me if there is a way I can help in doing this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,319 Posted February 7, 2008 No I disagree because 力 is power and 水 is water so 力水 is POWER WATER while 水力 is WATER POWER in kanji and it is easy to visually see the difference between power water and water power while chikaramizu and suiryoku need to be memorized or you need to know the different readings for power and water. You can more quickly remember it from the kanji without even using romaji or hiragana as an intermediate step. Now that you've learned the symbols for water and power you can use them for anything while memorizing "chikaramizu" as power water and "suiryoku" as hydroelectric power doesn't let you learn where in "chikaramizu" it says power and where it says water. For instance now you know something more about rikishi (力士) than you knew before as the first character means power. The thing is that, if by some some amazing coincidence, both chikaramizu and suiryoku were sumo terms, it would be quite possible to have a fruitful conversation about sumo without ever knowing that both are made up of the same two kanji. And that's the point people keep trying to make; this forum exists to enable a wildly international audience to talk about sumo, and the most expedient way to do that is by using a) English and b) romaji. Anything else is non-essential to the purpose of this forum. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,185 Posted February 7, 2008 I can Google a different version with a number of display options including kanji/kana. Is this someone work in progress? I did that a few years ago as an exercise in MySql and PHP. Won't be available there for much longer as the server is doomed, but maybe this can be set up on the sumoforum server - I will have to ask Exil, I guess. I'm not sure if it's intentional, but the extended glossary is already mirrored to hoshitori.sumogames.com along with the rest of your site. But the different version is more complete than the hoshitori.sumogames.com one. Both are missing the latter part of the alphabet. I would really welcome this as the forum glossary if we can merge the remaining definitions for the current glossary into the different version. PM me if there is a way I can help in doing this. Hmm, it's rare to get Asashosakari on a wrong foot that badly - hoshitori.sumogames.com always was and still is only a redirect, so it's really one and the same server. Which reminds me to ask Kofuji to change the redirect. (Neener, neener...) Regarding the glossary - until now the asking for a kanji glossary wasn't really livid, but it seems to change somewhat... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asojima 2,874 Posted February 7, 2008 But the different version is more complete than the hoshitori.sumogames.com one. Both are missing the latter part of the alphabet. I would really welcome this as the forum glossary if we can merge the remaining definitions for the current glossary into the different version. PM me if there is a way I can help in doing this. Must be a caching thing. I now get the same data on both URLs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,185 Posted February 7, 2008 But the different version is more complete than the hoshitori.sumogames.com one. Both are missing the latter part of the alphabet. I would really welcome this as the forum glossary if we can merge the remaining definitions for the current glossary into the different version. PM me if there is a way I can help in doing this. Must be a caching thing. I now get the same data on both URLs. No, it's because of a timeout of the script. This version was intended for searching (either by kanji, kana or romaji), whole glossary is too big to avoid the timeout. A static version would be better suited anyway for this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,319 Posted February 7, 2008 Hmm, it's rare to get Asashosakari on a wrong foot that badly - hoshitori.sumogames.com always was and still is only a redirect, so it's really one and the same server. Which reminds me to ask Kofuji to change the redirect. (Neener, neener...) Nah, I would have caught a redirect (like this) - a domain alias is harder to detect. (Neener, neener...) Point taken though, I didn't realize that hoshitori.* simply resolves to your server IP. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Randomitsuki 2,826 Posted February 7, 2008 [...] 力 is power and 水 is water so 力水 is POWER WATER while 水力 is WATER POWER in kanji and it is easy to visually see the difference between power water and water power while chikaramizu and suiryoku need to be memorized or you need to know the different readings for power and water. You can more quickly remember it from the kanji without even using romaji or hiragana as an intermediate step. Now that you've learned the symbols for water and power you can use them for anything while memorizing "chikaramizu" as power water and "suiryoku" as hydroelectric power doesn't let you learn where in "chikaramizu" it says power and where it says water. For instance now you know something more about rikishi (力士) than you knew before as the first character means power. Thanks for the clarification. However, we might still talk at cross-purposes here. I suppose our main difference is that you associate "learning Japanese" with reading and writing while I basically associate "learning Japanese" with talking. At least this would explain the preferences for kanji versus romaji. I agree that it is an interesting tidbit to know that the first kanji of "rikishi" is the same character as the first kanji of "chikaramizu". But I still fail to see why this helps me to understand Japanese language. So where is the practical use? Knowing the compounds of words doesn't seem a good strategy to rely on if you want to understand what was said. The combination of "power" and "water" could mean many things to someone as clueless as me. For all intents and purposes, besides the two meanings you have provided, the "power-water" combo could stand for the Japanese equivalent of Poseidon, for alcohol, or for strangury. I assume that for the same reason Babelfish translations are so weird - the Babelfish translator seems to have exactly the knowledge of Japanese you'd like to advocate. It knows all the compounds and strings them together. But it usually doesn't help me to extract the meaning. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harry 67 Posted February 7, 2008 (edited) [...] 力 is power and 水 is water so 力水 is POWER WATER while 水力 is WATER POWER in kanji and it is easy to visually see the difference between power water and water power while chikaramizu and suiryoku need to be memorized or you need to know the different readings for power and water. You can more quickly remember it from the kanji without even using romaji or hiragana as an intermediate step. Now that you've learned the symbols for water and power you can use them for anything while memorizing "chikaramizu" as power water and "suiryoku" as hydroelectric power doesn't let you learn where in "chikaramizu" it says power and where it says water. For instance now you know something more about rikishi (力士) than you knew before as the first character means power. Thanks for the clarification. However, we might still talk at cross-purposes here. I suppose our main difference is that you associate "learning Japanese" with reading and writing while I basically associate "learning Japanese" with talking. At least this would explain the preferences for kanji versus romaji. I agree that it is an interesting tidbit to know that the first kanji of "rikishi" is the same character as the first kanji of "chikaramizu". But I still fail to see why this helps me to understand Japanese language. So where is the practical use? Knowing the compounds of words doesn't seem a good strategy to rely on if you want to understand what was said. The combination of "power" and "water" could mean many things to someone as clueless as me. For all intents and purposes, besides the two meanings you have provided, the "power-water" combo could stand for the Japanese equivalent of Poseidon, for alcohol, or for strangury. I assume that for the same reason Babelfish translations are so weird - the Babelfish translator seems to have exactly the knowledge of Japanese you'd like to advocate. It knows all the compounds and strings them together. But it usually doesn't help me to extract the meaning. You're right that language is full of idioms so "fire water" or "power water" may mean something other than the literal reading. That said, I was just trying to instill some understanding into the words so that you could start to understand where they come from rather than having them as simple jargon. For full sentences it is difficult but I thought at least for simple things like the kimarite that I could help explain them so they could be figured out rather than just memorized. I will attempt to do that in my other thread and will leave it at that. If someone enjoys it, good, if not I take no offense. It interests me but perhaps it doesn't interest anyone else in which case I'll just drop it entirely. I'm done with the romaji argument. p.s. I wish I spoke Japanese more but I do read and type it more than listening or talking so you're also right that I have a bias that way. Edited February 7, 2008 by Harry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sasanishiki 57 Posted February 7, 2008 I've watched this debate mostly from a distance because it is not really one to which I can contribute - I have been a kana and kanji reader for 20 years and so am comfortable with the scripts being used. However, this does not mean that I think they should be used in most posts, as I acknowledge that a vast majority of the users in this forum are coming from a Roman script background in their native tongues. Although I note that Harry has just said he is done with the whole romaji argument, I thought it interesting that this started out mainly about the use of kanji in posts (such as shikona and kimarite) and that the usefulness of kanji, not to mention the interest that is apparent in some of the combinations, is the basis of a lot of Harry's posts. However, running parallel to that recently is his argument that it is not particularly difficult to get to a level to recognise hiragana. I don't see how learning hiragana is going to necessarily "solve" the issue of making the kanji used in posts more decipherable. Up until now most of the Japanese character useage in posts is kanji - having a reading knowledge of hiragana is not really going to help reading a kimarite, let alone a shikona, as the important parts are kanji. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites