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aderechelsea

The "value" of the Sanyaku Rank

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i was checking the current Banzuke and noticed that from the 42 Makuuchi rikishi only 12 have never been to sanyaku at least once in their career.

Baruto

Takekaze

Kakuryu

Tochiozan

Yoshikaze

Kasugao

Toyohibiki

Homasho

Ichihara

Wakanoho

Goeido

Wakakirin

- the last 4 are at a career high position.

- Baruto, Tochiozan, Homasho and Toyohibiki are more than certain to get at least to Komusubi once in their career.

- Kakuryu is also very young and could have a great basho in a position to get him up there

- The two "Kazes" lack a bit of stature to make it easy but in the case of Take it is not out of the question.

soooooo ... now we get to my point:

KASUGAO is the oldest of the bunch and probably the only one in that will never make it because he is the biggest under-achiever in Makuuchi !!!!!

I am so frustrated !!!! he probably has the perfect "sumo body" and nage moves of the highest caliber .... what is wrong with this guy ..... Ow, the agony !!!!

( pointless topic ... i know ... )

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KASUGAO .... is the biggest under-achiever in Makuuchi !!!!!

I am so frustrated !!!! he probably has the perfect "sumo body" and nage moves of the highest caliber .... what is wrong with this guy

Gotta agree. I spent all of 2007 thinking, " The next basho will be the one where he finally takes off !" (Sign of approval...) (Blinking...)

He has now joined Jumonji, Futeno and Yoshikaze in my Cudaben a Contender bucket.

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i was checking the current Banzuke and noticed that from the 42 Makuuchi rikishi only 12 have never been to sanyaku at least once in their career.

I know highest ranks are always listed, but I wonder whether it would be a more useful indication of the peak of a rikishi to list highest rank at which kk was achieved.

So further to the list of those that have not been to sanyaku, 11 more have never achieved a kk at sanyaku level:

Toyonoshima

Kakizoe

Futeno

Iwakiyama

Takamisakari

Tokitenku

Takamisakari

Hokutoriki

Tamanoshima

Shimootori

Kaiho

And given this list - most of these will probably never achieve a sanyaku kk.

I agree with you on Kasugao, I always thought he would make it to Sanyaku, but hope is fading fast...

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So further to the list of those that have not been to sanyaku, 11 more have never achieved a kk at sanyaku level:

Toyonoshima

Kakizoe

Futeno

Iwakiyama

Takamisakari

Tokitenku

Takamisakari

Hokutoriki

Tamanoshima

Shimootori

Kaiho

It seems Takamisakari didn't make it TWICE..

I'm pretty convinced that Toyonoshima and Tokitenkuu (who will be Ozeki at some point..) will succeed in the nearest of futures. As for the others, well..no way.

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Tokitenku Ozeki? Never in a Gazillion years. Oysters.

@Bunjiman: That is a fantastic idea, much more telling than the current system. Of course, the current way of listing highest rank is very important to the traditions of Sumo hierarchy, so we can't expect anyone to do away with it entirely.

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Maybe nobody will agree, but besides the nage moves -very good indeed - and a suitable body for sumo Kasugao lacks some essential moves and thus there is not much more he can offer when it comes to oshi sumo or something different than what he has been used to do. Then, can he really be considered an underachiever ?

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Maybe nobody will agree, but besides the nage moves -very good indeed - and a suitable body for sumo Kasugao lacks some essential moves and thus there is not much more he can offer when it comes to oshi sumo or something different than what he has been used to do. Then, can he really be considered an underachiever ?

FWIW, Kasugao certainly looked strong enough to at least reach sanyaku back when he made his makuuchi debut, but the two-year injury tailspin he went into shortly after (knee, back, gout, etc., one nagging thing after another) pretty much reduced him to what he is now. Still, it's impressive enough that he managed to work his way back into a regular makuuchi role when he was already pushing 30, I'd say.

That said, he had plenty of deficiencies in his sumo even before the injuries hit, most notably his almost complete inability to deal with oshi-zumo opponents as Kaikitsune was fond of pointing out back then (gawd, has it really been almost five years?)...he's patched that up for the most part, but the injuries have pretty much cancelled out his gains of experience.

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I don't consider Kasugao an underachiever either. He does not possess much of an oshi attack at all and as far as yotsu-zumo is concerned he isn't too strong at it, is he? Very rarely do we see him producing a convincing yorikiri and it's not like he has been facing the sanyaku on a regular basis. His outstanding nage will make him stay in makuuchi for quite a long time though.

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oooooooooooook ......... so all of you that mention Kasugao's inability to do oshi sumo as an excuse for not calling him an underachiever must think that Hokutoriki is a skillfull yotsu guy :-)

or the rest of the makuuchi that reached sanyaku has a more "total" sumo.

he is an underachiever. And that hurts me more than you actually because i REALLY like this guy.

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I think that oshi-sumo guys such as Hokutoriki tend to very streaky, but when they do get on a roll they suddenly become extremely hard opponents to overcome for most of the makuuchi rikishi. I could never imagine Kasugao pulling off such a streak as Hokutoriki did when he came so close to actually taking the yusho. Hokutoriki also has got the ability to succeed by a well-timed pull-down more than most other rikishi. Therefore despite being much less technical than Kasugao I'm not surprised that Hokutoriki has enjoyed a more successful career. In other words: Very good oshi-sumo guys with very little else to offer will achieve more than outstanding nage guys with very little else to offer. Now of course some will rightfully argue that Hokutoriki can not be considered a very good oshi-sumo guy. :-)

Edited by messi19

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As for Kasugao, one must remember that he's Korean and learned Shirum (Korean version of "Sumo") from a young age. In Shirum, you wear a cloth belt that is wrapped around you and the bout starts from a standstill position with each competitor already with a firm two handed grip on that "belt". Nage is the norm in shirum - of course Kasugao is good at it. His problem lies in, as stated, his discomfort in facing oshi sumo guys or fast guys or strong tachi-ai guys or....

Let's face it, if he gets a good hold on the belt, he's got a better than average shot at winning against most makunouchi competitors. Problem is, he doesn't get that good hold often enough to be a consistent winner.

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@Bunjiman: That is a fantastic idea, much more telling than the current system.

I agree. Too many of the Sanyakus are "one and you are done" types, especially at Komosubi.

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@Bunjiman: That is a fantastic idea, much more telling than the current system.

I agree. Too many of the Sanyakus are "one and you are done" types, especially at Komosubi.

Would anyone volunteer to introduce an alternate highest rank table on their online database? Highest KK?

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@Bunjiman: That is a fantastic idea, much more telling than the current system.

I agree. Too many of the Sanyakus are "one and you are done" types, especially at Komosubi.

Would anyone volunteer to introduce an alternate highest rank table on their online database? Highest KK?

..or maybe just Komusubi not to be "considered" sanyaku..

If you remember the torikumi praktice - every basho begins on day 1 with bouts between the Yokozunae, Ozeki and Sekiwake, with their opponents starting from Komusubi and below. This just leaves me with the inpression that the Sekiwake raknk is considered part of the "top dogs", while Komusubi is somehow somethink more like Maergashira 0...

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If you remember the torikumi praktice - every basho begins on day 1 with bouts between the Yokozunae, Ozeki and Sekiwake, with their opponents starting from Komusubi and below.

Only when there are 9 or more active sanyaku, though...with <=8, generally one of the komusubi will face a maegashira opponent.

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Tokitenku Ozeki? Never in a Gazillion years. Oysters.

I don't know about Ozeki but I wouldn't rule it out.

I think he is extremely underrated, is still improving, doesn't have a serious injury history yet and as far as I can see has all the tools to AT LEAST at some point, do well at sanyaku.

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@Bunjiman: That is a fantastic idea, much more telling than the current system.

I agree. Too many of the Sanyakus are "one and you are done" types, especially at Komosubi.

Would anyone volunteer to introduce an alternate highest rank table on their online database? Highest KK?

..or maybe just Komusubi not to be "considered" sanyaku..

If you remember the torikumi praktice - every basho begins on day 1 with bouts between the Yokozunae, Ozeki and Sekiwake, with their opponents starting from Komusubi and below. This just leaves me with the inpression that the Sekiwake raknk is considered part of the "top dogs", while Komusubi is somehow somethink more like Maergashira 0...

A komusubi definitely does not carry the same respect as a sekiwake.

But, well, it doesn't much matter what we consider someone's rank to be, ne? One-time komusubi will still always be listed as sanyaku on any database. ;-)

Also, I believe there are a number of one-time sekiwake who were never komusubi and never achieved KK at a sanyaku rank. These rikishi will always be considered as Sekiwake even if it was a 9-6 from M2 that got them there for a result of 2-13.

So I am still very much interested in someone compiling a "Highest Maintained Rank Table."

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Tokitenku Ozeki? Never in a Gazillion years. Oysters.

I don't know about Ozeki but I wouldn't rule it out.

I think he is extremely underrated, is still improving, doesn't have a serious injury history yet and as far as I can see has all the tools to AT LEAST at some point, do well at sanyaku.

We shall see ;-)

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Also, I believe there are a number of one-time sekiwake who were never komusubi and never achieved KK at a sanyaku rank.

Hokutoriki or Hayateumi have never been Komusubi. The Sekiwake list at the Sumo Database reveals a few other rikishi who fullfill this assumption (K = 0).

Anjoboshi

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