Sumo articles by journalists who are Forum members/or not

[Doitsuyama 1,170]

Mark

Kyokutenho is the first yusho winner in the modern era to win his first yusho under a Japanese passport, having entered the sport as a non-Japanese.

This is soooo wrong. Akebono and Musashimaru had Japanese passports somewhere in 1995 or 1996 and won a combined 14 yusho as Japanese citizen. Or maybe I am defining modern era differently as Mark, but somehow I think fact checking isn't his forte.

[Mark.Buckton 68]

please read the sentence carefully once more. It was checked and is, I understand, correct.

It is easy to criticize - more difficult to acknowledge wrong.

[Asashosakari 18,157]

This is soooo wrong. Akebono and Musashimaru had Japanese passports somewhere in 1995 or 1996 and won a combined 14 yusho as Japanese citizen. Or maybe I am defining modern era differently as Mark, but somehow I think fact checking isn't his forte.

He did limit it to rikishi winning their career-first yusho after the naturalization process, Ake and Maru had already won some as foreigners before.

[Doitsuyama 1,170]

please read the sentence carefully once more. It was checked and is, I understand, correct.

It is easy to criticize - more difficult to acknowledge wrong.

Ok, that's true (barely, as only Musashimaru's first yusho was before naturalization). But for the sake of your arguments it really doesn't matter if the yusho is a first yusho or not. So it would only have been honest to acknowledge that it has happened multiple times before that a Japanese citizen yusho winner wasn't credited as such.

Nobody made a fuss about Asashoryu ending a seven year long period of Japanese only yusho winners in Kyushu 2002 (as Akebono in Haru 1995 was the last non-Japanese citizen before to win), and rightfully so as Akebono and Musashimaru never were perceived as Japanese despite having the passport; it's the same with Kyokutenho now.

Your comparison with the Olympics is a fallacy because the Olympics are all about nationalities (national olympic committees sending their athletes), and it's similar with practically all other sports, football teams representing nations and even amazumo teams coming from national federations. It's totally different in Ozumo as no national federations are involved. The NSK is in their own right to define the "shusshin" as they please. They might get in trouble for limiting foreigner slots and counting Japanese citizens as foreigners (they sure would in Europe) but this is a totally different matter. So it's pretty much only you and other people who want to get heard with their own opinion to announce Kyokutenho as a Japanese yusho winner.

[Manekineko 200]

Since we're debating semantics... was anyone else confused by "statistically" in:

Since they are statistically protected from being demoted

[Pandaazuma 1,301]

UNDER a Japanese passport?

[Sasanishiki 57]

"This means that come the first day of the Aki Basho in September and the unveiling of the yusho portraits for the Natsu Basho, and July's tournament in Nagoya, reporters, commentators and all those in the Japanese media covering the sport will be faced with a conundrum so often avoided in the world of sumo: nationality."

Will they? Why particularly then rather than now? The Natsu basho has just finished at the home of sumo, in close proximity to the major press organisations. I know that the yusho potraits brings attention to the previous two basho, but I wonder why any scrutiny of nationality would not take place now, in the afterglow of the tournament victory? For all we know, Kyokutenho could have a career ending injury and be almost a footnote in sumo history by the time September rolls around.

I sometimes think that we, the members of the forum, perhaps consider nationalism and nationality in ozumo a little more strongly than it should be. This perhaps reflects are positions as either: a) outsiders to Japan, or b) non-Japanese in Japan. The number of Japanese nationals (either originally or naturalised) on this forum is very low, so we perhaps project our nationalities and nationalisms on the rikishi, particulary the gaikoku shusshin ones.

[ryafuji 802]

UNDER a Japanese passport?

I fail to see what your point is here. There is absolutely nothing wrong in using the word 'under' in this context.

[Mark.Buckton 68]

Glad to have so many readers in the ranks of my usual detractors.

Certainly helps pay the bills.

There are of course many angles from which to view sumo, but regarding the nationality issue I can only think of two others on SF who are long term residents in Japan, have experience on the dohyo, and who have covered sumo for a national media outlet. I would be interested in their own take on this if they read it.

The ‘projection’ concept is interesting especially in as far as those above with no real experience or limited time in Japanese society goes.

That said, I had a few beers with 2 other writers covering sumo in Japan on Monday and both were holding off on this angle for now to see if and when it moves through the weeklies/regular papers. The discussions on this are out there in J-society but likely just off the radar of those viewing sumo from afar.

And of course - bit funny that Panda could not fathom my use of 'under'.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Otokonoyama

[Pandaazuma 1,301]

Mark, I 'fathomed' the use of the word very easily, in the same way that I always fathom what non-native speakers of English are trying to say when they misuse the language.

And your contention that one needs to live in Japan to appreciate certain things is both laughable and arrogant. In my experience, many of the contributors from this forum who do not live in Japan understand things as well as anyone can. And I say that as someone who has lived in Japan for a long time (although not from as far back as 1984, of course).

Edited May 31, 2012 by Pandaazuma

[Mark.Buckton 68]

misuse the language.

thanks for your opinion but it is lacking substance, examples proving misuse.

I do prefer to go with experience and professional editors though.

[ryafuji 802]

Mark, I 'fathomed' the use of the word very easily, in the same way that I always fathom what non-native speakers of English are trying to say when they misuse the language.

Sorry, still not getting it. What precisely is your objection to the word?

[Sasanishiki 57]

Moderator Notice

Let's not pick holes in particular word usage as there is quite a linguistic mix at play in the membership of the forum. Yes, this debate on a specific word has been undertaken by two native english speakers, but let's just face the facts that the article has been edited by others and has now been published. it's part of the public record, so let's debate the ideas, not nitpick the vocabulary here as it does not change the meaning of what the author wrote.

[ryafuji 802]

I thought Mark's article was an interesting one, and timely, as I'd just been having a discussion away from the forum with another SF member as to whether Tenho's victory could have been thought of as 'Japanese.'

[Kintamayama 43,577]

Some really nice pictures I've never seen before, but the site is a bit problematic with pictures of scantily clad women on both sides of the scantily -clad men. If you are morally offended by protruding nipples (of the women as well..) don't go there.

[Jakusotsu 5,500]

Some really nice pictures I've never seen before, but the site is a bit problematic with pictures of scantily clad women on both sides of the scantily -clad men. If you are morally offended by protruding nipples (of the women as well..) don't go there.

...or use AdBlock Plus, like I do. B-)

[Mark.Buckton 68]

Latest piece for Japan Times - the Sumo Scribblings column now in its 7th year.

(Also contains info on an upcoming interview with a former ozeki).

Cracking pic of Harumafuji from the Nagoya Basho - even if I do say so myself.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/ss20120728mb.html

[Naganoyama 5,750]

Looking forward to the Kotomitsuki interview!

[Kintamayama 43,577]

Takanoyama video:

http://fightlinker.c...-conquers-sumo/

http://thechive.com/...-his-way-video/

Edited August 30, 2012 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama 43,577]

Asahi Sunburn on the decline of new entrants.

[Asashosakari 18,157]

Does the shisho quoted at the end of the article not realize that the influx of foreigners has been even more limited in the last decade than that of Japanese rikishi? Fearing that the banzuke will be more gaijin-dominated in 10 years than it is now is pretty whack, unless he believes the recruitment floodgates will be opened again.

[Kintamayama 43,577]

Mark

[Jejima 1,208]

One factor that does not bode well for Harumafuji, however, involves his past records at the same Tokyo tournament as an ozeki. In the sport's second rank, he has never finished a September basho with double figures.

This is factually true, but it gives the impression that the September basho is his bug-bear. He has had three bashos at the rank of Ozeki in September, and never got double digits.

However, the three previous September bashos his records were....

2008: (S1E) 12-3 (Jun-Yusho)

2007: (K1W) 10-5 (Shukun-sho)

2006: (M6E) 11-4 (Jun-Yusho and Kanto-sho)

For the 2007 and 2008 bashos he would have met the top-rankers.

Using the same statistics, I could note that the September basho actually bodes well for Harumafuji, as he has got 2 out of his 3 career Jun-Yushos in September....

Edited September 9, 2012 by Jejima

[shumitto 418]

Using the same statistics, I could note that the September basho actually bodes well for Harumafuji, as he has got 2 out of his 3 career Jun-Yushos in September....

If one were to pin down the venue as the cause for poor results, then Kyushu would definetely be Harumafuji's bug-bear. His record over the last three years goes like this:

2009 - 9-6

2010 - 0-4-11

2011 - 8-7

But then again, his Ozeki-clinching basho was there. It has more to do with overall sub-par performance at the rank regardless of the place, with the exceptions of some bright spots here and there.

That is a common mistake amongst journalists, I guess. They find an interesting coincidence, but without a common ground linking them this piece of information is no more than a 'trivia fact'; maybe it was intended to be seen as such.

Edited September 9, 2012 by shumitto

[Jejima 1,208]

Using the same statistics, I could note that the September basho actually bodes well for Harumafuji, as he has got 2 out of his 3 career Jun-Yushos in September....

If one were to pin down the venue as the cause for poor results, then Kyushu would definetely be Harumafuji's bug-bear. His record over the last three years goes like this:

2009 - 9-6

2010 - 0-4-11

2011 - 8-7

But then again, his Ozeki-clinching basho was there. It has more to do with overall sub-par performance at the rank regardless of the place, with the exceptions of some bright spots here and there.

That is a common mistake amongst journalists, I guess. They find an interesting coincidence, but without a common ground linking them this piece of information is no more than a 'trivia fact'; maybe it was intended to be seen as such.

In 2010, he went 8-7 (the 0-4-11 was in November.)

Harumafuji has had had 10 bashos since his promotion to Ozeki when he has got 10 or more wins. As there are 6 basho a year, one would expect him to have got 1.666 bashos in September with 10 or more wins out of that lot. So probably 2 bashos. But with such a small sample pool, the stats are near to meaningless.

As I said, I could easily argue that September bodes well for him (also with too small a sample pool to have much meaning), using the same source of data.

I agree journalists do make mistakes, but I would also suggest that journalists look for a story, and then manipulate stats to support said story.... My main reason for the above post, was to suggest that Mark had been selective in his selection of data, and had been very careful to word his article to be factually correct, whereas he could equally have written his article favourably (using the same source of stats), if he had felt so inclined.

For what it is worth, my own opinion is that it has nothing to do with the venue (and I could probably use his career stats to 'prove' this, if I so wished), but with his current state of mind.